The spread of Toxic Negativity in the B&C community

[phandaal]

On the flip side, imagine waiting years for a Chaos range update and then being told that Abaddon had secretly been working on new troops for the last 10,000 years and your old Berserkers would be replaced with Chaotis Berzerkors, who are better than your old Berserkers in every way. Also your existing models cannot be used to represent these troops. Ditto for your Chaos Marines, Plague Marines, etc.

 

Might be salty, might feel like more salt was being poured on every time GW announced the next new improved replacement Chaos unit.

 

Or if today's Eldar Guardian announcement had instead been advanced Eldar Guarditos who were summoned from the Webway by Yvraine to replace every Craftworld's armies after 10,000 years in hiding... and so on.

 

People could probably do with less negativity in general, but most people do not feel like they are in the wrong with whatever opinion they have. We should all at least try and understand where people are coming from. It may not make seeing the same thing a dozen times any less tiresome, but it will probably help us all avoid responding in anger when ignoring the post might be the best thing to do.

[Scribe]

On the flip side, imagine waiting years for a Chaos range update and then being told that Abaddon had secretly been working on new troops for the last 10,000 years and your old Berserkers would be replaced with Chaotis Berzerkors, who are better than your old Berserkers in every way. Also your existing models cannot be used to represent these troops. Ditto for your Chaos Marines, Plague Marines, etc.

 

Might be salty, might feel like more salt was being poured on every time GW announced the next new improved replacement Chaos unit.

 

Or if today's Eldar Guardian announcement had instead been advanced Eldar Guarditos who were summoned from the Webway by Yvraine to replace every Craftworld's armies after 10,000 years in hiding... and so on.

 

People could probably do with less negativity in general, but most people do not feel like they are in the wrong with whatever opinion they have. We should all at least try and understand where people are coming from. It may not make seeing the same thing a dozen times any less tiresome, but it will probably help us all avoid responding in anger when ignoring the post might be the best thing to do.

 

Absolutely. People can comment on whatever, like whatever, dislike whatever.

 

In the example of bespoke Ultramarine models vs Berzerkers I am FACTUALLY laughing out loud at the very idea of a complaining Ultramarine player.

 

It would not bring me down in the slightest, as that scenario would have me ACTUALLY laughing at the absurdity of it. I wouldnt need to make a scene over it, but I'd be laughing all the same.

 

Your comments is right on.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Please stop with the veiled Primaris bashing… it’s very inappropriate here.

[phandaal]

Please stop with the veiled Primaris bashing… it’s very inappropriate here.

 

It was intended to illustrate for non-Space Marine why a Space Marine fan might feel justified in their dislike of the way their range refresh was handled. It always helps to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

 

BTW - I own a ton of Primaris models. Looking to the left of where I am typing this right now there are 5 Intercessors, 5 Inceptors, and 6 Eradicators primed and ready to be painted and join dozens of their buddies in my collection, and many more ready to be assembled out of my (shrinking) Pile of Shame.

 

Edit - and a Phobos Captain primed for painting. Forgot about him since he got stuck in a drawer while cleaning the other day. And "dozens" is close to 70 painted Primaris of various flavors. Think the Pile of Shame Pride is something like 30 infantry and 12 bikes. And there are a handful in storage... some day I will get the nerve to paint up that Redemptor Dreadnought.

 

Maybe not the biggest collection compared to some people here, but certainly not the kind of army someone would have if they just wanted to sit around hating on Primaris all day.

Edited January 4, 2022 by phandaal

[jaxom]

 

I mean anyone basing an argument around 'toxicity' or 'problematic' is already just pushing an angle that I wont get behind. If people being tired of Primaris after Primaris after Primaris, while they languish with models older than my son (who will be graduating this year) and voicing it is 'bringing you down' well...

 

 

Please stop with the veiled Primaris bashing… it’s very inappropriate here.

 

It was intended to illustrate for non-Space Marine why a Space Marine fan might feel justified in their dislike of the way their range refresh was handled. It always helps to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

 

I understand the sentiment and the frustration (I'll even go out on a branch and almost everyone on the forum does either personally or putting on someone else's shoes). I think it's an issue of where the frustration is aired. I would have no problem if every topic about a new Space Marine release (meant for discussing the details of the release; like how ugly the Uriel Ventris bare head looked  ) were accompanied by another topic to criticize a new Space Marine release and suggest other lines that need attention. 

