The spread of Toxic Negativity in the B&C community

[Slave to Darkness]

 

I have taken a little bit of inspiration from the Pre Heresy Smurfs *vomits*, I do like the Theoretical/Practical thing they do, so if I am replying to something that may be taken as toxic Ill break my posts into Positive/Negative, Ill mention what I dont like and why (instead of just saying meh) and I will also mention what (if anything) I do like about the release. Sooner come across as impartial than negative. 

 

It is a very effective mode of communication I have found! It allows me to voice my displeasure whilst taking care to represent my intentions without misinterpretation and gives me a different angle for viewing the opposite viewpoint objectively. 

 

Failing that I just roll my eyes and close the thread and go play Supreme Commander for a bit. I resolved to myself a few years back now that I won't let someone get under my skin on the internet. All it does is sour my mood for the people physically sharing my space. 

 

Shame your in Cali, you would fit right in with my gaming chums. 

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 And what does that leave us with?

 

Crippling depression and existential dread??? 

 

I jest, just trynna lighten the mood. ;) 

[Scribe]

And what does that leave us with?

An opportunity to voice my opinion regardless.

[Monstra Sumus]

 

 

I have taken a little bit of inspiration from the Pre Heresy Smurfs *vomits*, I do like the Theoretical/Practical thing they do, so if I am replying to something that may be taken as toxic Ill break my posts into Positive/Negative, Ill mention what I dont like and why (instead of just saying meh) and I will also mention what (if anything) I do like about the release. Sooner come across as impartial than negative. 

 

It is a very effective mode of communication I have found! It allows me to voice my displeasure whilst taking care to represent my intentions without misinterpretation and gives me a different angle for viewing the opposite viewpoint objectively. 

 

Failing that I just roll my eyes and close the thread and go play Supreme Commander for a bit. I resolved to myself a few years back now that I won't let someone get under my skin on the internet. All it does is sour my mood for the people physically sharing my space. 

 

Shame your in Cali, you would fit right in with my gaming chums. 

 

 

Bedfordshire native here, moved to the US about 5 years ago. Getting a game around here is like blood from stone. 45min - 1hr drive in any direction to the FLGS and its a "hope you can swing a pick up game". I've turned up to pre planned games a few times and my opponent no showed on me leaving me out of a game, gas, and time. 

 

I really need to find a group around here. I used to game with my guys in Luton every week. Not a shred of toxicity in that club, it was wonderful. 

[Mazer Rackham]

 

Shame your in Cali, you would fit right in with my gaming chums. 

 

 

 

 

I really need to find a group around here. I used to game with my guys in Luton every week. Not a shred of toxicity in that club, it was wonderful. 

 

Now this is my only warning to you pair.  You stop that wholesome talk right now.  This a thread about breaking teeth and choking dreams, without even the whiff of a Nurgling's fart.

 

Act appropriately! 

[Monstra Sumus]

I got a lot of Dad rage bro, I don't want to get banned. 

[Wulf Vengis]

Here’s the thing, since I started this mess. I feel like your justification is flimsy. It betrays some of your assumptions about how GW operates or can operate. They don’t really play to public opinion; that’s not how their logistics work. We know from interviews that stuff like Primaris or the Eldar refresh was planned out years in advance, likely during the Kirby era. So I think your idea that you’re reaching GW by posting on B&C is a faulty one. And what does that leave us with?

I think we all know that we aren't getting messages to GW by posting here. But I think we can also agree that there are more than likely people within GW that either lurk or actively post here. Even if we never know they're connected to GW.

 

So I suppose that leaves with what we already knew; that the B&C is the best place (for many of us) to post our opinions/reviews/feelings about our little plastic dudes and the multitude of 40k related products released by GW.

[MegaVolt87]

 

Here’s the thing, since I started this mess. I feel like your justification is flimsy. It betrays some of your assumptions about how GW operates or can operate. They don’t really play to public opinion; that’s not how their logistics work. We know from interviews that stuff like Primaris or the Eldar refresh was planned out years in advance, likely during the Kirby era. So I think your idea that you’re reaching GW by posting on B&C is a faulty one. And what does that leave us with?

I think we all know that we aren't getting messages to GW by posting here. But I think we can also agree that there are more than likely people within GW that either lurk or actively post here. Even if we never know they're connected to GW.

 

So I suppose that leaves with what we already knew; that the B&C is the best place (for many of us) to post our opinions/reviews/feelings about our little plastic dudes and the multitude of 40k related products released by GW.

