Mono Nurgle... making it work.

[Plague _Lord]

So just like the mono tzeentch thread - let's talk about mono Nurgle. Can it work?

I myself have a large collection of nurgle stuff but haven't played daemons in years. 

- Is Epidemius a must?

- Are we too slow, but also not tanky enough?

- double GuO doable?

- Rotigus?

- How many plaguebearers is enough?

- Deepstriking plaguebearers?

- Nurglings!

- Beast any good?

- Is the tree an auto-take?

- PLague drones any good?

 

 

[WarriorFish]

Nurgle isn't my thing (at all), but I think Nurgle is in a decent position? I'm aware of some tricks you can use to speed the army up in auras but otherwise I think the general Daemon advice works. That is the rank and file need numbers, you can't go wrong with Greater Daemons, and be sure to get good character/support. I'm not familiar with the particulars but Nurgle Daemons seem to have a good choice in other FOC slots so a well rounded force should be possible?

 

I'm sure a Nurgle expert can fill you in on the details, I'll be interested in learning more too albeit from the other side of the table ;)

[Closet Skeleton]

I'm going to try and go 3/3 at a 1250 point 1 day tourmanent with a nurgle list next month with a Nurgle Daemons list. Its just about playing the mission and surviving.

 

I'm basically just taking 1 of everything (no special characters) except for 2 20 man plague bearer units. Gotta get 20 plague bearers and the 2 specialist heralds painted.

[N1SB]

I started playing Nurgle specifically early 8th, largely for lore reasons (but I also did win the inaugural Armies On Parade at my store for Monsters & Warmachines with them). The funny thing was they suited my very objective-based playstyle more than any other I've ever played. The only person not surprised was my friend, Tourney Tony in Toronto, who knew me well and was like "I told you so."

With the current 9th meta, these are EXACTLY the right questions:

- Are we too slow, but also not tanky enough?

Is Nurgle too slow? Certain units are, but I reckon that idea that Nurgle is slow as a whole comes from a bucket mindset where people think you have to bad in an area because you're too good in others i.e. you're tough, so you HAVE to be slow, otherwise it's not fair to all the other kids in class. Nurgle is NOT a monolith, let me demonstrate:


+++ Everyone forgets Mark of Nurgle Furies (but it's not a "gotcha") +++

This is not a "gotcha". I know it wasn't on the Original Post's list, because everyone forgets Furies are A Thing, for very reasonable reasons (they used to be an Undivided unit, they only had 1 metal miniature for decades, the new plastic ones only got mention in Warcry, etc.) Mark of Nurgle Furies are A Thing. I even had to Mark them with a Nurgling (shorty's hitchhiking off the tail of a Fury, Fury's like "get off my tail dude or imma shiv you") just to remind people.

Another reason it's not a "gotcha" is because they're not Nurgle-specific, even if they qualify for Mono-Nurgle. That's a fair point, this is just a reminder Furies exist.

Furies are one of the fastest units for any Chaos faction and people think Furies being only Toughness 3 is not very Nurgle, as in previous editions the Mark of Nurgle provides a Toughness buff. That's not the key to Nurgle survivability I've found, the key is in fact 5++ Invulnerable Save combined with a 5+++ Feel No Pain Save. They're a very annoying wall of ablative wounds to go through to get at my next unit...


+++ Nurgle Daemon Prince w/ Wings +++


A Daemon Prince of Nurgle is pretty much as fast as any Daemon Prince. Again, it's Mono-Nurgle without being Nurgle-specific, and you know why Daemon Princes are good. They happen to move at the same speed as Furies so I do think of them as a natural accompaniment, Furies are ablative wounds and soak overwatch, etc. Obvious choice, let's move on.


+++ Nurglings +++

I talk about the Speed of Light and the Speed of Night. Nothing arrives faster than the Speed of Light, but it will only find that darkness, like the Night, has been there the whole time, waiting, dancing itself away. That's Nurglings.