[jaxom]

 

I think it's an issue of where the frustration is aired. I would have no problem if every topic about a new Space Marine release (meant for discussing the details of the release; like how ugly the Uriel Ventris bare head looked msn-wink.gif ) were accompanied by another topic to criticize a new Space Marine release and suggest other lines that need attention.

The problem there, arises when the same people who don't want you/me/him/her/them/and/or anyone else's negative opinion/s to harsh their mellow as it were. They'll be in there proclaiming the same problems with that negativity. That it hurts their fragile sensibilities and they don't want to see it there either.

 

 

I think relevant buzzkills are a-okay. There's a reason I went with Ventris as my example; that discussion had a lot of people who did not like the sculpt and were very vocal about it to those who were excited to get rules for Ventris. It was less okay (to me) when it turned into slog of "where are the phoenix lords?" 

[Scribe]

 

 

I think relevant buzzkills are a-okay. There's a reason I went with Ventris as my example; that discussion had a lot of people who did not like the sculpt and were very vocal about it to those who were excited to get rules for Ventris. It was less okay (to me) when it turned into slog of "where are the phoenix lords?" 

 

 

LOL see but...where are the Phoenix Lords?

 

Rando Ultramarine Character (when they have Marnus with Honor Guard, Tigurius, AND their Primarch?!) vs models that are at a glance still Metalt?!

 

Yes, where are the Phoenix Lords! :D

 

Do you see what I'm saying here?

 

One CHAPTER of Marines, has 3 bespoke Characters AND THEIR PRIMARCH.

 

Eldar Phoenix Lords? Well Jain Zar.

[Schlitzaf]

Hey Drazhar is techenically or was a oheonix lord!

[Wulf Vengis]

I think relevant buzzkills are a-okay. There's a reason I went with Ventris as my example; that discussion had a lot of people who did not like the sculpt and were very vocal about it to those who were excited to get rules for Ventris. It was less okay (to me) when it turned into slog of "where are the phoenix lords?"

I agree whole-heartedly and yet i stand by an earlier post of mine in which i said that these types of negatives are usually (not always) found in the "new item reveal" thread. Which (unless I'm missing something) is the correct place for a Frater to voice a dislike of the "new item" in question.

Should they spout they're "but what about X" comment in that same place?

... Ehhh, maaayyybeee. That's where the subjective (or is it objective, at this point i can't tell the difference anymore) to the reader part comes in.

Honestly...best case scenario just post whatever it is you want to post in the appropriate threads. If its too off topic it'll get reported/trimmed/split/what have you and that'll be the end. No bloody noses or hurt feelings.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Wulf Vengis

[Monstra Sumus]

Not enough people are able to separate themselves from their opinion. When someone disagrees or even attacks your opinion they aren't attacking you. Unless they start throwing out ad hominem barbs.

 

Take Scribe and the post above for example. Utter drivel, yet by no means do I respect him any less for derailing this train wreck again.

 

Joking aside, I feel we as a user group can do better than what we have done. We need to be a little less emotional in our responses and more constructive. If you (the royal you, not Scribe ;) ) read something that boils your blood, before responding, close the thread and come back to it later.

 

The Disagreement will still be there but maybe without the vitriol.

Edited January 4, 2022 by NomadPainting

[Scribe]

If you (the royal you, not Scribe ) read something that boils your blood, before responding, close the thread and come back to it later.

 

Wait, am I not the royal you?!? Am I being attacked once again?!

 

Twice in one day.... ;)

[phandaal]

Not enough people are able to separate themselves from their opinion. When someone disagrees or even attacks your opinion they aren't attacking you. Unless they start throwing out ad hominem barbs.

 

Take Scribe and the post above for example. Utter drivel, yet by no means do I respect him any less for derailing this train wreck again.

 

Joking aside, I feel we as a user group can do better than what we have done. We need to be a little less emotional in our responses and more constructive. If you (the royal you, not Scribe ;) ) read something that boils your blood, before responding, close the thread and come back to it later.

 

The Disagreement will still be there but maybe without the vitriol.

Not gonna lie, whenever I see a joke about Dark Angels being Chaos/Traitors I get a little salty.

