The spread of Toxic Negativity in the B&C community

[Orange Knight]

I heard about this forum a while back from users on Dakka, and it was mentioned by YouTube personalities like Valrak.

 

Dakka (my primary forum up until recently) is often a horrible experience filled with non-stop irrational complaining, hyperbolic toxic negativity and an air of a general dislike for the subjects the forums are dedicated to.

 

By comparison, this forum was generally a lot more positive and constructive, and measured in regards to personal opinions. Unfortunately that impression I originally had is starting to evaporate under the constant, negative attitude that is starting to prevail within the community.

 

As we are all aware, Primaris were a contentious decision on behalf of Games Workshop, and their rocky start did not help. The lore has been expanded and repaired since, and the model line is starting to develop a better and more cohesive personality as new models and units are released.

 

It's unfortunately very disheartening to see attacks on the range, and continual complaints about the "shunning" of the Firstborn, as we approach the 5th year anniversary of the new line. Topics are still being derailed, with complaints about Primaris and the continual insertion of the old range into the discussion. Will this still be happening on the 10th year anniversary of the Primaris release?

It's also generally strange to see people complaining about needed Astartes releases, on a forum that made it's name and built it's community with a primary focus on the Marines. And let's not forget that during the hay-day of the Forgeworld 30k range, new Astartes releases were basically a weekly occurrence and no one was complaining about it then.

 

If this was the only issue, it would be understandable to some extent, but unfortunately it's not the case.

Every new campaign book, rules update, model release, announcements from the WH Community team or reveal is often discussed in a negative light.

 

I really noticed this prevailing negative attitude in the topic I made that reported on the rumors that originated with Valrak's video. It reported on future model and book releases that are generally desired, and in the case of the books - sorely needed. Despite this, the topic was once again filled with arguments about ranges, complaints about Primaris, or more general attacks about the faction receiving support.

 

This is not an attack on individuals within the forum. This is a plea.

We are in this Hobby by choice. We spend a lot of time and money on it. Due to Covid disruptions, work etc, some of us have less opportunity to discuss our passion within our regular social settings, so we come to the forums instead.

 

I want to discuss 40k in a positive light. If my hobby was no longer bringing me joy, or I was burnt out, I would simply take a break. It has happened to me multiple times in the past - sometimes I would drop out for a year or two, only to return when a new edition or army release drew me back.

 

If you find yourself generally disgruntled with most things relating to the hobby then perhaps you are burnt-out also, or simply need to take a break to pursue something else.

And I know there are some people who genuinely get a kick from complaining about all things Games Workshop (Emperor knows I personally know a lot of them lol), but please keep in mind the atmosphere you create when you do so.

 

So, we're about to enter a New Year, and it will hopefully be one where things start to return back to normal for everyone, and we can enjoy ourselves in our Hobby.

Negativity will not help to grow our community.

 

 

 

Edit: Correcting a Typo I somehow missed...

Edited December 29, 2021 by Orange Knight

[Axineton]

In every hobby or pastime there are gonna be those that aren’t into it when new things happen. It’s inevitable. Just ignore it mate that’s what I do. Numpties crying about toy soldiers is a first world problem these days lol.

[grailkeeper]

Not everyone has to be happy at everything. Not liking primaris isn't toxic, its just an opinion. I'd say toxic would me more insulting people over primaris or getting into flame wars. I haven't seen that happen here. Two fairly prominent users were banned for negative behaviour not so long ago.

[Joe]

Generally speaking, B&C is pretty damn decent when it comes to managing the toxicity - we have an incredibly active moderation team who work to counter it where it crops up, and you do see them blapping people semi-regularly. That said, stuff will slip through on occasion - and there's always going to be times where a moderator engages in the same behaviour, be it intentionally or unintentionally. It's just a fact of life, and something that people need to learn to live with.

 

I do think more could be done to mitigate certain issues, but that's a discussion for another thread.

@grailkeeper; it's even funnier, as at least one of those users has been banned from other Warhammer related communities recently.

[Orange Knight]

Not everyone has to be happy at everything. Not liking primaris isn't toxic, its just an opinion. I'd say toxic would me more insulting people over primaris or getting into flame wars. I haven't seen that happen here. Two fairly prominent users were banned for negative behaviour not so long ago.

I completely agree that one does not have to like everything. That's perfectly reasonable.

 

The issue is that if those people de-rail every topic by repeating that same opinion, it is not helpful or conducive to any kind of discussion.

 

Keep in mind this is not a topic about Primaris.

 

Edit: If you turn your eyes to the topic relating to the new campaign book "Vigilus Alone" there is a moderator post reminding people not to spiral into unhelpful negativity.