The MVP unit, Nurglings are the premier Objective-takers-and-holders not just for Daemons, but across the game, because Transports in both 8th and 9th ed are kinda a luxury. Nurglings take an Objective by using their infiltration ability to be there at the start of the game, getting their germs all over it with their sticky fingers. Again, low Toughness, but their survivability comes from their 5++ invuln save combined with their 5+++ Feel No Pain. Due to their unit-specific special rule, it only works on weapons with Damage 1, but imagine wasting Heavy Weapon shots on Nurglings. My friend Tourney Tony in Toronto described what it's like to waste Heavy Weapons on wasting Nurglings best, "It feels like killing an Afghan goat with a US$1 million missile."

Another great strength is what another good player friend of mine, Controller Eric, told me during a game, "They're invisible (like germs)." His point is, despite us constantly praising them, on the actual battlefield, they're so easy to overlook. They're seen as tarpits, bullet sponges, goats you don't want to shoot at with million dollar missiles. People think Nurglings are just there to distract away from the Daemon Prince, but no, my Daemon Prince is there to distract from the Nurglings, because the Nurglings are the game winners.

What I have a difference in opinion with others is that I don't personal believe in buying a HQ or other buff unit to enhance Nurglings, because it looks like they're not doing anything otherwise. They can't shoot, they don't deal enough damage in melee, etc. Here's the difference: I don't believe the Nurglings are doing nothing, they're definitely doing something, they're scoring Victory Points. They're doing the most important thing, but "they're invisible."

+++ Beasts of Nurgle, probably best-bang-for-the-points +++

Fast, genuinely Tough, many Wounds, they're even good offensively, they're probably the best-bang-for-the-points for Nurgle. However, I don't personally like the models (I actually think they're well-designed, but just not my style) and I have to convert my own. I actually did one for Blood Bowl using those giant flies...but I'm still not satisfied with it tbh.

That's all I got to say about that. I think they are, alongside Nurglings, the best Nurgle has to offer gameplay-wise, better value than Daemon Princes in points cost, but I don't like the models so far. Would definitely recommend people taking them if they actually are okay with the models. So I'd like to move on to this question:

+++ Nurgle not Tanky enough? +++

From playing, this has started becoming a concern of mine. This section is the most important, but relatively short, because I don't think I have a great answer.

9th ed has proven way more lethal than previous editions (maybe late-2nd ed was because there were some really powerful combinations, it's hard to remember that far back, and games were much longer, so that skews things). Nurgle Daemons, even Nurglings, are still one of the Tankiest factions, but the lethality is such that it no longer seems as significant. Everyone and their cousin are handing Mortal Wounds everywhere. Lots of cheap Damage 2 weapons out there now that are the bane of Nurglings.

But it's not all one way. We score Victory Points per Turn after the 1st, that benefits Nurglings. Scoring Objectives early has become more important than ever. And it's more fun this way, but it's like our competitive advantage of survivability seems less now, simply because the whole meta is more dangerous. I'm still winning.

One thing I'm watching out for in the future: Death Guard had their Feel No Pain changed, will the same happen to Nurgle Daemons? That'll be a seismic change and I think we need to re-evaluate all of this.

I'm going to try and go 3/3 at a 1250 point 1 day tourmanent with a nurgle list next month with a Nurgle Daemons list. Its just about playing the mission and surviving.

That is the way. I just did an experiment with our Warhammer Store manager with his crazy Eldar Wraithlord list that decimated everyone and I beat him via Objectives.

Obvious but important point that Nurgle players will forget to mention because it's so obviously important: that Take All Corners (really just 3, but it sounds better as Take All Corners) Secondary Objective is great with Nurglings, and it's the go-to we choose when Secondary Objectives are in play.

Again, a short response here just because I'm piggybacking Brother Closet Skeleton's point, it's just about playing the mission and surviving.

[WarriorFish]

That didn't take long Yes, missions are always important and with the game being so deadly now all the more so. It's why for Daemon Troop units the only survivability is numbers - it says much that Nurgle's additional durability is of little help here...

 

I wish Slaanesh had a little gribbly unit like Nurglings, as these are great for objectives as noted (Daemonettelings?).

[Plague _Lord]

Amazing pst N1SB!

 

I agree that we have nice tools to mitigate our percieved slowness and furies are of course great action monkeys and backfield objective holders!

 

How do you feel about plaguebearers?

