The spread of Toxic Negativity in the B&C community

[BrainFireBob]

 

 

This is not your personal safe space or echo chamber. If a post breaks the forums rules, report it. If it doesn't, but you don't like it, ignore it. If it's the same person bothering you over and over, block them. Super simple. Too many people on the internet have this entitlement nowadays.

 

I find it as Phandaal said earlier, the harassment and toxicness comes from person 2. Was just in the chaos and Eldar thread and saw this:

 

 

When GW say something is gonna be great and worth the wait it never is... I expect little for Chaos or Eldar, not the first time GW have failed to deliver...

Always a ray of sunshine

So person 1 makes a comment about GW, and person 2 makes the comment about person 1 instead about GW. Almost all the negativety I see on the site is from the entitled person 2 who takes criticism about GW personally. I've never understood it.

Except, Slave to Darkness's post was EXACTLY what Orange Knight is talking about.

 

Now, before I go into this, I will state outright: I believe RedComet's response to Slave to Darkness was absolutely wrong and should not have been posted.

 

Ok, with that out the way, lets get in to it:

 

Slave to Darkness posted in a thread discussing the announcement of the new Eldar vs Chaos box set. Their comment did not add anything to the discussion about the announcement of the new Eldar vs Chaos box set, it was just unnecessary negativity about a tangentially related aspect that was not constructive in any way whatsoever. All it did was add to the "air of negativity" that other users are describing.

 

All Slave to Darkness did was air out a grievance with GW about their way of speaking on social media that didn't need to be aired out. Yes RedComet was in the wrong, but Slave to Darkness was also in the wrong for posting an unnecessary, unconstructive negative comment.

 

This is the issue people are having. There is an air of negativity on this board (and elsewhere) because more and more people seem to feel the need to post negativity even when it isn't helpful or constructive. Is Slave to Darkness right to be of the opinion that GW overhypes things? Absolutely, they're totally welcome to that opinion. Did they need to post it in that thread? No, it wasn't helpful or constructive.

Respectfully, I disagree, because without dissenting voices, it presents as as a necessity of agreement. As long as it's restricted to a comment, and the community is not censorious, it establishes that "it is OK, you are not wrong to not like X."

 

In my opinion.

Edited January 3, 2022 by BrainFireBob

[SvenIronhand]

Here’s what I think. Yes, the Eldar players and Xenos players in general do have some legitimate grievances. Their troops models were 20+ years old in some cases. But instead of working around that and doing something constructive, they seem to have become spiteful as a class. Every time I log onto a 40k forum or subreddit or Twitter, I see at least one person complain overmuch about Space Marines or the Imperium getting the lion’s share. It’s tiring to see, day in, day out.

 

I’m not asking people to shut up and take it. But when you have nothing to add to the conversation but whine over toy soldiers, don’t be surprised when you get pushback.

[Scribe]

Here’s what I think. Yes, the Eldar players and Xenos players in general do have some legitimate grievances. Their troops models were 20+ years old in some cases. But instead of working around that and doing something constructive, they seem to have become spiteful as a class. Every time I log onto a 40k forum or subreddit or Twitter, I see at least one person complain overmuch about Space Marines or the Imperium getting the lion’s share. It’s tiring to see, day in, day out.

 

I’m not asking people to shut up and take it. But when you have nothing to add to the conversation but whine over toy soldiers, don’t be surprised when you get pushback.

 

Instead of working around it? Like Xeno and Chaos players have done for...literal decades?

 

LOL.

 

Whats your timescale with the hobby if I may ask.

 

If I get bored enough, I'm going to try and catalog exactly how many releases Primaris have received, and compare that with literally everyone else.

 

There is a reason people are pissed and fed up with it.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Scribe

[Noserenda]

Yeah it does get frustrating sometimes when some folks go "but muh xenos" on every release when GW is clearly and obviously working its way through major revamps for every faction that needs em about as fast as they can.

I mean ultimately the only other answer is "buy more toys" which sucks, and its slow, but its the only cast iron metric you can work from and i say that even as a fan of arguably the two most neglected factions in 40k Though seemingly Corsairs and Sisters of Silence are both getting a bone in 2022 lol.  

