Hobby has lost its ‘Magic’.

[Scribe]

 

 

They need a quick play format. No stratagems, no cards, no crazy random stuff.

 

1500 points, single codex, setup and roll.

 

(Aka: 5th)

This is called "Not Battleforging Your Armies" and it's available to anyone in all three modes of play.

 

(You do still get 1 CP per turn, but you can only use it on the common BRB strats)

 

Again, the problem is players. This edition of the game has been designed for maximum flexibility, but everyone would rather complain than try all of the other options, of which there are more than there have ever been.

"Everyone" is a whole lot of people, some of whom are in this thread being very positive about alternative ways to play 40k.

 

 

I mean if there is a legit, structured, 'by the book' rule set that matches 5th, hey, I'm all in.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

Imagine if you were just joining a local martial arts or boxing club as a novice or someone returning with some past experience. When you arrive to take part you find out that rather than "light sparring" with minimal contact being how you start you end up with full contact and points scoring. Two gruelling minutes later you've got bruises and a bloody nose whilst your "sparring partner" is stood over you gloating about their victory.

 

This isn't a productive way to introduce people to a hobby, or to welcome them back.

 

 

 

Been on the receiving end of that as a kid when I took up kickboxing, new kid had to fight on his first day, paired me with a right steak head. Got a few good shots in but then he folded me up like a deck chair. Wasnt an enjoyable experience. Cant imagine its fun for a kid when they get steamrolled in their first few games, or me when I finally get to use my Guard for the first time ever, :lol: 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Slave to Darkness

[Master Commander Ajax]

The hobby lost its magic with the introduction of Primaris. 40k up until then was the most immersive setting out there with all its well thought out quirks and nuances. Then, in one heavy handed swoop, these “bigger, faster and stronger” Marines were wedged into it with a lore explanation so lazy and jarring it was almost comical. It doesn’t help that the design of Primaris, aside from better scaling, remains far inferior to that of original Marines. It’s been years since and it still the most divisive topic in the community. I LOVED the story of 40k whereas now I’m completely numb to it. Genuinely, I find the whole thing really quite sad.

[Scribe]

The hobby lost its magic with the introduction of Primaris. 40k up until then was the most immersive setting out there with all its well thought out quirks and nuances. Then, in one heavy handed swoop, these “bigger, faster and stronger” Marines were wedged into it with a lore explanation so lazy and jarring it was almost comical. It doesn’t help that the design of Primaris, aside from better scaling, remains far inferior to that of original Marines. It’s been years since and it still the most divisive topic in the community. I LOVED the story of 40k whereas now I’m completely numb to it. Genuinely, I find the whole thing really quite sad.

 

I dont know, its a poorly forced addition certainly, but its not remotely close to the worst that they could even be arguably entertaining already.

 

A point is going to be reached where some kind of 'Legacy' rules system is going to need to be fan created, and the lore will eventually hit a point where its no longer '40K' but I dont think Primaris are that tipping point just yet.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

 

 

They need a quick play format. No stratagems, no cards, no crazy random stuff.

 

1500 points, single codex, setup and roll.

 

(Aka: 5th)

This is called "Not Battleforging Your Armies" and it's available to anyone in all three modes of play.

 

(You do still get 1 CP per turn, but you can only use it on the common BRB strats)

 

Again, the problem is players. This edition of the game has been designed for maximum flexibility, but everyone would rather complain than try all of the other options, of which there are more than there have ever been.

"Everyone" is a whole lot of people, some of whom are in this thread being very positive about alternative ways to play 40k.

Theres a slight trap of people forgetting different people or areas have a different way that most or all games are played or arranged (and I include myself in that)

 

For me its games arranged on one or two facebook groups, often with people I havent played before or only a couple of times.

 

If its the same group or a couple of friends you always play with then custom Open War or Crusade is a more viable option (and sounds like fun)

 

Me personally I need to be able to say mission pack X or this ruleset so we're both on the same page

 

Im now remembering a game in 8th where we lost at least 30 mins of a 2.5 hour slot cos my non newbie opponent arranged a 2k matched play game but then had to be talked into using any kind of mission or even victory points, like at all.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Dark Shepherd

[byrd9999]

If anyone wants a good "quick play" format with a minimum of models and rulesbooks, then I'd highly recommend the new Kill Team.

 

Small model count, small board, great terrain. Simplified rules system. Quicker games. Plus you still get the tactical complexity of Command Points.

 

Focusing on the small model count and terrain also allows you to spend more time painting your army to a higher standard without it taking months/years to get the whole army to the same level.

 

It's a blast (pun intended).

