Forgefiend in a bad spot

[Plague _Lord]

Thinking about the new boxed set that I'm deffo going to buy and I wonder what GW will do to buff the forgefiend. At the moment it's a unit that should be taken only if you like the model/fluff because there are just much better options for a heavy support spot.

 

For example a Defiler with reaper autocannon and a Power scourge costs around the same ammount of points, has similiar shooting, but vastly outperforms the Forgefiend in close combat. The hades autocannons seem like marine killers on paper, untill you factor in cover, possible transhuman and the very weak AP of the gun and it's damage output becomes similiar to the Reaper's. I'd also rather have a set dmg 3 battle cannon than the str 7 and randomness of the ectoplasma cannons. TBH it's not really a contest and the Defiler isn't really a competitive option.

 

i think it needs a solid buff in firepower - let the ecoplasma overcharge for damage 3 and str 8, also the Hades autocannons need either more shots (like 8 each), more ap (-2 at least), more damage or prefferably a mix of all the above. To put into perspective - even with 16 shots at str8 ap-2 and dmg 2 the forgefiend would on average deal only about 5dmg to a leman russ... which would be alright for a heavy autocannon variant.

 

What do you guys think GW needs to change to make this unit work (no the 3+ BS does not help much sadly).

[Kaiju Soze]

Well, if the changes to the Thousand Sons versions carry through you're looking at an extra 12" range on both guns, and an extra point of AP on the Hades Autocannon, which is a good start.

[Kythnos]

Plus the improved BS, which is long overdue for the CSM version. And with our Lord Discordant there are further buff options (I guess no BS buff, once that stat is improved across the board, but rather something different).

 

Warlord traits like Daemonsmith with the IW do also help.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Kythnos

[Dhar'Neth]

I hope for a new datasheet in the box and I expect it to be copy-paste from Thousand sons codex. Which makes ectoplasma dam “3” instead of “d3” and bring other improvements such as BS3+

[Khornestar]

BS/WS change from 4+ to 3+ wasn't a huge change but still pretty significant, no? ~17% increase in accuracy, I think? Along with daemonforge, assuming no better target for it, that seems great. Nothing over the top, but expectations aren't super high.

 

I do agree with wanting the gun buffs. They've never been particularly impressive weapons.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Khornestar

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If you're in a primaris-heavy meta, I feel the triple-ectoplasma will pull its weight -- that's a decent amount of 3-damage shots to knock down BGV or Gravis units, and the BS improvement we're expecting from the TS datasheet will help them hit home.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Do you guys still think the disco lord will give Daemon engines +1 to hit when Daemon engines go to 3+?

[Closet Skeleton]

Do you guys still think the disco lord will give Daemon engines +1 to hit when Daemon engines go to 3+?

I think Warpsmiths will get a +1 to hit buff for a single vehicle since Admech Enginseers and Loyalist Techmarines have that. Can't see the Lord Discordant keeping that as an aura but might get the same ability. Vehicles hitting on 2s will probably be an option but they'll lose rerolls from Lords due to that CORE nonsense.

 

I can't see the current version of Daemonforge sticking around without some adjustment.

[Kaiju Soze]

I can see Daemonforge becoming ignore wounds suffered for this phase.

[Kythnos]

Do you guys still think the disco lord will give Daemon engines +1 to hit when Daemon engines go to 3+?

I doubt it, at least not as an aura (and likely not for the Lord of Skulls anymore - that interaction is just bonkers together with the Daemonforge strat).

 

Maybe they will move this to become additional hits on 6s, better AP, or other offensive buffs.

 

I don't think it will move to become a defensive buff though.

[Plague _Lord]

If you're in a primaris-heavy meta, I feel the triple-ectoplasma will pull its weight -- that's a decent amount of 3-damage shots to knock down BGV or Gravis units, and the BS improvement we're expecting from the TS datasheet will help them hit home.

 

 

Ahh didn't see that it got buffed in the 1ksons dex... the plasma doesn't seem too bad then. The autocannons are still pretty bad though!