But yeah, Marines sell in orders of magnitude more than everything else, which means they get more new stuff, to support developing the rest. Mostly in the hope they can strike gold again tbh but the artists in the middle get to make cool toys :D 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Noserenda

[Scribe]

Yeah it does get frustrating sometimes when some folks go "but muh xenos" on every release when GW is clearly and obviously working its way through major revamps for every Xenos faction that needs em about as fast as they can.

 

I mean ultimately the only other answer is "buy more toys" which sucks, and its slow, but its the only cast iron metric you can work from and i say that even as a fan of arguably the two most neglected factions in 40k Though seemingly Corsairs and Sisters of Silence are both getting a bone in 2022 lol.  

 

Bear with me here but...why is that frustrating?

 

Frustrating, is rocking a central kit from 1999.

Frustrating, is having releases for a faction LAP every other faction.

Frustrating, is having your faction devalued, ignored, and provided less, for decades.

 

GW needs to hear about it, and the beatings should continue until moral updates improve.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Scribe

[Brother Tyler]

Problems inevitably arise when we try to pinpoint specific issues or sub-groups as sources of negativity and toxicity. Such generalizations create unnecessary rancor and side-step the actual issue of negativity and toxicity, which can arise from any sub-group or individual over myriad issues.

[jaxom]

 

Here’s what I think. Yes, the Eldar players and Xenos players in general do have some legitimate grievances. Their troops models were 20+ years old in some cases. But instead of working around that and doing something constructive, they seem to have become spiteful as a class. Every time I log onto a 40k forum or subreddit or Twitter, I see at least one person complain overmuch about Space Marines or the Imperium getting the lion’s share. It’s tiring to see, day in, day out.

 

I’m not asking people to shut up and take it. But when you have nothing to add to the conversation but whine over toy soldiers, don’t be surprised when you get pushback.

 

Instead of working around it? Like Xeno and Chaos players have done for...literal decades?

 

LOL.

 

Whats your timescale with the hobby if I may ask.

 

If I get bored enough, I'm going to try and catalog exactly how many releases Primaris have received, and compare that with literally everyone else.

 

There is a reason people are pissed and fed up with it.

 

 

As someone on both sides of it, for me the part that I see as not-constructive is when the grievances appear in (what I see as) non-relevant topics. Discussing a lack of xenos releases in the topic for the new Primaris Ancient model does not add anything to the topic of discussion. A separate topic should, in my opinion, be started. For example, I think the doomsday ark needs a lot of love, but the Railgun topic is not where I think such a discussion should take place.

 

I acknowledge it can be hard to tell sometimes what is relevant and what is not (e.g. Custodes release topic going into the different FW design teams as part of discussing the schism between GW and FW impacting what's in the codex). 

[Scribe]

 

 

As someone on both sides of it, for me the part that I see as not-constructive is when the grievances appear in (what I see as) non-relevant topics. Discussing a lack of xenos releases in the topic for the new Primaris Ancient model does not add anything to the topic of discussion. A separate topic should, in my opinion, be started. For example, I think the doomsday ark needs a lot of love, but the Railgun topic is not where I think such a discussion should take place.

 

I acknowledge it can be hard to tell sometimes what is relevant and what is not (e.g. Custodes release topic going into the different FW design teams as part of discussing the schism between GW and FW impacting what's in the codex). 

 

 

I get it, and this is fair but here's the scenario's I see.

 

GW Releases a Xeno: Xeno Fan #1 "Fantastic, thanks GW!"

 

Now if this happens once a year thats 1 piece of feedback that GW may see.

 

GW Releases a Primaris: Xeno Fan #1 "GW where is my update?!"

 

Now if this happens six times a year, thats 6 pieces of feedback that GW may see.

 

If Xeno players only comment when their faction is updated (god help you if you are a nid player?) then how many opportunities do they have to comment towards GW?

[BrainFireBob]

 

 

 

 

 

As someone on both sides of it, for me the part that I see as not-constructive is when the grievances appear in (what I see as) non-relevant topics. Discussing a lack of xenos releases in the topic for the new Primaris Ancient model does not add anything to the topic of discussion. A separate topic should, in my opinion, be started. For example, I think the doomsday ark needs a lot of love, but the Railgun topic is not where I think such a discussion should take place.

 

I acknowledge it can be hard to tell sometimes what is relevant and what is not (e.g. Custodes release topic going into the different FW design teams as part of discussing the schism between GW and FW impacting what's in the codex).

