The spread of Toxic Negativity in the B&C community

[phandaal]

 

Dakka (my primary forum up until recently) is often a horrible experience filled with non-stop irrational complaining, hyperbolic toxic negativity and an air of a general dislike for the subjects the forums are dedicated to.

 

That's actually exactly why I drifted away from Dakka!  It was the weirdest thing.  The toxicity wasn't even directed at me, but it's like every time I made a thread asking a question, a heated argument erupted around it, where I was a mere bystander.  It was very confusing and I realised threads were being used as battlegrounds for proxy wars for unresolved differences.

 

I'll reflect on what you said, Brother.  Thank you for mentioning it.

 

Dakka is actually bad for toxicity in all regards. You get much worse negativity than anything found on B&C and you also get people who will respond to any criticism with very personal remarks... "toxic positivity."

 

B&C is just much better for having normal discussions with people who like some things and do not like other things.

[sairence]

Not everyone has to be happy at everything. Not liking primaris isn't toxic, its just an opinion. I'd say toxic would me more insulting people over primaris or getting into flame wars. I haven't seen that happen here. Two fairly prominent users were banned for negative behaviour not so long ago.

In fairness, those opinions are sometimes phrased in a pretty passive-aggressive manner that can make reading a topic pretty unpleasant without being outright insulting. Toxicity and negativity can come in many forms to sour your day, they don't have to be outright.

 

I don't play marines, so I don't care much whether something is about Firstborn or Primaris...it's all over-armoured glory boys to me. But it's hard not to notice an almost inevitably negative shift in tone in topics relating to both. Similar things tend to happen in topics about GWs business practises. It often makes me just ignore those topics outright, which is not something we should want to see on an online forum, the entire purpose of which is to share and discuss hobby-related things.

 

The whole idea of "if you don't like the tone/direction of a discussion you just don't engage with it" is pretty much against the whole idea of the B&C as I've come to understand it.

Edited December 29, 2021 by sairence

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

Dakka (my primary forum up until recently) is often a horrible experience filled with non-stop irrational complaining, hyperbolic toxic negativity and an air of a general dislike for the subjects the forums are dedicated to.

 

That's actually exactly why I drifted away from Dakka!  It was the weirdest thing.  The toxicity wasn't even directed at me, but it's like every time I made a thread asking a question, a heated argument erupted around it, where I was a mere bystander.  It was very confusing and I realised threads were being used as battlegrounds for proxy wars for unresolved differences.

 

I'll reflect on what you said, Brother.  Thank you for mentioning it.

 

Dakka is actually bad for toxicity in all regards. You get much worse negativity than anything found on B&C and you also get people who will respond to any criticism with very personal remarks... "toxic positivity."

 

B&C is just much better for having normal discussions with people who like some things and do not like other things.

 

Before I joined B&C I was eyeing up other forums, at the time I was kinda out of the 40k hobby and I lived on the old 'Great Crusade' forums as I mostly converted Mk7 into earlier power armour marks (this was before the days of the HH range from GW, and the only rules we had were fanmade by Bell of Lost Souls or the Tempus Fugitive lot). 

The first forum I looked at was Warseer (nicknamed WhineSneer for good reason), that place was so bad I didnt even sign up, then I signed up to Dakka and as soon as I shared my work I got so much crap off people I couldnt believe it was a forum dedicated to my fave hobby. Then on the HH forum either Doghouse or Apologist said they posted here so I thought I would check it out, saw you guys were doing the Call of Chaos challenge and thought Id join in. 

 

Years later Im still here, because you guys feel like a family, hell I made one comment about depression and a lot of you messaged me in private asking if I was ok and did I want to talk, last year when a relationship ended the lads in the Guard forums got me through it (love you guys). I have had a few clashes with users over the years but nothing that I would say was toxic, the last one was a heated debate with (I think) Ishagu over the pros and cons of templates and scatter dice, but elsewhere on the forum in other threads we were perfectly chill with each other, hell I even complimented his Smurfs and I really dont like them (remember Calth lads?? ;) ). 