 

Whether we want to admit it or not, the general discourse on this forum has gradually become far more negative.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Orange Knight

[Halandaar]

I suspect I'm one of the people who got your back up, both in the thread about new SM rumours on account of my eyeroll about new Space Marine news following immediately after the Eldar/Chaos reveal and the thread about the new campaign/seasons system.

 

Despite what you might have taken away about me from those threads, I have been called various things on this forum (all the way from white knight to bootlicker) for expressing positivity (or even neutrality/pragmatism) about various releases, designs, price points, the "boycott" and so on. I guess what I'm saying is, me expressing distaste for the odd thing here or there does not make me a purveyor of wanton negativity, and nor does me being positive about stuff make me a corporate shill.

 

Sure, you say this statement isn't abut individuals but I'm just citing myself as an example; I've been what you might call negative in a couple of threads on different topics in the last few days, and yet there are people here who probably think of me as a "GW apologist" or worse. Just like me, the overwhelming majority of people here have different viewpoints on different topics and making a sweeping generalisation like "the same people are just constantly negative" is not really valid. Honestly, I can only think of maybe one or two posters who just seem to hate everything out of absolutely thousands who use B&C regularly.

 

Ultimately this is a discussion forum and people are going to discuss their viewpoints (even negative ones), and negative opinions are not automatically toxic, not even if they seem to be prevalent. Assuming people are "burnt out" or "in need of a break" and effectively telling them to go away just because they have a different viewpoint on a few topics is neither helpful nor constructive.

 

Take Axineton's advice and just let it pass you by; some people are going to dislike stuff, and some people are still disliking the same stuff they disliked before. None of that changes what you value in your hobby .

[Blindhamster]

its been an ongoing issue in the B&C for a couple years now at least, I used to love coming here and spent a lot of free time reading threads and commenting, nowadays I still visit and I still donate, but i'm way less active because it's just often not a nice place to come. Most threads end up being complaining and moaning and whining and often boil down into insults, which just leaves me in turn feeling negative. It sucks, but I guess its the result of modern internet mentality.

 

edit

@Halandaar tbf there ARE people that do nothing but make the same generally negative comments in just about every N&R thread I read, regardless of theme or topic, then there are individuals who are broadly negative but occasionally have something positive to contribute, there's nothing wrong with voicing opinions or having a negative read on a new announcement/product/whatever, but its usually down to the way that is expressed that is the issue, and theres a difference between the people that try to at least be pragmatic but eventually just get fed up of a particular thing (your comments as an example) vs someone who basically spouts the same vitriol in every thread.

 

and no, actually reading constant negativity can and will impact many peoples hobby as they just get disheartened, I suspect this is especially true for individuals like myself who don't get much opportunity to play anymore and rely on the forums for most of their hobby fix.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Blindhamster

[Captain Idaho]

I think topics like this are complete nonsense and show a certain level of expectation to tow the line you agree with or be labelled "toxic". It's method we often see used elsewhere to silence criticism of shadey practices or things that upset a fanbase.

 

You're wrong, frankly. When someone makes a topic about Primaris here, talking about tactics or what they like about it, no one comes swinging in being "anti-Primaris".

 

The topics you're referring to it is perfectly relevant to criticise GW's business practices and that included the introduction of a new model line.

 

The fact you felt personally attacked by that is surprising. Unless you are the chief executive of GW.

[Triszin]

Toxic/Negative Feedback loop is a thing, that must be constantly wrangled.

There is a fine line between taking action, and letting the candle burn out its transient emotions.

 

It is always an ongoing discussion.

 

 

I will say, if you do notice a trend please, feel free to report said content. A report will help magnify attention, in case something/s are slipping through.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I think that there is negativity from both camps to be honest. I think at they end of the day, we as human beings, in all aspects of life, need to be able to take a step back and show respect to those of us with different views. Of course this doesn’t mean not expressing our views, if just means we do so in a respectful nature. The only time in life to show anger is for standing up against toxic bigotry when it comes to things like race etc.  As for what flavour space marine you prefer, whether that be Primaris, Firstborn, both of them, or dead on the base of  your Xenos or Chaos miniature, remember to treat your fellow gamer with dignity and respect.

[tychobi]

Respectful free discourse is a hard bar to meet but the assertation that negative comments about the game as a subject does not grow the community does not pass the sniff test.  Yes shill marketing works to a point but it has a negative effect on the quality of the product.  Growth is good but not at the expense of your loyal customers. Poor quality and poor business practice are subjects that need to be allowed for the health of the game and its players.  

[Orange Knight]

I think topics like this are complete nonsense and show a certain level of expectation to tow the line you agree with or be labelled "toxic". It's method we often see used elsewhere to silence criticism of shadey practices or things that upset a fanbase.

 

You're wrong, frankly. When someone makes a topic about Primaris here, talking about tactics or what they like about it, no one comes swinging in being "anti-Primaris".