 

I get it, and this is fair but here's the scenario's I see.

 

GW Releases a Xeno: Xeno Fan #1 "Fantastic, thanks GW!"

 

Now if this happens once a year thats 1 piece of feedback that GW may see.

 

GW Releases a Primaris: Xeno Fan #1 "GW where is my update?!"

 

Now if this happens six times a year, thats 6 pieces of feedback that GW may see.

 

If Xeno players only comment when their faction is updated (god help you if you are a nid player?) then how many opportunities do they have to comment towards GW?

Commenting here is not feedback to GW.

 

Much like your comment on the beatings- you aren't hitting GW with your complaints, you are impacting other posters.

 

I disagree with the OP, in that there is no moral imperative nor should there be an expectation of forcing a like minded reaction space. That's censorious.

 

Neither should we irritate, aggravate, or otherwise verbally attack the person next to us randomly when angry at something someone else does.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Not too many thousands of years ago the Bolter and Chainsword Board was about and only about...... SPACE MARINES 

 

When the B&C was opened up to our fellow Imperial and Xeno fraters there was no stipulation made other than obey the rules of the B&C. It's a fact that Space Marines are the corner stone of 40K sales for GW. That's unlikely to change anytime soon. It's only natural that those fraters who's passions are centered around non-Astartes armies are more than a little disappointed when their factions are neglected for years on end and are merely thrown a bone (new codex, a few models, etc.). This can even lead to some bitterness that might spill over to the announcement of yet another new Space Marine Primaris model. Yes, maybe it is technically off topic, but so long as it doesn't lead to a tsunami that derails the topic or violates rules of conduct in a major way, it's actually healthy to let folk vent a bit and let the community at large know their disfavor... even if it sprinkles a little rain on your enthusiasm  If you think it's getting out of hand, then report it.

 

So, my point is.... and I can't quite believe I'm saying this, but.... Scribe makes a good point (WHEW...... that was hard). I understand and even sympathize with those who are demoralized by the negative trend the perceive. It demoralizes me too. But if it is a trend here it reflects a trend in society at large, and there is no easy fix to this (if there even should be). We'll just have to both tolerate it and deal with it on a case-by-case basis.

[Stofficus]

 

 

 

As someone on both sides of it, for me the part that I see as not-constructive is when the grievances appear in (what I see as) non-relevant topics. Discussing a lack of xenos releases in the topic for the new Primaris Ancient model does not add anything to the topic of discussion. A separate topic should, in my opinion, be started. For example, I think the doomsday ark needs a lot of love, but the Railgun topic is not where I think such a discussion should take place.

 

I acknowledge it can be hard to tell sometimes what is relevant and what is not (e.g. Custodes release topic going into the different FW design teams as part of discussing the schism between GW and FW impacting what's in the codex). 

 

 

I get it, and this is fair but here's the scenario's I see.

 

GW Releases a Xeno: Xeno Fan #1 "Fantastic, thanks GW!"

 

Now if this happens once a year thats 1 piece of feedback that GW may see.

 

GW Releases a Primaris: Xeno Fan #1 "GW where is my update?!"

 

Now if this happens six times a year, thats 6 pieces of feedback that GW may see.

 

If Xeno players only comment when their faction is updated (god help you if you are a nid player?) then how many opportunities do they have to comment towards GW?

 

 

And this is a very valid point, because at the end of the day, GW is not a very market-savvy company. Until very recently they prided themselves on basically ignoring customer and community feedback, and are still just getting used to the idea of considering what their customer base wants beyond looking at sales figures. 

 

Right now, Space Marines, above and beyond everything else to a truly obscene degree, get the most sales and the most support from GW. If we want to build an echo chamber around how great that is, that only reinforces that will only ever be what GW does. 

 

Now that being said, I very much doubt GW does much diving into community forums like this - I very much they're at the point where wider customer base analytics are something they do, so nothing we say or do here is about communicating to GW or influencing their behaviour in any way. As such, critical conversations should, in my opinion, be about challenging people's biases and getting them a bit out of their niches and being perhaps a bit more sympathetic to the plight of factions which haven't had a single model update in 3 editions. Because we have effective moderation that should occur without causing chaos and vitriol, but, well, it is the internet after all. 

