Aggressors

[Brother Kraskor]

Right. I will try and make it simpler:

 

GW has baked the cost of Invul saves into their units. Let's imagine for a unit of 5 guys (literally doesn't matter who) that's 20pts.

 

I take Uphold. Sweet, my entire army now has Invul, and I haven't paid any points for it.

 

Except I have these five guys who already had an Invul, and I paid 20pts for it. In the case of a unit with 5++, all those points are wasted, because everyone has got it for free anyway. In the case of a unit with 4++, at least some of those points are wasted, because they only have a 16% better save but they've paid full points for it. 

 

It's not a matter of opinion. It's not an assessment of one unit vs another in any other way. It is a fact (and a banal one at that but it seems to be complicated this evening!) that taking units with Invul saves and Uphold is less points efficient. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You are ignoring the loss of the benefit of cover due to the passion. I played a game recently vs Emperor’s Children … AP1 en masse hurts. Let’s just agree to disagree. I have never been a fan of mathammer in a vacuum.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Charlo]

Sword Brethren are the obvious elephant in the room. Getting a 5++ and the ability to benefit from cover is really nice.

 

They don't have the raw output or survivability of Bladeguard, but D2 in the current meta is slowly but surely losing its inherent power as -1D abilities become more widespread.

 

Not to mention, they have a couple bits of fun stratagem support.

[Brother Kraskor]

You are ignoring the loss of the benefit of cover due to the passion. I played a game recently vs Emperor’s Children … AP1 en masse hurts. Let’s just agree to disagree. I have never been a fan of mathammer in a vacuum.

 

Nobody except SB are getting cover if you take Uphold! I think we are going to have to agree to disagree because you're clearly not getting what I'm trying to say. Nevermind eh! 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah just agree to disagree… and you didn’t understand my comment regarding cover.

[CrystalSeer]

The issue of points efficiency of 4++ units is kind of a red herring,

 

The point of the vow is that everyone gets a save. It gets better the more troops you have. If you go nuts and throw 60 crusaders on the field, every single one gets the save.

 

Given that, points abstractions on units is less important than whether or not they contribute to the main goal, which is having a numerically large force that is difficult to kill.

 

Back on topic, I like aggressors for this for two main reasons. First, their stats, numbers, and upgrades make them difficult to remove. You potentially need a weapon of AP3 or higher, strength 5+, and damage of 2+. That's basically plasma, but not many people are taking plasma. Even if they do, you get a 5++ and likely a 5 or 6+++, and transhuman for 1cp. That takes what is likely their best firepower and reduces it by around 60 percent. Everything else fairs worse.

 

Second, they get a ton of firepower and decent attacks that make them a good bully unit. They're not going to outpunch dedicated melee hitters, but they are likely to trade well against numbers, which is a weak point for most Marines. Basic stats on str4 shots aren't that impressive, but chaplain or CM buffs up their potential rapidly.

Edited December 26, 2021 by CrystalSeer

[Marshal Mittens]

I think the real issue is that in the current meta, AP is everywhere. Almost every army can do army wide AP -1, and its very common to fight lots of AP -2 to AP -4. And a lot of armies can improve their Ap by like 1 or 2. This means that in a lot of cases you often don't have a save. So where as a 5++ used to not be amazing, its often the only save you will get now, and so its very good.

 

I really like Uphold because it gives a lot of units viability if they can't tame storm shields or have an invul from some other source.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Uphold really shines for armor but does nothing for AP1 or AP2. In fact you lose the 4+ save versus AP2 in cover. Really depends on how you build your list.

[CrystalSeer]

That's a good point. If infantry, you're only coming out on top if the enemy is -3 AP or wounds you on 2's. How many armies have this as the baseline?

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's a good point. If infantry, you're only coming out on top if the enemy is -3 AP or wounds you on 2's. How many armies have this as the baseline?

That's kind of the wrong approach to take. It's more like how many of their main threats have either of those qualifiers against your main units. It honestly doesnt matter too much if your 5 man msu is getting a save compared to your redemptors or crusader blobs.

 

That's why it's better to build a more balanced force and take "unoptimal" Uphold units like bgv, thss terminators and vanguard in addition to aggressors or redemptors or crusaders. That way you can benefit from Uphold when you need to, and can flex out of it if you run into thousand sons or Tyranids.

[Prot]

The points efficiency argument is really a tough one because we all know points aren’t equal. We have to remember GW wants to sell some models more than others ( which as a side note is a tragedy for Centurions because I loved them from day one)

 

Anyway I think Blade Guard have, since inception, been exceptionally well costed. If you guys recall,  back in the early days of ninth, this unit was always complained about by non marine players. But damage has escalated, and it feels like BG and VG Vets are two of the rare units that keep marines in the semi competitive arena. 
 

The other considerations here for BT are not necessarily the Vows, but perhaps the amazing Litanies and relics specific to the army make the decision a little easier. 
 

I know in my Ultra games it’s hard not to take Aggressors. I feel like a similar consideration has to be Sword Brethren for Templars. Someone said it earlier but at least you get to ignore the Vow negatives. I’m a sucker for signature units, but I think I’m going to use the unit myself. It’s just too cool not to. 
 

I also think there’s an excellent chance they may see a point reduction…. That may move a few more boxes for GW. 
 

There seems to also be a surprising amount of success for some players with Assault Termies. I still think a squad of hammers with Sigismunds seal could be just brutal. ( I don’t like the timing of the relic but still, not bad ). 
 

I’m still pulling for a SB point reduction in the not too distant future. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Assault terminators are pulling weight with the -1 damage mini-relic. As you mentioned, the litanies are very strong and a lot of lists run two chaplains; the terminators will have access to rerolls to hit without Sigismund seal, and layering +1 attack or 5+ fnp on top (or both with strat and a big chaplain) lets them tank an obscene amount of damage and roll through a lot of targets.

 

I'm still not sure where sword brethren fit in as a larger unit unfortunately. If the unit could take all special weapons like vanguard I feel like we'd see hit squads of them, but they can't. The points are hard to tweek, because there's both vanguard and vet intercessors that are equivalent units to be taken into consideration.