[Irate Khornate]

 

 

If you're in a primaris-heavy meta, I feel the triple-ectoplasma will pull its weight -- that's a decent amount of 3-damage shots to knock down BGV or Gravis units, and the BS improvement we're expecting from the TS datasheet will help them hit home.

 

Ahh didn't see that it got buffed in the 1ksons dex... the plasma doesn't seem too bad then. The autocannons are still pretty bad though!

What makes you say the autocannons are still bad?

[Danosborne]

My Ultramarines Redemptor Dreadnought has a heavy onslaught Gatling cannon, with 6 barrels, it has 12 shots. On its other hand, it has an onslaught Gatling cannon, it has 6 barrels, it has 8 shots. My Wordbearers Forgefiend has 2 hades autocannons, they have 6 barrels each, they have, 4, shots, each. Just sayin…

[Khornestar]

At least the day has come that existing unit datasheets are being fiddled with, as opposed to only introducing change via new wargear/units. Such weird discrepancies can be addressed, instead of just having legacy stats for 5 editions.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Khornestar

[Bloody Legionnaire]

My Ultramarines Redemptor Dreadnought has a heavy onslaught Gatling cannon, with 6 barrels, it has 12 shots. On its other hand, it has an onslaught Gatling cannon, it has 6 barrels, it has 8 shots. My Wordbearers Forgefiend has 2 hades autocannons, they have 6 barrels each, they have, 4, shots, each. Just sayin…

 

Okay?? And the Hades Autocannon is Str 8 and 2D.. 

 

Your Heavy Onslaught cannon is Str 6 and your Onslaught Cannon is Str 5, buth 1D each... You're talking like there is no difference between the chaos weapon and the loyalist weapons but the number of shots.

 

EDIT: 

 

Let's not take into account that the forgefiend takes 2 HAC standard. That is 8 shots at Str 8 AP-1 and 2D. That's much more respectably comparable to the HOGC and the OGC than what your statement comes off as. It would be a different story if the Redemptor could be equiped with 2 HOGC, but it cannot. There's also a pretty decent price point for the redemptor (180 with HOGC and OGC) vs the forgefiend (155 with 2xHAC and EP head).

 

Are you arguing the HAC should lose 2 Str  and 1D in order two fire as many times as it should with the number of barrels it is modelled with? There is not automatically a correlation between number of barrels and rof in a gatling style rotary cannon anyway...

Edited January 3, 2022 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Closet Skeleton]

As designed the Hades Autocannon actually has 0 barrels since none of them connect properly to the back of the gun. I guess the shells must have to load themselves through teleportation.

 

The Onslaught is a Gatling gun, it only has one ejection port. It only fires one shot at a time, the extra barrels rotate round for heat control. The Hades has no ejection ports, might rotate, might not, who knows? Just because the Hades is visually inspired by a gatling gun doesn't mean it is one and should be compared to a more accurately sculpted version of that concept. The extra barrels are probably for heat management even if it doesn't rotate.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Khornestar]

For what it's worth:

 

From Codex: Chaos Space Marines (6th):

 

The hades autocannon is most frequently seen adorning the hideous Daemon Engines with which the Warpsmiths conquer the planets of the Imperium. Hades autocannons have six barrels and can sustain such a massive rate of fire that they are capable of tearing apart massed infantry, and even well-armored targets, with each thunderous volley of shells.

 

From Codex: Khorne Daemonkin (7th):

 

A horror of heretical engineering, the Hades autocannon was developed by Warpsmiths to be mounted on their heavier Daemon Engines. Fed brass-and-brimstone bullets from multiple hoppers, the Hades' six barrels rotate with a scream like the souls of the damned. The rate of fire [of] this weapon is overwhelming - lesser foes are simply cut to pieces, while even the mightiest targets are driven to their knees and riddled with bloody, gaping holes.