[Scribe]

 

 

 

 

 

As someone on both sides of it, for me the part that I see as not-constructive is when the grievances appear in (what I see as) non-relevant topics. Discussing a lack of xenos releases in the topic for the new Primaris Ancient model does not add anything to the topic of discussion. A separate topic should, in my opinion, be started. For example, I think the doomsday ark needs a lot of love, but the Railgun topic is not where I think such a discussion should take place.

 

I acknowledge it can be hard to tell sometimes what is relevant and what is not (e.g. Custodes release topic going into the different FW design teams as part of discussing the schism between GW and FW impacting what's in the codex).

I get it, and this is fair but here's the scenario's I see.

 

GW Releases a Xeno: Xeno Fan #1 "Fantastic, thanks GW!"

 

Now if this happens once a year thats 1 piece of feedback that GW may see.

 

GW Releases a Primaris: Xeno Fan #1 "GW where is my update?!"

 

Now if this happens six times a year, thats 6 pieces of feedback that GW may see.

 

If Xeno players only comment when their faction is updated (god help you if you are a nid player?) then how many opportunities do they have to comment towards GW?

Commenting here is not feedback to GW.

 

Much like your comment on the beatings- you aren't hitting GW with your complaints, you are impacting other posters.

 

I disagree with the OP, in that there is no moral imperative nor should there be an expectation of forcing a like minded reaction space. That's censorious.

 

Neither should we irritate, aggravate, or otherwise verbally attack the person next to us randomly when angry at something someone else does.

 

 

If you think GW doesnt see feedback generated on B&C or Reddit, I believe you are mistaken, greatly.

[Scribe]

 

So, my point is.... and I can't quite believe I'm saying this, but.... Scribe makes a good point (WHEW...... that was hard). I understand and even sympathize with those who are demoralized by the negative trend the perceive. It demoralizes me too. But if it is a trend here it reflects a trend in society at large, and there is no easy fix to this (if there even should be). We'll just have to both tolerate it and deal with it on a case-by-case basis.

 

....

 

So we are enemies then?!

 

I always knew! (Kidding...maybe ;))

[Dark Shepherd]

Its a vicious circle with marines as posters boys...they get new toys which gets them more fans so they get more new toys as theyll sell the best. Same goes with letting certain armies age badly. Theyre making an attempt to have Sisters as a poster child which is good too

 

I mean this as positively as possible but we are where we are with them NOW, but also I think they have to be seen (or recognised?) as an 11 codex/codex supplement faction, not just one army. So when GW release Primaris Escalators its not the same as eg a new Tau unit

 

That said there is a major growth delta in more scifi/alien factions like Eldar and Nids. And Im glad theres a big push on for the neglected factions

Edited January 3, 2022 by Dark Shepherd

[jaxom]

Hiding quotations to save space; they're about GW and seeing what is posted on the B&C.

Hidden Content

 

 

 

As someone on both sides of it, for me the part that I see as not-constructive is when the grievances appear in (what I see as) non-relevant topics. Discussing a lack of xenos releases in the topic for the new Primaris Ancient model does not add anything to the topic of discussion. A separate topic should, in my opinion, be started. For example, I think the doomsday ark needs a lot of love, but the Railgun topic is not where I think such a discussion should take place.

I acknowledge it can be hard to tell sometimes what is relevant and what is not (e.g. Custodes release topic going into the different FW design teams as part of discussing the schism between GW and FW impacting what's in the codex).

I get it, and this is fair but here's the scenario's I see.

GW Releases a Xeno: Xeno Fan #1 "Fantastic, thanks GW!"

Now if this happens once a year thats 1 piece of feedback that GW may see.

GW Releases a Primaris: Xeno Fan #1 "GW where is my update?!"

Now if this happens six times a year, thats 6 pieces of feedback that GW may see.

If Xeno players only comment when their faction is updated (god help you if you are a nid player?) then how many opportunities do they have to comment towards GW?

Commenting here is not feedback to GW.

Much like your comment on the beatings- you aren't hitting GW with your complaints, you are impacting other posters.

 

 

Scribe made an excellent point and one I hadn't considered because I don't think of the B&C as a place where GW (or its employees) will see unsolicited feedback. I'd like to offer why I think that and perhaps this may help people engage with BrainFireBob's comment.