[phandaal]

The hobby lost its magic with the introduction of Primaris. 40k up until then was the most immersive setting out there with all its well thought out quirks and nuances. Then, in one heavy handed swoop, these “bigger, faster and stronger” Marines were wedged into it with a lore explanation so lazy and jarring it was almost comical. It doesn’t help that the design of Primaris, aside from better scaling, remains far inferior to that of original Marines. It’s been years since and it still the most divisive topic in the community. I LOVED the story of 40k whereas now I’m completely numb to it. Genuinely, I find the whole thing really quite sad.

On the bright side, seems like whomever it was we have to thank for the abomination of lore that was the introduction of Primaris Marines has been put in time-out. I say this because other factions are getting range updates where models are just, y'know, updated.

 

Primaris Marines' intro seemed to be a product of the waning mentality of "change everything, and above all else remember to have disdain for your customers." Nowadays companies have rediscovered the wild idea that customers will spend a lot of money on things they already like.

 

Been converting/kitbashing my Intercessors into scaled-up Tactical Marines. Actually looks really good and does not take much skill (lucky for me).

[Karhedron]

The hobby lost its magic with the introduction of Primaris. 40k up until then was the most immersive setting out there with all its well thought out quirks and nuances. Then, in one heavy handed swoop, these “bigger, faster and stronger” Marines were wedged into it with a lore explanation so lazy and jarring it was almost comical. It doesn’t help that the design of Primaris, aside from better scaling, remains far inferior to that of original Marines. It’s been years since and it still the most divisive topic in the community. I LOVED the story of 40k whereas now I’m completely numb to it. Genuinely, I find the whole thing really quite sad.

The initial introduction was poorly handled but more recent fluff has done a much better job of explaining the background of the Primaris. Try "The Great Work", it does a good job of explaining Cawl's backstory and showing why he was able to accomplish what he did. Some stories like this at the start of 8th would have made the introduction a lot less jarring. Recent developments like Primaris Marines falling to the Red Thirst have shown that Primaris Marines are not immune to the problems that characterise the Firstborn and that gives them a bit more depth IMHO.

 

I am not arguing that their initial introduction was not poorly handled but at least GW have recognised this and improved the fluff somewhat without completely retconning it.

[ThePenitentOne]

 

"Everyone" is a whole lot of people, some of whom are in this thread being very positive about alternative ways to play 40k.

 

 

This is a very good point.

 

My bad.

 

 

The initial introduction was poorly handled but more recent fluff has done a much better job of explaining the background of the Primaris. 

 

 

Just to add: the Crusade rules for Torchbearer Fleets are some of the best work the White Dwarf Team did in 2021, and they made me really appreciate not only Primaris, but also Custodes- two factions which I play very rarely, and only under very specific conditions.

 

I also really like the Primaris Kill Teams for Deathwatch.

[omo667]

I take pauses taking *years*, but still come back FWIW.

Magic goes and comes back :) keep your spirits up brother.

[Interrogator Stobz]

The hobby lost its magic with the introduction of Primaris. 40k up until then was the most immersive setting out there with all its well thought out quirks and nuances. Then, in one heavy handed swoop, these “bigger, faster and stronger” Marines were wedged into it with a lore explanation so lazy and jarring it was almost comical. It doesn’t help that the design of Primaris, aside from better scaling, remains far inferior to that of original Marines. It’s been years since and it still the most divisive topic in the community. I LOVED the story of 40k whereas now I’m completely numb to it. Genuinely, I find the whole thing really quite sad.

I concur, they left me feeling numb, i.e. no magic left for my lifelong Faction.

No amount of shining the Primaris fluff up will actually help, they are not OG Marines.

OG Marines need that shine and likely won't ever get it outside HH. So no joy there, just numbness.

 

I do find the magic in AT and KT though, it's like now I am off the 40k plastic addiction I have traded it for a different addiction.

The games are just excellent, they play better and there is no bloat. Also as a bonus, there are only classic factions available in my KT group.

 

Now nothing about the main game excites me anymore for the various reasons others have mentioned.

Too much tournament focus by all the players in my area, too many unnecessarily overcomplicated rules, too many books needed to keep relevant, pick-up games become too one sided massacres etc...

Edited January 10, 2022 by Interrogator Stobz

[Doghouse]

I must admit I am not a fan of the existing lore in the slightest so I am going with Pre-Great Rift and Heresy armies.  

 

To be fair I'm happy to stick to Firstborn marines in the codex and I think when the Heresy set comes out after the initial hype has died most will use them for 40k armies. I can easily see the return of pure Firstborn armies once the plastic kits start coming out especially if we see vehicles that cannot transport Primaris. I fully expect every 30k plastic kit that comes out to make it into the next marine codex.