 

Like can't you see that they do what they do because they are incredibly loyal???? And do not get me started about Roboute Guilliman and his supposed tactical genius. HA! The Lion laughs at your tactics. Or he would, if he weren't brooding.

 

...anyway. I get what you mean.

[Monstra Sumus]

 

Not enough people are able to separate themselves from their opinion. When someone disagrees or even attacks your opinion they aren't attacking you. Unless they start throwing out ad hominem barbs.

 

Take Scribe and the post above for example. Utter drivel, yet by no means do I respect him any less for derailing this train wreck again.

 

Joking aside, I feel we as a user group can do better than what we have done. We need to be a little less emotional in our responses and more constructive. If you (the royal you, not Scribe ;) ) read something that boils your blood, before responding, close the thread and come back to it later.

 

The Disagreement will still be there but maybe without the vitriol.

Not gonna lie, whenever I see a joke about Dark Angels being Chaos/Traitors I get a little salty.

 

Like can't you see that they do what they do because they are incredibly loyal???? And do not get me started about Roboute Guilliman and his supposed tactical genius. HA! The Lion laughs at your tactics. Or he would, if he weren't brooding.

 

...anyway. I get what you mean.

It's incredibly old hat and I totally understand how you feel about it.

 

The Dark Angels don't deserve the crap they get. Hell, even the Ultramarines don't deserve half of it, Matt Wards atrocious portrayal deserves it.

 

I've played Marines Malevolent since 2009 and it's a constant slog against the frankly unimaginative pop jokes.

 

Realistically we all know the joke Chapter is the Space Wolves.

[Tyriks]

Ok...i have to stop this post. The more we go into depth about this mentality of "ow my special/fragile feelings are being hurt because you don't like what i like" the more furious i get.

I could direct everyone to accept that this attitude or mentality is an immature and unhealthy side effect of people's upbringing but then I'd be the bad guy. I will say that, that type of mentality is akin to a bratty spoiled child.

So I'll take a moment to compose myself.

Is getting "furious" about a stranger's opinion any better than getting bummed out by it? Either way, you're giving someone else's opinion way too much weight. You're better off just letting it go.

 

And because this is text, I just want to clarify that my intent isn't to criticize, just to offer advice. I agree with most of your posts on this thread.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Please stop with the veiled Primaris bashing… it’s very inappropriate here.

 

It was intended to illustrate for non-Space Marine why a Space Marine fan might feel justified in their dislike of the way their range refresh was handled. It always helps to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

 

BTW - I own a ton of Primaris models. Looking to the left of where I am typing this right now there are 5 Intercessors, 5 Inceptors, and 6 Eradicators primed and ready to be painted and join dozens of their buddies in my collection, and many more ready to be assembled out of my (shrinking) Pile of Shame.

 

Edit - and a Phobos Captain primed for painting. Forgot about him since he got stuck in a drawer while cleaning the other day. And "dozens" is close to 70 painted Primaris of various flavors. Think the Pile of Shame Pride is something like 30 infantry and 12 bikes. And there are a handful in storage... some day I will get the nerve to paint up that Redemptor Dreadnought.

 

Maybe not the biggest collection compared to some people here, but certainly not the kind of army someone would have if they just wanted to sit around hating on Primaris all day.

 

……

 

Heres the thing -> people are going nuts about new plastic aeldari and that is okay, indeed. So think about that just being happy about something new, no baggage attached.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[Slave to Darkness]

If memory serves the sparking between myself and redcomet was on the Chaos vs Eldar box. I collect both armies, both since 1st ed, me saying I expect little wasnt crapping on anybody here but I have little faith in GW, 30 years I have handed them money for books that are useless months later (ahh traitor legions book, just what the CSM community needs, oh wait nevermind). If people get upset over an unpopular opinion over toys Id hate to see them deal with something important like politics or religion, hell one fraiter was implying I share Arch's spicy views because I dared mention him, having someone here insinuate im a homophopic, transphobic racist is bloody toxic, but learning from this thread itself I walked away before I took the bait and got myself a warning or a ban. But Im still bloody fuming about that, but Im not petty and Im not gonna ruin the mood here by arguing over it. In general even though we are all VERY passionate about what were talkin about here we are dealing with it well, this is far from toxic imho, and thats why I am proud to say I use B&C.