 

The topics you're referring to it is perfectly relevant to criticise GW's business practices and that included the introduction of a new model line.

 

The fact you felt personally attacked by that is surprising. Unless you are the chief executive of GW.

This is a rather unhelpful post. I do not personally feel attacked, that's exactly what this topic is staying away from.

 

I'm talking about the general trend on this forum community that is tilting towards a negative outlook.

 

Whether you agree or not is up to you, but several people have already expressed an agreement with my viewpoint. Your dismissal of said viewpoint is disappointing, especially as you are a moderator. Dismissal of someone's opinion, especially when all I'm calling for is a more positive environment for us all to enjoy our Hobby in, is counterproductive.

[Orange Knight]

I would like to direct you to this post from a moderator on the topic discussing the recent campaign book announcement:

 

=][= Folks, I'd like to ask you to steer away from the discussion centered around new editions, GW's financial health, the repetitive negativity, etc. These are all topics that have been discussed elsewhere, therefore we're just treading on already trodden ground, and while they might have a bearing on the topic of this slight shift on GW's part, the discussion is scattering and veering into off-topic chatter and the same old unhelpful negativity.

 

Let's focus once more on the original announcement found in the first post of this thread and take broader topics of discussion to the appropriate subfora/threads, please. Thank you. =][=

 

What is mentioned here is indeed a trend that I see repeated in topic affect topic.

[phandaal]

The fact you felt personally attacked by that is surprising. Unless you are the chief executive of GW.

 

This is common across fan communities. People have a hard time separating their notion of themselves from the think they like. Hence why you will always see a variation of the following:

 

Person 1: "I do not like this thing the company did."

Person 2: "I do not like you, Person 1."

 

Person 2 acts as if they are the one to whom Person 1 was directing their comments and responds in kind.

[Lord Marshal]

I see far more toxicity emerge out of several of GW's defenders getting snarky about 'the grogs' and 'whiners' than I do the more critical posters. Quite often people will be having a decent enough discussion, before a one-line post is spat out about how "some people are never happy" or along those lines that gets peoples backs up.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Lord Marshal

[Special Officer Doofy]

Whether you agree or not is up to you, but several people have already expressed an agreement with my viewpoint. Your dismissal of said viewpoint is disappointing, especially as you are a moderator. Dismissal of someone's opinion, especially when all I'm calling for is a more positive environment for us all to enjoy our Hobby in, is counterproductive.

Well then count me in the opposite boat as you. This thread is cringey and makes me think of the south park episode "my safe place".

 

Whether we want to admit it or not, the general discourse on this forum has gradually become far more negative.

Could it be that a large portion of the player base (or in this case specifically, members on this forum) are gradually becoming more negative towards GW's decisions and are being increasingly vocal about it?

 

For example I don't play marines, never have, never will, so the whole Primaris/firstborn thing means nothing to me. But as a chaos/xenos player, I count the number of releases that marines get in general versus most other factions, and it's staggering. Even just after Christmas with the chaos and Eldar news, bam marine ancient. I get it, they are the bread and butter for GW but the marine releases are reminding me of a child at another kids birthday party that also gets his own present. Others feel the same. So they mention it. If you take it personally, then that's on you.

 

You can also ignore people. Not hard. I had to ignore some people. Life goes on.

[Noserenda]

Honestly id suggest using the block function more, there are definitely users (even mods) who i can accurately predict the content of their posts upon seeing their avatar, filter or skip over the more egregious ones and life is much better :) 

I suspect things might seem a bit more negative because GW is backsliding and the pandemic has everyone a bit on edge though.

[Orange Knight]

I can understand that to an extent. But are you suggesting that Games Workshop should not make decisions that are profitable?

 

The success or the Horus Heresy range, driven by the community that invested heavily in additional Astartes kits, could be seen as another driving factor behind the Primaris line, as an example. In this instance GW are following the desires of the hobbyists.

 

But again, this is off topic.

 

I don't want to personally ignore people because everyone has the potential to contribute interesting viewpoints to a conversation.

[Captain Idaho]

I would like to direct you to this post from a moderator on the topic discussing the recent campaign book announcement:

=][= Folks, I'd like to ask you to steer away from the discussion centered around new editions, GW's financial health, the repetitive negativity, etc. These are all topics that have been discussed elsewhere, therefore we're just treading on already trodden ground, and while they might have a bearing on the topic of this slight shift on GW's part, the discussion is scattering and veering into off-topic chatter and the same old unhelpful negativity.Let's focus once more on the original announcement found in the first post of this thread and take broader topics of discussion to the appropriate subfora/threads, please. Thank you. =][=

What is mentioned here is indeed a trend that I see repeated in topic affect topic.