 

Basically what I think I am trying to get out is its natural for people to spark off each other on a normal day, but with the past few years being a bit crappy people may be stressed more than usual, everybody here is passionate about 40k and often GW make choices that change what we think is 'our' hobby, some for the best, some for the worse. We may not know each other in real life but we do spend a lot of time interacting with each other here and naturally when you spend a lot of time with people you will butt heads sometimes, thats just life. But I wouldnt say B&C was 'toxic' just because we throw our overpriced toys out of the pram occasionally. Your all good people (yes even you toilet seat wearing Primaris lovers), hell maybe instead of turning my nose up at Primaris I could try and see if there is anything I do like about them, maybe others could too? and others could try seeing things from our point of view when we say we feel like GW has ignored us or whatever, even I wanted the Templars to get a book instead of saying 'oh another marine player complaining when they populate the mini range'. 

 

 

and again, the block function is still handy, is the Jeske still here?? 

[Warhead01]

I'm a little conflicted on this. I feel I try to live and post by "the golden rule." 
I am sure I do not always succeed. In the last day or two I have tried to compose a reply to the @ Orange Knight. But before I finish as those posts seemed rather long and off point in places I've just given up even trying. It stopped feeling like a worth while post. ( The HH comment some how relating to either Primaris or the new seasons missions pack. pricked me a little, doesn't really matter I suppose.) 
I do have an appreciation for some negative comments or posts, especially if they have constructive criticism or a clever solution. My hope is that GW is actually taking notes from time to time and that these kinds of posts would be helpful. I don't care for a very vocal minority or players or hobbyists, what ever they would like to be referred to as , steering the ship as it were.  
We collectively are not a monolith.  I do think some members could tone it down a little but that's something they might need to figure out for themselves. 
I've blocked all of one member on this forum in my entire time here. After finding I was still reading their posts, well what was the point of a continued block. We have our differences that's just how it is. 

As a thought though pick what you enjoy about this forum the most and do that the most. Or don't.  

There are a lot of fantastic people here. I would also say sometimes communications is challenging because of the international differences and it is something to consider when reading a post or planning a reply.  Which seems to stand out to me the most over on Dakka. and I agree that forum has a particular vibe to it. It feels a lot less fun over there to me but I've been here a long time and had it been the other way around who knows.  

 

Just food for though. 
Hope this wasn't too far off topic.

[Axineton]

I joined dakka not long after joining here but I’ve probably only posted once or twice. Much prefer it here even though I’m not the biggest expert on 40k stuff I don’t feel like I’d be ridiculed here but I reckon I would over there. Well that’s the feeling I get anyway. 

[Slave to Darkness]

I joined dakka not long after joining here but I’ve probably only posted once or twice. Much prefer it here even though I’m not the biggest expert on 40k stuff I don’t feel like I’d be ridiculed here but I reckon I would over there. Well that’s the feeling I get anyway. 

Dude/Dudette you have a Howling Griffon as your Avatar, your cool. :) 

[Axineton]

 

I joined dakka not long after joining here but I’ve probably only posted once or twice. Much prefer it here even though I’m not the biggest expert on 40k stuff I don’t feel like I’d be ridiculed here but I reckon I would over there. Well that’s the feeling I get anyway. 

Dude/Dudette you have a Howling Griffon as your Avatar, your cool.

 

Lol it’s actually a genestealer cultist but I do love the howling griffons too so win win 

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

 

 

I joined dakka not long after joining here but I’ve probably only posted once or twice. Much prefer it here even though I’m not the biggest expert on 40k stuff I don’t feel like I’d be ridiculed here but I reckon I would over there. Well that’s the feeling I get anyway.

Dude/Dudette you have a Howling Griffon as your Avatar, your cool.

Lol it’s actually a genestealer cultist but I do love the howling griffons too so win win

By the Ginger hair of Russ theres a Xenos lover in here?!?! *cries*

Edited December 29, 2021 by Captain Idaho
Let's not be too coarse eh

[Halandaar]

and again, the block function is still handy, is the Jeske still here?? 

 

Who knew a name I thought i'd forgotten would spark such a visceral reaction! 