 

Big disclaimer: the company in question is not GW, but their behavior influences how I think all of the big game companies behave and that's why I don't think of the B&C as a place GW watches. Note that it is also specifically for unsolicited feedback.

 

I know that in the past, parts of GW had reached out to specific subforum mods (solicited feedback), but this was circa 2002-2003. My more recent experiences with game companies interacting with forums are from 2010 and onward. A friend of mine got an interview at a big game company and asked in the interview if one reason was because they had seen her homebrew content for their system (they tended to be among top-rated on the largest forum for the system). They told her that they had never seen it, and if she was hired that she would have to stop reading and posting on the forum. There was too much risk that unsolicited material influencing releases could lead to legal issues so the top-down policy was "Do Not Engage" except through official channels. She got hired and learned that the the media team was responsible for engaging with the community (primarily through social media) and trawling forums. Actionable information was sent along to other departments to be sifted, but designers never received anything that came from unsolicited sources. Content-pursuit decisions were made above their heads and they were tabula rasa when it came to design space. Since then, social media has exploded. The media team stopped trawling forums because it was no where near as efficient. Social media makes up the vast majority of data because it's easy (and automated with the right software) to follow trends and posters across multiple platforms. The assumption is the company's media team can tag influencers and assuming they're carry the gospel back-and-forth between social media and forums. To bring it back around: why look at B&C when a bot can gather, collate, and parse (for example) Valrak's/MWG's/TTT's/Miniac's/etc's social media trends and the engagement with and comments from their latest twitter/IG/tiktok/etc posts and videos?

 

EDIT: hid the quotations

Edited January 3, 2022 by jaxom

[BrainFireBob]

Yes. Similarly, sufficiently cranky posters can be put on "ignore."

 

I'm sure there are metrics they extract- say, post activity associated with a new release or video- and maybe broad bucketizing of same- negative vs positive vs unclassifiable by keyword- but feedback from unaffiliated third party sources I doubt

[Scribe]

I'm not saying there is a Forums Division, within GW.

 

What I'm saying, is this forum (and Portent/Warseer before it imploded) and likely a few others + reddit, contribute to various degrees into the perception of the game. I would be utterly shocked, if there are not GW staff that lurk on this forum not as GW staffers, but as simply hobbyists like the rest of us.

 

"Choom", is canon, and unless I am mistaken, that started here. ;) 

[Noserenda]

 

Yeah it does get frustrating sometimes when some folks go "but muh xenos" on every release when GW is clearly and obviously working its way through major revamps for every Xenos faction that needs em about as fast as they can.

 

I mean ultimately the only other answer is "buy more toys" which sucks, and its slow, but its the only cast iron metric you can work from and i say that even as a fan of arguably the two most neglected factions in 40k Though seemingly Corsairs and Sisters of Silence are both getting a bone in 2022 lol.  

 

Bear with me here but...why is that frustrating?

 

Frustrating, is rocking a central kit from 1999.

Frustrating, is having releases for a faction LAP every other faction.

Frustrating, is having your faction devalued, ignored, and provided less, for decades.

 

GW needs to hear about it, and the beatings should continue until moral updates improve.

 

Its background noise, its been heard so often its about as insightful as people trying to comment "First" on a youtube video and right now there is serious evidence that GW is already on it, im not sure what flogging a dead horse is really bringing to the table? I am feeling the answer is closer to "Bringing everyone down" than "Changing GWs 5 year plan".

 

As i mentioned, my main factions got pretty much removed from the game entirely so i could care less about being "belittled" ;) 

 

If GW harvest info from forums, which feels unlikely given the very dim view the "company culture" has of them, it is going to be more focused on the topic at hand and i certainly doubt its going to move anything up the planned release schedule. If you want to make a difference, hit up their social media in a vaguely constructive way, we have actual evidence that can work (Custodes FW rules) while grousing on Forums has been going on longer than most of the kits people dislike to little effect.

 

To be clear as you did seem to be veering the point before, GW is apparently doing these things already but cant do everything at once, there are more constructive ways to possibly hustle that along but really a lot of it is low grade background noise that just serves to make everyone just a little sadder. 

 

And to clarify, i hate toxic or enforced positivity more but there is a time and a place!