[Slave to Darkness]

Sorry for double post, I just thought, if were so split on toxic/non toxic behaviour here what options do we have? This threads been locked once, and were back to taking shots at each other again. Ppl keep calling me out for one comment I made last week saying Im toxic but they are coming across just as toxic as I was (not redcomit, were chill).

 

I apologised publicly a few days ago for my behaviour and have been trying to have a more positive attitude here, Im trying to correct my behaviour, some of you could try doing the same.

[Scribe]

Sorry for double post, I just thought, if were so split on toxic/non toxic behaviour here what options do we have? This threads been locked once, and were back to taking shots at each other again. Ppl keep calling me out for one comment I made last week saying Im toxic but they are coming across just as toxic as I was (not redcomit, were chill).

 

I apologised publicly a few days ago for my behaviour and have been trying to have a more positive attitude here, Im trying to correct my behaviour, some of you could try doing the same.

 

Bro, you have nothing to correct.

 

The solution is, as its always been.

 

If someone doesnt like a post. Report it. If one cannot get through the day while seeing poster X exist, they have a Block function.

 

If they still just cannot get on with their day...log off. Turn off the PC, and pick up a paint brush.

 

There is a nice little list of people who for whatever reason are on my Block list. 9 times out of 10, its because their continued existence was going to get ME in trouble with the law around here.

 

That's on me, at this point. So I can do something (Block) or not come here, or in an ideal world, I could grow up and not be bothered by some pixels on a screen. Since I like to come here now and again, the best option is to block those folks, until they either get themselves banned, or they move on.

[Antarius]

I say this with absolutely no malice: to an outside observer, it does seem a little contradictory to post at length about how infuriating you find other people's opinions and that the only possible reasons for holding them are psychological, emotional or moral failings, if your point is that people shouldn't be upset about other people expressing their opinions.

That being said, I understand where you're coming from, for the exact reason that other people's opinions do, in fact, matter to me. Sometimes I, too become upset at someone's opinion, so I totally get it.

The thing is, noone on here (and probably noone in the universe) is a being of pure reason and we come here for an exchange of opinions on a subject that matters emotionally to us. To me, it doesn't seem unreasonable to discuss how to make that exchange of opinions enjoyable to as wide a range of users as possible, even if that includes raising the possibility that maybe sometimes I shouldn't express my own unfiltered opinion on a particular topic if all it can possibly do is annoy people who like whatever thing I don't like.
This, in my view, is what most posters who feel that there is too much "negativity" are talking about, rather than wanting people they don't agree with to shut up and go away (or be carted off to internment camps in the dead of night for not liking primaris enough, as some almost seem to suggest).

The thing is, this is not a freedom of speech/censorship issue and framing it as one seems unreasonable to me. Frankly, raising the spectre of censorship and totalitarianism in this context seems like an attempt to silence users you don't agree with, by framing their opinions as something everyone recognises as far outside the realms of acceptability.
So, at the very least, bringing up "silencing" is a sword that cuts both ways.

However, what this really is about (at least to my mind) is that we should be wary of accidentally "strawmanning" each others' positions (because, even including that one post a couple of pages back, I don't really believe that anybody sets out to deliberately misrepresent each others' positions). I don't think anybody wants to silence people who don't agree with them and conversely, I don't really think people on the other side of the issue wants this forum to be "toxic" in the sense that every topic would be dragged down in a slog of unconstructive complaining. In fact, I don't think the two sides are necessarily very far apart, in fact even framing it as opposing "sides" may be part of why we easily get up in arms about the whole thing.


This, I think, is a brilliant point that illustrates why I consider Wulf's perspective a valuable addition to almost any thread, even if I don't always agree:

 

Reason generally wins out and people have grown to accept that they're not the only person; that their opinion isn't the only opinion and that they have to occasionally say this thing we all hate to say:
"I recognize my failings and shall work to correct them"
I've seen it happen with Frater here. I've seen "that guy" become not "that guy" here on this very forum.

And, in fact, I think it is very much why we're even having this discussion. On most other forums we would not be civilly discussing this, which would mean that we would never have the opportunity to solve our disagreements. In that sense, while I fully understand OP's points and think they are very worthy of consideration, the very fact that we can discuss this issue is a good sign.

 

I really, honestly hope that my post here does not seem like an attack on those of you who disagree with me on the broader issue. My whole point is that we should try to make sure our posts "add more light than heat" and I hope I haven't failed at that with this post.