 

 

GW is the same as any company, they see you as a wallet and want to crowbar you open to get the treasure. I am more interested with what others are thinking than some unthinking golem in comparison. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I do remember once reading an interview with a developer and they said a typical morning would start off browsing some of the more prominent forums… that was several years ago though and don’t remember their name. I have noticed some common YTers seem to frequent the N&R sub forum… they religiously post up what they see here. Also there was a developer who at the time frequented the DA subforum… he eventually rewrote the third edition codex and it was really good imo. So it makes sense some of them might still come here from time to time to as they check the pulse… I don’t think they develop rules directly based upon content though — it never really seems to work that way. Oh and I remember ADB used to frequently post here as well.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[Slave to Darkness]

Yep, ADB used to float about here, had a nice chat with him about =][= 28 a few years back. Not seen him here in AAAAAAGES though. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That was the good ole days .

[Noctus Cornix]

I will throw my own hat onto the table for this subject, even though I don't actually participate much on this forum, these days. 

 

I started coming onto the B&C towards the tail-end of High School in 2009. As a massive Chaos and Black Templars fan, I used to frequent both of those respective sections, particularly the Chaos threads. 

 

Let me tell you. For many years, I genuinely think the Chaos section here on the B&C was the worst, most toxic place in the website. I don't feel I am hyperbolic here when I say that a good 90% of every single thread posted there devolved into complaining because this was during the age of the dreaded and unanimously loathed '4th Edition' codex that was released just before 5th edition. When you have a beautiful, intricate masterpiece like the 3.5 Chaos codex utterly stripped down to the bare bones, you'd probably be angry too. 

 

Almost every thread that wasn't just meant to complain about the state of Chaos was eventually derailed into complaining about the state of Chaos, and it went relatively unchecked by the moderation because half the time they were joining in. At first, I didn't mind it because I felt the exact same. I adored the hay-day of total customization and tailoring my armylists to fit into whatever narrative I had. That got taken away and we were left with a gross, rotting husk. So we complained, again and again. 

 

For a time, it was something I indulged in, but I eventually grew weary of the constant toxicity. I didn't want to complain about Chaos anymore. I just wanted to enjoy my favorite Faction again. So, I pulled away from the Chaos section and steered clear of it, pretty much exclusively keeping my nose in the Work in Progress threads where I could enjoy something constructive and positive. 

 

I'm happy to say that the Chaos threads are no longer like this and even if I don't usually frequent those areas anymore, it's still a treat to sometimes slide over and see what people are chatting about.

 

After the dawn of 8th edition, I felt like the Bolter and Chainsword at large had become like the Chaos threads of old. And, once again, I didn't mind it at first because I too loathed the Primaris menace. (I still do, but that's entirely besides the point.) But, once again, I grew weary of the arguing and venom so I drew away from the Bolter and Chainsword once again for a year or two. 

 

Again, the Bolter and Chainsword is nothing like it was in those dark days. Even though people still get heated from time to time, most people have seemed to settle down and the Moderation team keeps things in check fairly well, even if it needs to remind people not to act like idiots from time to time. Thankfully, certain individuals who were truly toxic have been banned from the forums and the B&C seems to be back at a relatively healthy state. (I still wish more people frequented and commented in the WiP section, including myself and we got rid of that DAMN Likes system because I'm a crotchety old in a 29-year-old's body)  

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that things could be and have been much worse before? I don't know, but I find the Bolter and Chainsword to be in a much healthier state of conversation than it has been in a while.

 

I do agree that sometimes stepping away is healthy and I would highly recommend it for anyone who needs it. Just remember what brings you joy in this hobby and focus on that instead of the negatives.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Brother Lunkhead
will PM explanation

[ThePenitentOne]

Very cool post Noctus- thanks for the perspective.

[Noctus Cornix]

Very cool post Noctus- thanks for the perspective.

 

And thank you for having a sick Blasphemous reference in your name, even if that wasn't your original intent. :D

[Scribe]

 

Let me tell you. For many years, I genuinely think the Chaos section here on the B&C was the worst, most toxic place in the website. I don't feel I am hyperbolic here when I say that a good 90% of every single thread posted there devolved into complaining because this was during the age of the dreaded and unanimously loathed '4th Edition' codex that was released just before 5th edition. When you have a beautiful, intricate masterpiece like the 3.5 Chaos codex utterly stripped down to the bare bones, you'd probably be angry too. 

 

Almost every thread that wasn't just meant to complain about the state of Chaos was eventually derailed into complaining about the state of Chaos, and it went relatively unchecked by the moderation because half the time they were joining in. At first, I didn't mind it because I felt the exact same. I adored the hay-day of total customization and tailoring my armylists to fit into whatever narrative I had. That got taken away and we were left with a gross, rotting husk. So we complained, again and again. 

 

 

 

Ah, the true Long War.

 

A glorious time.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Brother Lunkhead

[Domhnall]

One thing, in my opinion, that we all need to keep in mind, is that a person's mood can and will affect how something written is read. This goes for both the writer of a piece and the reader. We as humans can find it very difficult to see our toxicity to others, but easily see toxicity from others to us. And the more passionately we hold a thing, the more likely we are to be aggressively positive or defensively offended by negative views of it.