[Scribe]

 

To be clear as you did seem to be veering the point before, GW is apparently doing these things already but cant do everything at once, there are more constructive ways to possibly hustle that along but really a lot of it is low grade background noise that just serves to make everyone just a little sadder. 

 

I get what you are saying, but I think we can just agree to disagree, especially on the latter.

[BrainFireBob]

I'm not saying there is a Forums Division, within GW.

 

What I'm saying, is this forum (and Portent/Warseer before it imploded) and likely a few others + reddit, contribute to various degrees into the perception of the game. I would be utterly shocked, if there are not GW staff that lurk on this forum not as GW staffers, but as simply hobbyists like the rest of us.

 

"Choom", is canon, and unless I am mistaken, that started here. ;)

And you assume they take note of the opinions of all other posters and officially-unofficially pass this up and they are taken seriously and soberly in place of whatever metrics they do use?

 

Noserenda is correct, it hits a point it reads as "bring everyone else down", which incidentally also can read as "if I can't get mine yet no one else can get theirs until I get mine." That's when, IMO, it becomes toxic.

[Scribe]

 

I'm not saying there is a Forums Division, within GW.

 

What I'm saying, is this forum (and Portent/Warseer before it imploded) and likely a few others + reddit, contribute to various degrees into the perception of the game. I would be utterly shocked, if there are not GW staff that lurk on this forum not as GW staffers, but as simply hobbyists like the rest of us.

 

"Choom", is canon, and unless I am mistaken, that started here.

And you assume they take note of the opinions of all other posters and officially-unofficially pass this up and they are taken seriously and soberly in place of whatever metrics they do use?

 

Noserenda is correct, it hits a point it reads as "bring everyone else down", which incidentally also can read as "if I can't get mine yet no one else can get theirs until I get mine." That's when, IMO, it becomes toxic.

 

 

If it 'brings everyone down' then yes, I do believe it would by necessity also influence the GW staff lurking, no?

 

I mean anyone basing an argument around 'toxicity' or 'problematic' is already just pushing an angle that I wont get behind. If people being tired of Primaris after Primaris after Primaris, while they languish with models older than my son (who will be graduating this year) and voicing it is 'bringing you down' well...

 

This threads not going places. I'll be bowing out. 

[BrainFireBob]

Voicing it is fine. Encouraged, even.

 

Demanding an environment of negativity of everyone in hopes of the offchance of winging a GW employee, IMO, not so much.

 

I disagreed with the OP on needing a negative free environment in reactions, but I also disagree with deliberately spoiling the fun of other frater to send some kind of handwavy message to no one in particular. Lot of room in between.

[Scribe]

Demanding an environment of negativity of everyone in hopes of the offchance of winging a GW employee, IMO, not so much.

 

Literally nobody is doing that, so thats good.

[Noserenda]

I guess, look at it this way, how would you feel if there was a Khorne Berserker kit announced and there were half a dozen posts saying all the Ultramarine units* were over 15 years old, finecast and needed a revamp more? They might be teeeeechnically correct but its hardly going to feel positive? A deliberately extreme example i know, but its a pretty rare release that isnt someone's new favourite jam.

Well i guess unless there was a poll on what range got new stuff, and some frustrating result comes up then its very relevant. GW definitely ditched a bunch of ranges for years, for various reasons as i understand it, but they are producing everything they can at a rate logistics and the local electric grid struggled with but they still cant do everything at once, or even the rate they planned for as the current Codex delays show.

They know, WE know, i doubt anything is going to speed it up noticeably and spreading a little more negativity in the meantime isnt helping.

*Obviously not heroes, or general marine stuff, specifically Ultramarines units. 

[Scribe]

I guess, look at it this way, how would you feel if there was a Khorne Berserker kit announced and there were half a dozen posts saying all the Ultramarine units* were over 15 years old, finecast and needed a revamp more? They might be teeeeechnically correct but its hardly going to feel positive? A deliberately extreme example i know, but its a pretty rare release that isnt someone's new favourite jam.

 

How would I feel if an Ultramarine player complained that I finally get Berzerkers after 20+ years?

 

I would laugh.

 

Then I would laugh some more.

 

Then I would startle myself at 10pm as I nod off to sleep, and I would smile, chuckle quietly, and rest easy.