Units of 30 to clog midfield objectives and flood the board or maybe small units of 10 just to grab objectives?

Deepstrike bomb?

I think it's easy to overinvest in the buff charachters for them - the scrivener and the bilepiper, but their buffs seem to make them a real chore to move. Rolling 2 dice for morale, fishing for 1s to get back d6 plaguebearers from the icon seems tasty, while +2 movement and +1 to hit also seems nice to have. We are then paying 160 pts for 2 charachters that won't do much in the fight phase and I'm not sure taking them is worth it.

[WarriorFish]

I am still working around characters - they are a really important part of how Daemons work but the balance seems hard, or at least for Slaanesh. Perhaps this is more due to the age and attention of the codex but they seem somewhat lacklustre, trying to get the most from them can lead to detriment elsewhere. For example the Infernal Enrapturess has a small chance of bringing back a model from nearby units, but is of little help in combat so ends up not getting to use it as the Daemonette squads must move as fast as they can (before they completely evaporate from the table).

 

I agree that they can be a bit of a trap if you're not careful. I think I need to get round to a Herald or two as a cheaper aura unit option as Daemons are reliant on them. As for the specialised characters I think that they need the right place/list. This will naturally come with experience though so getting games in first is what would count here

 

For the Plaguebearers; see my evaporation comment above While they're not as squishy as Daemonettes I don't think they'll last all that much longer but I tend to look at Troops more holistically so it's more about how you divide up your models in squads once you hit the "required" total. As another example at 1,000 points I had 41 Daemonettes and they died like flies and did next to nothing. My thinking is that one or two larger squads as the main dish, with 10 model squads to support and be mobile/expendable is the way to go?

 

A larger squad also gives the Icon more chance to be useful, as they seem quite expensive for what you get (as in it seems better to spend the points on more models directly). Daemons are an aged codex with limited options, but still have some punch even if a lot of this is opponents unused to dealing with them So it may depend on how competitive you want to be, I gather the "best" thing is loading up on Greater Daemons and lobbing in Be'lakor (aside from them all being great models)?

[N1SB]

I saw your posts and I'm glad I waited to think about it because I think you're both right.

 

If I was to take Plaguebearers, it would be a large 20 or 30 unit blob to Deepstrike, probably even with a buffing Character.  That combination of blob + Deepstrike + buff is where it becomes worth it, probably.  I would probably take that combo to contest the opponent's home objective.  The increased lethality of 9th ed is a concern in that are Plaguebearers Tough enough to pose a threat, and I think 20 or 30 with support are.  Either they succeed, which would be awesome, or even if they fail they blunted the opponent enough so then the Nurglings could dance victoriously in back.  That seems to be the best use of Nurgle units that are not Nurglings or Beasts of Nurgle, imho.

 

I was thinking if I would put them in the mid-field.  Let's say I want to protect the mid-field Objective...I'd still Deepstrike the Plaguebearers in the opponent's face and have Nurglings in the mid-field, then by the time they reach the mid-field the opponent's forces would be reduced and I'd hit them with a Daemon Prince or Beasts of Nurgle.  I think that's what I'd do.

 

I've been seriously thinking about putting some Plaguebearers in the way you're discussing it since the start of 9th, didn't quite get around to it because...sadly and kinda ironically...of the real life pandemic.  Now that time has passed, there's something else that came up that I'm really thinking about.  This is where I know I'm deviating from the topic, but I do so because it's significant.

 

Here's where I deviate from mono-Nurgle a second because it's important: the recent Balance Datasheet made Chaos Armigers/Warhounds ObSec-ish (each counts as 5 models).  The melee version, which is what I'd take for ObSec'ing, is like 140 points and move 14".  That's like the same price of 15 Plaguebearers with an Icon edit - Instrument, but you guys know what I meant, or even 4 Beasts of Nurgle.  But y'know what, if anything, that kinda reinforces the idea bout Deepstriking Plaguebearer Bomb, at least that's something an Armiger can't do, I still think that's a good idea.