 

[Danosborne]

It just feels wrong that something with lots of barrels has so few shots, especially when loyalist marines get more shots for the same number of barrels. I wouldn’t be adverse to losing a pip of damage but gaining more shots, it would give the model a different role for sure. Agreed it would probably be less powerful but it would make more sense to me

[Plague _Lord]

Barrels isn't the problem tbh - it could have (and should) a high caliber and low rate of fire...

The problem is the game play doesnt match the fluff - while in universe a squad of guardsmen could think - "that thing killed 4 guys from our squad, we have to take it out at all costs" in game it's more like "that thing killed ONLY 4 guys from our squad, let's ignore it". The hades autocannon just doesn't do the "massive rate of fire that they are capable of tearing apart massed infantry"   as statistically only 4 GEQ die from a volley from this thing and it get's worse when you look at other Xenos - ork boys, necron warriors (they get back up) or say sisters of battle that lose only 3 men/women. so your 135pt unit kills around 20 points of your enemy's worst units every turn... Not great huh?

 

Let's look at the other part of the quote from khornestar - "and even well-armored targets, with each thunderous volley of shells." h Let's say the forgefiend shoots at 5 primars marines sitting on an objective - on average 3 marines should die and you have a chance to wipe the squad. Not bad you say, but when you account for the 1CP for transhuman, the avarage falls to less than 1 dead marine on average. So again we kill around 20 points but our opponent had to waste a CP!  and let's be honest if he isn't wasting that CP that means that the unit you are shooting isn't that important. Against heavy infantry like terminators then half of the time you are killing 1 terminator - again not great from a unit that is in the heavy support slot. Against transports the Forgefiend with hades cannons will probably chip half of the target's wounds away but still do we want to pay so many points for a unit that can only do chip damage or kill a few screeners? The answer is no and the Forgefiend will need a total makeover in the new dex with both new weapon profiles and some actual rules to make it at least more interesting (why mount those guns on a big dino when you can just put them on an easier to make tank?) like daemonic ammo or suppressing fire or maybe even a buff to surrounding units.

[Khornestar]

I think too expensive is the name of the game for most of our units this edition. Though maybe the same could be said for certain loyalist units as well - a topic for a different subforum.

 

The stats both don't fit the lore or effectively fill a role in the army, IMO. Anti-elite-infantry, I guess? Not that it does it well. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Just take the ectoplasmas instead I suppose. They look cooler anyway.

[MegaVolt87]

Eh, double its shots without changing the rest of the weapon stats, then increase the points. Tired of cheap units with barely average performance. 

[Khornestar]

Eh, double its shots without changing the rest of the weapon stats, then increase the points. Tired of cheap units with barely average performance.

 

That’s also a good point. It already kinda feels like a pointless choice a lot of the time, compared to other units.

[Xenith]

Seems like this conversation has circled back around to Thousand Sons impressions on the upgraded fiends - the new profiles are nice, and way better than the old ones...but they're still not great in this edition. They don't show up in TS armies - CSM might get more use from them with the ability to buff with disco lords and heal with smiths, but as pointed out above, the TS can buff them a little (make Hades AP-2 for a CP) but it's not enough to take them. 155pts gets you a fiend with triple ecto which might have some utility with BLAST vs units of 6+, but for marines, 180pts will net you 3 Inceptors with 6 plasmas - little less toughness, damage and wounds, but much more mobile and CORE. 

 

As it stands for TS, you'd need to drop both versions of the fiend down to ~125pts for someone to consider them, but even then are they more useful than a unit of rubes with SRC for 115?

[Karhedron]

I haven't played with or against 1KSons but I feel the Forgefiend is a little underrated. The Ectplasma variant is a flat 3 damage which is actually pretty good in the current meta. You compare it to Plasma Inceptors but they have to overcharge (with the associated risks) to get to 2 Damage.

 

3 Damage will insta-kill Gravis, Terminators, Custodes etc. It is also less affected by units with the -1 Damage rule so still has some value against Dreadnoughts, Deathguard etc. They also fill a valuable role in providing 1KSons with ranged firepower, something they are pretty short of otherwise.