 

More seriously, to touch on the point you made about Black Templars, I think that kind of balance/fair view is really very common across the B&C and while we typically want our own stuff first, we don't want other players to be left to fend for themselves for years at a time with no support. In my view there's a world of difference between releasing another variant loadout of a Space Marine Captain (a mini i like very much, for what it's worth) and the Templars finally getting their day in the sun after nearly 20 years. They deserved it, just like the Sisters players did and I was happy for both groups when their time finally came, as were many other non-BT, non-Sisters players. Ultimately i think most of us want all the rest of us to get what we want out of this hobby (and by extension, GW).

 

That's why I don't take kindly to the OPs idea that people like me objecting to the focus turning back to generic Space Marines when there are so many other faction fans patiently/hopefully/desperately waiting for anything (as one example) is somehow "toxic". If anything, I am myself primarily a Space Marine player who thinks Primaris are cool and has a buttload of them with the intention to get more. That shouldn't preclude me from objecting to more Marine releases when, say, Tyranid players need new stuff way more than I do. It should not force me to either be positive or just go away. If we push dissenting voices out of the community in search of "positivity", what we'll get is a sterile echo chamber where GW does no wrong and everything is wonderful, at which point all of the post might as well just be made by Warhammer Community to save us the time and effort of doing it ourselves.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Like anything in life, it is all a bit more nuanced.

 

Complaining that Primaris exist isn't productive or overly helpful. They're here, they're here to stay and they're here to come still. On the other side, calling for anyone else's army to be displaced or removed is also not appropriate, that's not okay in the hobby. It may happen over time slowly, with the move to Legends, or it may not happen at all going forward, but that's a decision that GW will make, and we as fellow hobbyists shouldn't be there to encourage that to happen to other people.

 

So we need to be mindful that our fellows here have a put a lot of time, money and effort into whatever force they've got, and so we need to respect that.

[Captain Idaho]

Like anything in life, it is all a bit more nuanced.

 

Complaining that Primaris exist isn't productive or overly helpful. They're here, they're here to stay and they're here to come still. On the other side, calling for anyone else's army to be displaced or removed is also not appropriate, that's not okay in the hobby. It may happen over time slowly, with the move to Legends, or it may not happen at all going forward, but that's a decision that GW will make, and we as fellow hobbyists shouldn't be there to encourage that to happen to other people.

 

So we need to be mindful that our fellows here have a put a lot of time, money and effort into whatever force they've got, and so we need to respect that.

Funnily enough I don't take any objection to Primaris fans on here saying they wanted Firstborn removed or sent to Legends. I certainly didn't label it as toxic or even argue with those comments, since the people who made them are entitled to make them even if they're not helpful particularly.

 

Hopefully the OP can see the connection there ;)

[Doghouse]

I think the B&C is awesome! :tu:

 

Of all the dozens of forums I have participated over the last couple of decades this is the one I always have and will call home.

 

People are always going to have differing opinions but I personally think this site is very well moderated. Like StD rightly says above if someone's opinion is constantly distressing you just put them on ignore because chances are they are not going to change.  :)

 

The Mods always have the Meltagun on hand if people take it too far.

[Dark Shepherd]

I think the B&C is awesome! :tu:

 

Of all the dozens of forums I have participated over the last couple of decades this is the one I always have and will call home.

 

People are always going to have differing opinions but I personally think this site is very well moderated. Like StD rightly says above if someone's opinion is constantly distressing you just put them on ignore because chances are they are not going to change. :)

 

The Mods always have the Meltagun on hand if people take it too far.

I like this place too

 

Sure certain arguments get circular or same arguments come up again and again but mods are fairly tight.

 

I dont like the complaints about Primaris tkn r jbs but theres also people who dont like complaints about prices

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I can understand where the OP is coming from, but I do agree that other players should be able to voice their opinions. I really think a lot of the issue right now is that the codex is established so we aren't really talking about the positives as much. It's not helping that GW is making some controversial decisions, and that a lot of players don't like the direction they're taking with missions. I almost think it's impossible to like or hate everything GW has done lately. Bottom line is that I think everyone needs to vent a bit.

 

I will admit that I would like to see more firstborn wish list threads and posts like that. I just don't think that commenting on every new Primaris sculpt with a negative response about hating them, is as constructive as telling people what you do want. Heck backing that criticism up with a picture of a model that you do like adds some positivity because you're sharing something that you do like. 