Edited December 16, 2021 by N1SB

[WarriorFish]

I agree, I have kept thinking about the Deepstrike Stratagem (not just as an excuse to use more than the pitiful normal amount) but currently lack the models. Such a move should be done with gusto so I'd take a large squad and spring for an Icon (you never know it might help, in for a penny in for a pound) and see what mischief they can cause. This is where a cheaper character like a Herald would be handy too, if you wanted some support.

 

With a musician and a Command Point re-roll in your pocket you could line up a charge too if there is a worthwhile opportunity. The squad is likely not long for real-space regardless so may as well make it count if there's any potential? Your opponent will have to deal with them one way or another, as even if there are chaff units they have to work through they'll still be working towards something (probably objectives).

[Closet Skeleton]

Got back from my 1250 tournament.

 

Played 5 games, 2 on the day before with Open War cards and 3 in the event with unusual custom missions. Won 4/5 with the only loss being against Orks on the top table in the last round. My opponent came 3rd while I was 26/80 despite only losing at around 54 to 68 points so that last round must have been a big swing to drop me 14 places (I actually got more points from my loss than from my 2nd win and yet somehow my opponent still had enough points to only drop 2 places despite a close defeat).

 

Having a 5 strong Nurgling unit to deploy forwards won me all the objective games. Last came had no objectives, just score points for units alive and units killed. My opponent had 10 more power level so was 14 ahead in spite of only killing 2 units to the 1 I killed, If I had a ranged killy army that power level difference would be in the opposite direction. I basically shut down the entire Ork army by charging his deffkopters with my nurglings while I hid in a corner protected by a Ruin that shut down all his melee vehicles and cavalry. My GUO managed to kill his teleporting Kill Rig in close combat and surviving the turn 4 charge from the Squigasaur Warboss and Squighogs but rolled garbage for damage against the Warboss (which in the end was my only shot of winning). Turn 5 I pulled the GUO back and stuck 20 Plague Bearers in the way but ended up losing both them and a Herald. If I'd placed the Herald better and rolled better on saves it would have been a draw but that would probably just deny my opponent 3rd place and move me 4 places up.

 

Only had 2 games where I actually managed to kill much, 1 Open War game against Khorne Daemons who I butchered and another against Skorpek and Nightbringer Necrons. I fought Necrons twice, once in Open War and once in the tournament and the Open War game was against a similar Skorpek list except with a Walker and two Shooty destroyers and that list almost tabled me and I only managed to kill 1 unit of 3 Wraiths.

 

I don't think my nurgling tactic would work with the GT pack's lack of first turn Primary scoring and the possibility of running into White Scars Vanguard Veterans.

 

I wouldn't have been able to win any of those games if they were GT mission pack ones and had almost no chance the moment the mission had no objectives.

[WarriorFish]

That's a good result, well done! Only losing one game would be a good result for any army too :) It is a hard game sometimes without guns as the missions can be a bit sink or swim but so it goes. Could you post your list for completeness please, as this would help those working on their Nurgle lists?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yeah, that sounds like a really good showing - thanks for sharing - regardless of your ultimate results in their rather arcane scoring system.  As per Warrior Fish, any further details you might provide regarding your list, your opponents and your games would be appreciated.

[Closet Skeleton]

List was just

 

Battalion

Great Unclean One with bell and knife, relic book for extra spell, -1 to hit him from nearby warlord trait, roll 2 exalted traits. Can't say any of these were worth copying as choices. Bell hard to use and too random to be worth it over the sword.

 

Bile Piper

 

Scrivener

 

Summoning Points for Poxbringer

 

20 Plaguebearers with full command, this was too few as it lost me the -1 to hit almost immediately but it was a casual event and I was trying not be be obnoxious (plus I only own 40 anyway)

 

Another 20 with the banner upgrade cp

 

5 Nurglings in a squad

 

3 Beasts of Nurgle

 

3 Rot Flies

 

So I basically already summerised it. If I mostly hadn't just bought 1 start collecting box, 1 Age of Sigmar limited release infantry box and some extras I could have written a nastier list.

 

Scoring was way less arcane than the GT mission pack.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Plague _Lord]

I think GuO are probably a pain to deal with in low points games.. virtually unkillable so just don't let him get bogged down and waltz him into the enemy home objective.