Aggressors

[Kouran]

Hello Brothers,

 

I was looking for the best way to maximize our +5 invu vow and I tried the assault centurions with moderate success, most of the time coming out of a LRC. They are ok, but to many points paired with the transport. So I stated using them just moving and advancing with a Chaplain for the +2 charge (not sure if legal btw). Similar result  but better priced. 

 

So as an evolution of this idea, I think maybe the aggressors with a chaplain give better result, they are T5, 3A and 3W, and are CORE and five come at 225 with the bolter gauntlet (200 points with flamers), so you can buff them with captains, lieutenants, and most important with chaplain litanies, so 5fnp, etc are available.   And you have access to the Mark X Gravis strat that gives you +1 armor to 1d weapons , our codex flamer strat if you equip them with the flamers, make them obsec and of course the rest of the  marine pack, transhuman.... It looks to me that they are very durable and a big menace.  Better this than assault cent, or termis or a 20 primaris crusaders? I think they are the cheapest of the options to control or press the mid board.

 

Have you tried them? In that case with flamers or bolters? And in groups of 3, 5 or more?

 

Thanks for your feedback!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya...you can't use prayers on Centurions.

 

The whole issue with Centurions is they lack Core and lose a lot of avenues for buffing. The chapters that can make them work are able to deliver them via reserves and have them just use chapter tactics and doctrine.

 

Black Templars don't do any of that. They don't get a doctrine or chapter tactic to juice a units melee. They don't get reliable delivery. And they very much concentrate on buffing core units with prayers and strats. Aggressors are a better fit for templars.

[CrystalSeer]

I'm planning on using them. There's all the reasons already stated, plus, a couple of the relics stack really well with them. Icon of Heinman can pair with the +1 save strat so you get a 2+ save ignoring -1 and -2ap.

 

Seal of Sigismund also really amps up the powerfists.

[Tokugawa]

Against mass -1d power fists are ridiculously bad. Have you read the newest additional tyranids rules?

[Brother Kraskor]

I guess our unique strat makes the flamers almost irresistible right. Though probably not to the extent that you'd build Chaplain support around it with Catechism of Fire I'd have thought (but then again maybe!). 

[Tiger9gamer]

Honestly even with the flamer strat I would prefer to go with the autobolters. Longer range, a solid 6+d6 str 4 shots, ability to be buffed with a chaplain, and a good use for the emperor’s will stratagem (allows them to run and fire at full BS) IF you really need to hit something. Plus the frag launchers are already blast, so you don’t need to use a strat to make their weapons blasts. Pretty cool if you ask me!

[CrystalSeer]

Against mass -1d power fists are ridiculously bad. Have you read the newest additional tyranids rules?

In my last 35 games I've come across -1dmg I think twice? Not that concerned.

 

Against Tyranids, I'd think the mass bolt shots would be useful anyway.

[Tiger9gamer]

Plus, it’s still STR 8 and AP -3 right? Even if the damage gets nerfed, there is a higher chance to wound monstrous creatures and death guard easier than if you bring a power axe or something

[BloodyB]

Everyone and their mother seems to be getting -1 Damage, and it's kind of getting me down of late, but Aggressors still do fine anti-horde work in shooting alone. I think that Aggressors tend to be slightly harder to shift innsome ways than Centurions, as many of my opponents try to avoid using damage 2 weapons, since they end up being slightly inefficient comparatively speaking. It is almost entirely psychological, but something to be mindful of.

 

Aggressors rather struggle to deal with bigger things, but then again, that's why the God-emperor gave us Eradicators, no?

[Captain Idaho]

Issues with Aggressors for any Chapter... -1 to hit in melee. Hitting on a 4+ is very weak for an elite unit that needs to make its hits counts.

 

For Black Templars, the decent melee options really are Vanguard with jump packs (decent for ANY Chapter), Bladeguard, Crusader squads of all types and Terminators depending on build.

 

The Terminator options require specific use - dropping in well supported or in high numbers with a Chaplain seems like Strategy to use with them, but if you're jumping out of a Land Raider anyway then Assault Terminators can make a real mess out of a target.

 

Personally I'd use a Chaplain and teleport them in with higher numbers over the extra points cost of a Land Raider.

 

But that's very specific. The other options are very useful to most Black Templars lists though.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Issues with Aggressors for any Chapter... -1 to hit in melee. Hitting on a 4+ is very weak for an elite unit that needs to make its hits counts.

 

For Black Templars, the decent melee options really are Vanguard with jump packs (decent for ANY Chapter), Bladeguard, Crusader squads of all types and Terminators depending on build.

 

The Terminator options require specific use - dropping in well supported or in high numbers with a Chaplain seems like Strategy to use with them, but if you're jumping out of a Land Raider anyway then Assault Terminators can make a real mess out of a target.