 

As for the lore it's easy to forget that 40k is a sandbox. We've got atleast ten thousand years of events that we can explore or millennia that are not completely fleshed out. Just have a look through some of the old rulebooks or codexes and you will find lots of mentions of obscure battles and wars to base an army on. You could even make a force of marines under the control of a Rogue Trader that is so far out into uncharted space they have no idea what a Primaris is.

 

The rules are trickier to get around as despite having older editions and alternate rules sets like One Page Rules you know everyone and his mate are going to be using the absolute latest editions, FAQs and points values. You might be able to convince a friend or gaming buddy to try out an older edition but lets be honest everyone is going to want the "official" updates. As for the codex up until 8th marine armies for the most part were the same edition to edition without the massive bloat of new units and vehicles we have now. I doubt my 5th and 7th edition armies would differ that much in terms of models to be honest.

[Slave to Darkness]

I must admit I am not a fan of the existing lore in the slightest so I am going with Pre-Great Rift and Heresy armies.  

 

To be fair I'm happy to stick to Firstborn marines in the codex and I think when the Heresy set comes out after the initial hype has died most will use them for 40k armies. I can easily see the return of pure Firstborn armies once the plastic kits start coming out especially if we see vehicles that cannot transport Primaris. I fully expect every 30k plastic kit that comes out to make it into the next marine codex.

 

As for the lore it's easy to forget that 40k is a sandbox. We've got atleast ten thousand years of events that we can explore or millennia that are not completely fleshed out. Just have a look through some of the old rulebooks or codexes and you will find lots of mentions of obscure battles and wars to base an army on. You could even make a force of marines under the control of a Rogue Trader that is so far out into uncharted space they have no idea what a Primaris is.

 

The rules are trickier to get around as despite having older editions and alternate rules sets like One Page Rules you know everyone and his mate are going to be using the absolute latest editions, FAQs and points values. You might be able to convince a friend or gaming buddy to try out an older edition but lets be honest everyone is going to want the "official" updates. As for the codex up until 8th marine armies for the most part were the same edition to edition without the massive bloat of new units and vehicles we have now. I doubt my 5th and 7th edition armies would differ that much in terms of models to be honest.

In my headcannon most of my Imperial armies were crusading in the Ghoul stars when the Galaxy split, so they didnt even know Primaris were a thing, my not Templars just went 'no' when they found out, my Wolf Lord said they dont smell of pee and mjod so they aint true Wolves and the Inquisitor running around with them declared Primaris as abominations (how dare Cawl claim to have improved the Emperors work) and straight up called G'man a fake Emperor and does not recognize his authority as chief poobah of the Imperium. That way I have an in universe fluff reason to kick their bottoms. :D 

 

Not perfect but it works for me. 

[phandaal]

 

The hobby lost its magic with the introduction of Primaris. 40k up until then was the most immersive setting out there with all its well thought out quirks and nuances. Then, in one heavy handed swoop, these “bigger, faster and stronger” Marines were wedged into it with a lore explanation so lazy and jarring it was almost comical. It doesn’t help that the design of Primaris, aside from better scaling, remains far inferior to that of original Marines. It’s been years since and it still the most divisive topic in the community. I LOVED the story of 40k whereas now I’m completely numb to it. Genuinely, I find the whole thing really quite sad.

The initial introduction was poorly handled but more recent fluff has done a much better job of explaining the background of the Primaris. Try "The Great Work", it does a good job of explaining Cawl's backstory and showing why he was able to accomplish what he did. Some stories like this at the start of 8th would have made the introduction a lot less jarring. Recent developments like Primaris Marines falling to the Red Thirst have shown that Primaris Marines are not immune to the problems that characterise the Firstborn and that gives them a bit more depth IMHO.

 

I am not arguing that their initial introduction was not poorly handled but at least GW have recognised this and improved the fluff somewhat without completely retconning it.

Honestly, I do not think there is any good way to introduce Primaris with their current lore.

 

Spending more time explaining that Primaris are about to replace all of your favorite Marines would just give people more time to say they do not like it before it happens.

 

The best thing to do is ignore the whole "these guys are even more super super-soldiers" embarrassment and think of them as regular Space Marines. The models are taller because it is a range update, and they have different equipment because Guilliman helped Cawl find a forgotten STC or something.

 

Think of it that way and it becomes a lot easier to enjoy Primaris as the range refresh they should have been.

[Slave to Darkness]

The gajillion variants of bolter annoy me. They fire the same bullets, no point in having so many. But this is slipping into pros vs cons of Primaris and is goin OT, we dont wanna get called out for 'Toxic behaviour in the community' again because we dont like things others do.