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

This comment was made by a frater here:

Please stop with the veiled Primaris bashing… it’s very inappropriate here.

 

phandaal and jaxom then responded in a thoughtful way and made valid points and explanations. I have hidden a number of related posts that said much the same except not in manners as thoughtful or tactful. Critiquing a post is NOT an invitation to pile on. This amounts to borderline bullying. Be very careful in your critiques of others and the frequency of those critiques. Anyone taking exception can PM me.

 

=][=

[Dosjetka]

I understand the sentiment and the frustration (I'll even go out on a branch and almost everyone on the forum does either personally or putting on someone else's shoes). I think it's an issue of where the frustration is aired.

I agree with the sentiment here: it's not that you're unhappy about something which is problematic (that would be absurd); it's the way you express it, where you express, and at what frequency you express it.

 

More specifically, my personal opinion is that folks who believe that GW picks up feedback from a forum like this are fooling themselves in most cases: sure, if a specific complaint gained momentum and spread to other message boards/social media platforms, perhaps GW would take notice but most of the time that just isn't the case and I doubt individual GW employees that might be lurking around will report issues further up the chain; however, the best way to let GW know about your dissatisfaction is to contact them directly, via e-mail, their surveys, or their social media pages, rather than (or in addition to) posting here. Those are tried and tested methods, and GW does seem to react to those methods of communication specifically.

 

That doesn't mean that people should not voice their negative opnions on the B&C in a constructive manner, it's more that there is a tendancy to repeat those complaints over and over which sours the atmosphere, whether you realise it or not. It's easy to get caught up in a bubble, in a sort of loop, where you don't sense the impact of your words, but it is critical for the community and for individuals' health for these kind of loops to be (respectfully) pointed out and made explicit so that the person generating this loop can take stock of the situation and, ideally, snap out of it.

 

As a community and as individuals, I believe we can do better and this thread proves, to a large degree, that most people realise that. Let's just hope that it sticks and that we can move forward as a community that cares passionately about our plastic toy soldiers.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Dosjetka
Damned typo.

[Slave to Darkness]

I have taken a little bit of inspiration from the Pre Heresy Smurfs *vomits*, I do like the Theoretical/Practical thing they do, so if I am replying to something that may be taken as toxic Ill break my posts into Positive/Negative, Ill mention what I dont like and why (instead of just saying meh) and I will also mention what (if anything) I do like about the release. Sooner come across as impartial than negative. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

Eh, nvm wasn't the most recent page, would be retreading old ground 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Reinhard

[Monstra Sumus]

I have taken a little bit of inspiration from the Pre Heresy Smurfs *vomits*, I do like the Theoretical/Practical thing they do, so if I am replying to something that may be taken as toxic Ill break my posts into Positive/Negative, Ill mention what I dont like and why (instead of just saying meh) and I will also mention what (if anything) I do like about the release. Sooner come across as impartial than negative. 

 

It is a very effective mode of communication I have found! It allows me to voice my displeasure whilst taking care to represent my intentions without misinterpretation and gives me a different angle for viewing the opposite viewpoint objectively. 

 

Failing that I just roll my eyes and close the thread and go play Supreme Commander for a bit. I resolved to myself a few years back now that I won't let someone get under my skin on the internet. All it does is sour my mood for the people physically sharing my space. 

[SvenIronhand]

 

 

I guess, look at it this way, how would you feel if there was a Khorne Berserker kit announced and there were half a dozen posts saying all the Ultramarine units* were over 15 years old, finecast and needed a revamp more? They might be teeeeechnically correct but its hardly going to feel positive? A deliberately extreme example i know, but its a pretty rare release that isnt someone's new favourite jam.

How would I feel if an Ultramarine player complained that I finally get Berzerkers after 20+ years?

 

I would laugh.

 

Then I would laugh some more.

 

Then I would startle myself at 10pm as I nod off to sleep, and I would smile, chuckle quietly, and rest easy.

Here’s the thing, since I started this mess. I feel like your justification is flimsy. It betrays some of your assumptions about how GW operates or can operate. They don’t really play to public opinion; that’s not how their logistics work. We know from interviews that stuff like Primaris or the Eldar refresh was planned out years in advance, likely during the Kirby era. So I think your idea that you’re reaching GW by posting on B&C is a faulty one. And what does that leave us with?