 

On a final note, I really would like to see ETL VIII at some point. In my experience with B&C it is the best time to be a member and see what the community is up too. Admiring talented people's work alongside seeing people on my talent level clearing their shame pile has always been fun for me. 

 

 

[Evil Eye]

I've always found B&C a really nice place, and probably one of the best-moderated forums out there, period. There will always be troublesome individuals but compared to, say, DakkaDakka *ptooey* it's a veritable paradise.

[Toxichobbit]

I see far more toxicity emerge out of several of GW's defenders getting snarky about 'the grogs' and 'whiners' than I do the more critical posters. Quite often people will be having a decent enough discussion, before a one-line post is spat out about how "some people are never happy" or along those lines that gets peoples backs up.

 

This has been my experience too. It's been so bad over the last few years that I've almost entirely stopped posting here. Forced positivity and suppression of dissenting opinions is just as toxic and insidious as constant negativity and is often a gross over-reaction to valid opinions.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I feel some are being more honest than others here, which sometimes people don’t even realize how what they say actually comes across. I think the OP is spot on for the most part and I’m glad the subject has been raised.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Brother Tyler]

Ultimately it comes down to preserving an environment in which we can conduct open discussions about the hobby that we all (allegedly) enjoy. In this, the mission statement of the Bolter & Chainsword should be kept in mind:
 

The Bolter & Chainsword exists to help people better enjoy and understand the Warhammer 40,000 hobby

and games set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe through constructive discussion.

 

That mission statement can be broken down into two elements: our purpose and our method.

The purpose – “…to help people better enjoy and understand the Warhammer 40,000 hobby and games set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe…” – should be fairly clear (emphasis added). The site and the community exist to help members with the hobby. At the end of the day, everyone’s experience here should be enriching.

The method – “…through constructive discussion…” – is nuanced. “Constructive” isn’t limited to positive content. Negative content can be constructive. At the end of the day, however, whether positive or negative, the content should be contributing to the purpose. If content isn’t contributing to helping members of the community to enjoy and understand the Warhammer 40,000 hobby, it is superfluous.

“Positivity” isn’t just saying that we like things and that everything is great. It can also mean effectively coping with things that we don’t like – taking those lemons and making lemonade. Being positive doesn’t mean being a shill or a GW fanboy. Rather, it’s an approach to the hobby whereby we find ways to enjoy the hobby in spite of its imperfections.

In all the time that I’ve been a member of the community, negativity has generally been cyclic. It has never been universal, and trends in positivity/negativity depend upon subject matter and individual preferences. For example, during any period one or more particular (sub-)factions may generally be perceived as being well supported by GW while one or more other particular (sub-)factions may generally be perceived as being not well supported by GW. Hobbyists that favor the factions in the first group will generally be more positive while those in the second group will generally be more negative. These will shift over time, with different factions rotating through periods of (perceived) support and non-support and resulting trends in discussion here. And then there are some individuals that are just generally inclined to be either positive or negative, regardless of how other members feel about a (sub-)faction. In addition, each of us enjoys the hobby in our own way. Some enjoy competitive play while others prefer narrative play; some enjoy the modeling side (assembling, converting, painting) while others enjoy the lore; etc. And then there are many people whose participation online (not just at the B&C) tends to be more focused on things they don’t like rather than things that they like. This doesn’t represent the majority of people, but this minority tends to be very vocal and are, therefore, more noticeable than the more numerous members that don’t complain as much.

The problem with negativity isn’t that it exists. The problem is when negative content isn’t constructive and doesn’t further the discussion in a way that helps members to enjoy and understand the hobby. When someone enters a discussion to grind their personal axe about an issue, especially when it is about an issue that is unrelated to the discussion at hand, that becomes an issue - they are being disruptive and disrespectful to other members. A complaint might be valid, but it doesn’t need to be repeated ad nauseam, nor does it need to be brought up in places where it is not relevant. Similarly, a member’s participation should not be aimed at reducing members’ enjoyment of the hobby.