 

Personally I'd use a Chaplain and teleport them in with higher numbers over the extra points cost of a Land Raider.

 

But that's very specific. The other options are very useful to most Black Templars lists though.

 

?

 

You just walk with your main brick, with your support characters behind them. The chaplain solves the hit problem and adds extra durability with the 5++. The more stuff on the field, the worse the target priority is going to be. 

[Tiger9gamer]

 

Issues with Aggressors for any Chapter... -1 to hit in melee. Hitting on a 4+ is very weak for an elite unit that needs to make its hits counts.

 

For Black Templars, the decent melee options really are Vanguard with jump packs (decent for ANY Chapter), Bladeguard, Crusader squads of all types and Terminators depending on build.

 

The Terminator options require specific use - dropping in well supported or in high numbers with a Chaplain seems like Strategy to use with them, but if you're jumping out of a Land Raider anyway then Assault Terminators can make a real mess out of a target.

 

Personally I'd use a Chaplain and teleport them in with higher numbers over the extra points cost of a Land Raider.

 

But that's very specific. The other options are very useful to most Black Templars lists though.

 

?

 

You just walk with your main brick, with your support characters behind them. The chaplain solves the hit problem and adds extra durability with the 5++. The more stuff on the field, the worse the target priority is going to be. 

 

 

 

Issues with Aggressors for any Chapter... -1 to hit in melee. Hitting on a 4+ is very weak for an elite unit that needs to make its hits counts.

 

For Black Templars, the decent melee options really are Vanguard with jump packs (decent for ANY Chapter), Bladeguard, Crusader squads of all types and Terminators depending on build.

 

The Terminator options require specific use - dropping in well supported or in high numbers with a Chaplain seems like Strategy to use with them, but if you're jumping out of a Land Raider anyway then Assault Terminators can make a real mess out of a target.

 

Personally I'd use a Chaplain and teleport them in with higher numbers over the extra points cost of a Land Raider.

 

But that's very specific. The other options are very useful to most Black Templars lists though.

 

?

 

You just walk with your main brick, with your support characters behind them. The chaplain solves the hit problem and adds extra durability with the 5++. The more stuff on the field, the worse the target priority is going to be. 

 

Pretty much this! I was thinking an apothecary and tannhousern chapter master myself. Solves melee and shooting all at once, and can give the option for a Storm of fire warlord trait (unless you go iron resolve for his Trait)

[Captain Idaho]

Although they don't have the bolter fire, Bladeguard arguably do the job of walking up the table better as they're more survivable and better in melee. Those bolter shots could be useful but do you really need them in a Marine army?

 

And any benefits you use characters to help your Aggressors will work on other choices, or be able to be points saved... ;)

[Kouran]

Black Templar Bladeguard doesn't benefit of our +5 vow, I was looking for units that could benefit from it, to give units a different take than the rest of marine chapters, but I agree that bladeguard is an excelent choice (as with any marine army) for this role.

[Charlo]

Agressors aren't really made to shine in melee imo. They're first and foremost a unit that crushes things under weight of fire in the shooting phase and then survives retaliation through some great defenses. The power fists in melee are the cherry on top to make hardy opponents think twice.

 

I really like them Advancing and flaming stuff down and sitting on objectives.

 

The vow for 5++ is super good on them, though mini transhuman is less useful with them being T5

Edited December 23, 2021 by Charlo

[SkimaskMohawk]

Black Templar Bladeguard doesn't benefit of our +5 vow, I was looking for units that could benefit from it, to give units a different take than the rest of marine chapters, but I agree that bladeguard is an excelent choice (as with any marine army) for this role.

Charlo already touched on the fact that it's hard to find a good melee unit that's going to receive full benefit from Uphold. It's either t4 with a lot of invul, or t5 without. I think crusader squads or sword bros are the only dedicated melee units that double dip fully.

 

That being said, the important bit is you want to use units that aren't just taken in other chapters, presumably meaning vanguard and bladeguard. So aggressors fit in that category for sure. But, for either 3 points more or 2 points less (depending on gun), you can get yourself a thss terminator. As a melee unit they're pretty superior, especially when juiced with a relic bearer.

[Tiger9gamer]

I don't get the idea of not using units like SS vanguards or bladeguard just because they don't completely benefit from the uphold vow. I mean they still hit like a truck, can take mini relics and mega relics, can take litanies, can do everything else... so why throw out the baby with the bath water? just take things like them and know that other units would be protected, like dreads, tanks and crusader squads.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

For sure and their offensive output can’t be ignored either… always well worth their points.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Brother Kraskor]

I don't get the idea of not using units like SS vanguards or bladeguard just because they don't completely benefit from the uphold vow. I mean they still hit like a truck, can take mini relics and mega relics, can take litanies, can do everything else... so why throw out the baby with the bath water? just take things like them and know that other units would be protected, like dreads, tanks and crusader squads.