This is how echo Chambers on social media form, and extremism is established for a subject. My opinion is not necessarily more correct than yours, and vice versa.

 

If I'm in a happy mood and write a reply to somebody who has an opinion different to mine, I may intend it to be semi humorous and light hearted. If the reader hasn't had a good day then that same post could be read as being very aggressive and will reply as such. I then get defensive because they unjustly attacked me, and so the spiral begins.

My actual post was very neutral, but our respective moods changed how they were taken. I'm not saying we need to change how we write, but more if somebody does say something is a bit toxic (which importantly is different to being negative), to look back at what you said and view it from a different perspective. I've had to do that in the past, and found my post read differently than what I remember intending.

Positivity and negativity are natural bedfellows to discussion and debate. Toxicity is when those views descend into personal attacks and villification.

[jaxom]

Possibly getting a bit off topic, but it does seem that the "how can 'we' be heard by GW?" does play a role in engagement.

 

I have noticed some common YTers seem to frequent the N&R sub forum… they religiously post up what they see here. Also there was a developer who at the time frequented the DA subforum… he eventually rewrote the third edition codex and it was really good imo.

 

The post-3rd edition DA codex had solicited feedback from the the DA subforum, it resulted in the emphasis on plasma and that' what I was referring to with my "circa 2002-2003" comment earlier. The YTers are part of the newer data analysis system that's been made possible by the explosion of social media. Media analysis just needs a few very popular people (who are present across multiple platforms) to keep track of and they become the metaphorical canary in the coal mine.

[Dark Shepherd]

Possibly getting a bit off topic, but it does seem that the "how can 'we' be heard by GW?" does play a role in engagement

They just did the 40k rules survey and did (and should do again) the big community survey

 

I also think they respond to a big volume of feedback on certain things eg Indomitus MTO, MTO pre order promise, twice yearly points updates, quarterly balance dataslates, the dumb issue of availability of black library in stores, not milking Siege of Terra to bits like they did with HH (IGNORING THE MINEFIELD OF SOCIAL ISSUES)

 

Granted those are largely (twisted to be) in the interest of their own bottom line

 

Other things from community pressure? Templars codex, plastic Sisters, Squats maybe

 

Am now thinking its mainly they think if they can make money from it theyll listen to it

 

Stuff they were slow or didnt listen to: app problems, addressing IP clampdown

Edited January 5, 2022 by Dark Shepherd

[Slave to Darkness]

If you get stressed here, just think to yourselves, what would Mr Miyagi do? 

[Schlitzaf]

Make me wax his car

[Slave to Darkness]

Make me wax his car

:lol:

[Xenith]

If you get stressed here, just think to yourselves, what would Mr Miyagi do? 

 

Take deep breath. Find balance. 

 

Wisdom for life, generally. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Xenith

[Slave to Darkness]

 

If you get stressed here, just think to yourselves, what would Mr Miyagi do? 

 

Take deep breath. Find balance. 

 

Wisdom for life, generally. 

 

:) 

[Rik Lightstar]

If you get stressed here, just think to yourselves, what would Mr Miyagi do? 

 

No be there

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is my take on this subject (long) …

 

First I’d like to get these thoughts off my chest so to speak. Be aware I’m mostly addressing the hate I often see directed toward Primaris Space Marines which ‘in my opinion’ is unfounded. I’m aware there is staff here that feel this way… maybe quite a bit. To me it seems often is okay to slag Primaris for whatever reason - this is what I often see here. What I would like to see is a structured policy in place to prevent it. There is no evidence geedub intends to drop firstborn but obviously they aren’t getting much new attention which makes sense to me. Generally speaking Primaris are quite popular now and this is the new direction and has been since they first dropped at the beginning of eighth edition. Like I just said I don’t see firstborn going away as long as they continue to provide a viable amount of sales. Look at the new Dark Angels codex -> is all about firstborn units. Many of the most competitive units are firstborn… Vanguard Veterans, MMAB, assault Terminators, smash captains, etc. Now look how dismal has been the market response to the new Gladiators and Storm Speeders — not every new Primaris unit goes over well. Reivers… need I say more ?

 

Eventually there will be a new Primaris unit, it’s going to happen. The Gravis Captain with a chainsword seemed to be well received here. Do I like every Primaris unit… no I don’t actually but I don’t spend much time thinking about those ones either — because like I said eventually something else will come along. Just look at all the new units Orks got, much more overall than eighth edition which geedub said was the best Ork codex ever lol. I’m not a big fan of aeldari in general but I don’t go out of my way to slag them either.

 

We can reimagine how Primaris might have been released in regards to lore but really at the end of the day they are the same thing and nothing will change that about them. So some level of tolerance would be appreciated by me. That is pretty much all I have to say and I’m glad I said it too.