What the Moderator has done here is isolate a circular argument and attempted to move it on since the topic is going nowhere. You'll notice I stopped discussion there a while ago for that very reason; it was an exhausted topic.

[Joe]

I think another issue is we haven't really had a major community hobby event to serve as a distraction for some time either - so people tend to filter into other areas of the forum instead. ETL has been suspended for obvious reasons, and the various smaller events tend to draw from within a set niche.

[phandaal]

I can understand that to an extent. But are you suggesting that Games Workshop should not make decisions that are profitable?

 

 

This may sound personal, but it is not. Just a tip to help navigate discussions that may annoy you:

 

If you ever find yourself asking someone if they are saying or suggesting something you find absurd ("so what you are saying is..." "so what you are telling me is..."), chances are near 100% that they are not saying or suggesting that thing.

 

Keeping this in mind also helps to avoid getting drawn in to "toxic" discussions or arguments.

[Noserenda]

I can understand that to an extent. But are you suggesting that Games Workshop should not make decisions that are profitable?

 

...

 

I don't want to personally ignore people because everyone has the potential to contribute interesting viewpoints to a conversation.

I think they need to weigh up whether unpopular short term profits are impacting their long term profits, im certainly spending a lot less than when GW and especially FW was in my good graces, plenty of other places to spend money after all and absolutely no shortage of backlog :D 

 

On the latter point my exact argument is that some people are not worth engaging with precisely because they never bring an interesting viewpoint to conversations or are obviously inconsistent trolls looking to stir things up.

 

 

 

This may sound personal, but it is not. Just a tip to help navigate discussions that may annoy you:

 

If you ever find yourself asking someone if they are saying or suggesting something you find absurd ("so what you are saying is..." "so what you are telling me is..."), chances are near 100% that they are not saying or suggesting that thing.

 

Keeping this in mind also helps to avoid getting drawn in to "toxic" discussions or arguments.

 

Oh yes, exactly this

[Special Officer Doofy]

I can understand that to an extent. But are you suggesting that Games Workshop should not make decisions that are profitable?

 

The success or the Horus Heresy range, driven by the community that invested heavily in additional Astartes kits, could be seen as another driving factor behind the Primaris line, as an example. In this instance GW are following the desires of the hobbyists.

 

But again, this is off topic.

 

I don't want to personally ignore people because everyone has the potential to contribute interesting viewpoints to a conversation.

No they need to be profitable, obviously. But you need to look at the other side. Just using this one as an example as I already said I don't care about it. Primaris is obviously profitable. But it wasn't "hey we love our marine players, we want to give them even more tools in their tool box when playing the hobby and give them true scale marines". It was more of "we lost a few lawsuits and want to trade mark our stuff, and marine players are not making alot of purchases anymore, so what if we just redid the whole marine line, make them not compatible in transports, make the new tanks have fly, new marines have 2W while old ones don't, etc...". That doesn't come across to alot of people as GW doing a service to their fans, it was a service to themselves. People should be able to be upset about it. People were upset, but it got better. The first thing I did when I joined the forum was to go through all the locked threads. Alot of them were Primaris related. Alot of the people against them came around. They are still not high fiving GW over it though.

 

Again I was only using the Primaris thing as an example, I really have no stake in it at all.

 

But really, if some people are truly making you that upset, then just block them. Their contribution to the forum for you is only making it worse, so block them. First person I blocked was one of the two people recently banned. It was the right decision. Unfortunately you can't block mods, there are a few who get under my skin and one I had a back and forth in with Pm's. Just move on and ignore it. It's not worth it.

[N1SB]

What I've learned about The Hobby is that it has many different parts:

• Build
• Paint
• Play
• Read/Watch
• COMPLAIN

I mention this because the last part might honestly be an integral part of The Hobby, I dunno.  That said, your comment here struck a chord with me:

 

Dakka (my primary forum up until recently) is often a horrible experience filled with non-stop irrational complaining, hyperbolic toxic negativity and an air of a general dislike for the subjects the forums are dedicated to.

 

That's actually exactly why I drifted away from Dakka!  It was the weirdest thing.  The toxicity wasn't even directed at me, but it's like every time I made a thread asking a question, a heated argument erupted around it, where I was a mere bystander.  It was very confusing and I realised threads were being used as battlegrounds for proxy wars for unresolved differences.

 

I'll reflect on what you said, Brother.  Thank you for mentioning it.

[Slave to Darkness]

People saying they dont like GW's decisions isnt toxic, toxic behaviour would be if were all arguing over female marines or something like that. If anything the pro primaris lot are toxic as I have been insulted even on B&C for not liking primaris and saying Ill never collect them. Too many people taking the hobby to heart, GW doesnt love us, they just want our money so we just need to chill and not get so snarky with each other. 

 

The block function is also very handy...