 

I guess the idea is you are effectively paying twice for an Invul. Yes you get +1 armour and a better Invul, but purely from a points efficiency standpoint BT have unique options in giving things which don't customarily have Invul (and therefore don't pay points for it) an Invul save. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

I don't get the idea of not using units like SS vanguards or bladeguard just because they don't completely benefit from the uphold vow. I mean they still hit like a truck, can take mini relics and mega relics, can take litanies, can do everything else... so why throw out the baby with the bath water? just take things like them and know that other units would be protected, like dreads, tanks and crusader squads.

I guess the idea is you are effectively paying twice for an Invul. Yes you get +1 armour and a better Invul, but purely from a points efficiency standpoint BT have unique options in giving things which don't customarily have Invul (and therefore don't pay points for it) an Invul save.

I think the main idea is not using the standard marine good melee units like the vanguard and bladeguard. Instead, OP is trying to make some distinct black templar melee units work.

[Tiger9gamer]

 

I don't get the idea of not using units like SS vanguards or bladeguard just because they don't completely benefit from the uphold vow. I mean they still hit like a truck, can take mini relics and mega relics, can take litanies, can do everything else... so why throw out the baby with the bath water? just take things like them and know that other units would be protected, like dreads, tanks and crusader squads.

 

I guess the idea is you are effectively paying twice for an Invul. Yes you get +1 armour and a better Invul, but purely from a points efficiency standpoint BT have unique options in giving things which don't customarily have Invul (and therefore don't pay points for it) an Invul save. 

 

no, still seems silly to me. You would have a good unit regardless of the vow, have a stronger unit with better armor and invuln which is more forgiving with the dice, and it's something you would take anyways cause they're proven to be good. you're army is more than one unit, so if one unit doesn't get the full effect of a vow then it's no biggy, because it's one unit.

 

 

 

I don't get the idea of not using units like SS vanguards or bladeguard just because they don't completely benefit from the uphold vow. I mean they still hit like a truck, can take mini relics and mega relics, can take litanies, can do everything else... so why throw out the baby with the bath water? just take things like them and know that other units would be protected, like dreads, tanks and crusader squads.

I guess the idea is you are effectively paying twice for an Invul. Yes you get +1 armour and a better Invul, but purely from a points efficiency standpoint BT have unique options in giving things which don't customarily have Invul (and therefore don't pay points for it) an Invul save.

I think the main idea is not using the standard marine good melee units like the vanguard and bladeguard. Instead, OP is trying to make some distinct black templar melee units work.

 

Yea, I can understand that more. Aggressors are great for this now. had a game where a squad of 3 w/ champion of the feast managed to kill a redemptor turn one, and wipe out a heavy intercessor squad

 

[Brother Kraskor]

 

 

I don't get the idea of not using units like SS vanguards or bladeguard just because they don't completely benefit from the uphold vow. I mean they still hit like a truck, can take mini relics and mega relics, can take litanies, can do everything else... so why throw out the baby with the bath water? just take things like them and know that other units would be protected, like dreads, tanks and crusader squads.

 

I guess the idea is you are effectively paying twice for an Invul. Yes you get +1 armour and a better Invul, but purely from a points efficiency standpoint BT have unique options in giving things which don't customarily have Invul (and therefore don't pay points for it) an Invul save. 

 

no, still seems silly to me. You would have a good unit regardless of the vow, have a stronger unit with better armor and invuln which is more forgiving with the dice, and it's something you would take anyways cause they're proven to be good. you're army is more than one unit, so if one unit doesn't get the full effect of a vow then it's no biggy, because it's one unit.

 

 

I'm not saying it's the best approach. But I am saying that purely from a points efficiency perspective, it is less optimal taking a unit with an innate Invul save if you intend to Uphold. That's just a fact! It doesn't speak at all to the effectiveness of such a list.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Brother Kraskor

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I disagree because 4++ is much more reliable than 5++. And as stated units like hammernators, BGV and VV inherently have the highest melee damage output.

[Brother Kraskor]

I don't think you understand my point. I'm literally not assessing the viability of one unit against another. I am saying that purely from a points efficiency perspective, if you take Uphold and then a unit which already has an Invul save (whether equal or better than 5++), you are not making the most points-efficient list. This is objectively the case! It's not a groundbreaking point either, all I wanted to say was I understand the appeal of Invulless units in a BT context for this reason.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Still disagree - there are no real substitutes for the units I listed besides possibly Cents (obviously my opinion). Edited December 24, 2021 by Black Blow Fly