Clearly we don’t want the site to become a cesspool of toxic negativity. Conversely, we don’t want the site to become an unthinking bastion of mindless positivity. Either type of echo chamber is harmful to the community. Positivity is preferable to negativity, but I don’t know any members of the community that don’t have complaints about the hobby. Everyone can identify things that they like, things they don’t like, things they think could be better, etc., and none of us totally agrees with anyone else’s views on the same subjects. There is always going to be some level of disagreement and some people will say things that other people will not like.

One challenge for members is to remain calm and reasonable when they see something with which they don’t agree or like. Another challenge for members is to consider whether or not something they want to say, whether positive or negative, needs to be said - if it’s not going to further the mission statement of the site, maybe it doesn’t need to be said. The moderati and administrators have those challenges, too, but also have the challenge of trying to keep discussion civil and constructive without bias towards one side or another (and this can often be very difficult, especially when our own personal emotions come into play). We would love to see a community in which everyone gets along, with rainbows and butterflies and Enya playing in the background (okay, maybe not the last part), but that just isn’t realistic. Often, we err on the side of critical discussion, which means we allow people to make negative comments (as long as they don’t break the forum rules). If we shut down everything negative, though, we would be missing out on a valid segment of the discussion. And where I speak of moderati and administrators taking official action, these principles apply to how other members simply respond (or not respond) to content. Members are going to say things and other members will challenge them. That is all conducive to healthy discussion.

The key to all of this, however, is not the “positivity” or “negativity” of the content – it is the constructiveness. Positivity tends to be better than negativity, but if it is constructive (whether positive or negative), it is okay; and if it is not constructive (whether positive or negative), it is not okay.

[Slave to Darkness]

Ahh the ETL... Now that is when you see the best of people here, such a good vibe. :wub:

[Captain Idaho]

The real question is; now that Tyler has brought it up, is Enya onto topic or constructive.

 

;)

 

(Trying to lighten the mood of course, but it was a brilliant post by Tyler)

Edited December 29, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Slave to Darkness]

The real question is; now that Tyler has brought it up, is Enya onto topic or constructive.

 

 

(Trying to lighten the mood of course, but it was a brilliant post by Tyler)

Enya has her moments but I prefer Clannad, their song 'Robin the Hooded Man' used on the 80's show Robin of Sherwood is an absolute Celtic club banger ;) Ive thrown some mad shapes on the dancefloor to that before in Metal clubs before until the DJ stopped taking my requests when I bought CD's in. :lol:

 

(Just trynna geep the good vibe goin, Ill stop messing around now). 

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah let's move away from music that doesn't have orks being shot in every verse.

[alfred_the_great]

 

 

The fact you felt personally attacked by that is surprising. Unless you are the chief executive of GW.

This is common across fan communities. People have a hard time separating their notion of themselves from the think they like. Hence why you will always see a variation of the following:

 

Person 1: "I do not like this thing the company did."

Person 2: "I do not like you, Person 1."

 

Person 2 acts as if they are the one to whom Person 1 was directing their comments and responds in kind.

Second time you’ve done this - an interesting rhetorical point.

 

Misses two factors for me: a company is a group of people, who in the main are proud what they do. You are - implicitly - criticising people when you criticise GW.

 

Secondly, it allows you to present people as “That Guy” (classic reddit-esque behaviour), and other them by lumping them into “the Company”.

 

So how about you stop with the ad hom’s and deal with the point: to whit, a number of people on here reflexively criticise GW for everything they do. It became starkly apparent during the posts around the free (that’s right, free) HH scenarios, when people got irate about the rules not being “right” or “should’ve done more”. They were free, you literally had nothing to do for them, yet the opening salvo was “this is not good enough”.

[SvenIronhand]

I definitely agree with the point about Dakka. Place is awful.

Another thing for Marine haters to remember: the vast majority of written material about the setting is about the Imperium. It is the axis on which the setting turns. People who think their factions match Space Marines in popularity or even importance to the setting are deluding themselves. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by SvenIronhand

[Captain Idaho]

Let's not twist things. Criticising a company and everything they produce is not an attack on the people who work for them.

 

They're not acting on their own accord or a personal capacity and you're totally guessing their motivations.