On Assault Marines and Reivers

[GreyCrow]

This is a big opportunity for Raven Guard players, since they are not necessarily played in the meta and can surprise more than one unattentive opponent.

 

Do they suck? Absolutely!

 

But they have a secret very few know and understand. People usually compare them at a squad by squad level, and yes, they are unremarkable.

 

The secret ? Take 2 big squads and have them play together. In the lists I build these days, I usually take 350-400 points in a support 'group' for a full squad of Troops.

 

20 Reivers dropping in support of 1 Intercessor squad is a major nuisance that the enemy does have to deal with. They can clog guns, bully smaller Troops. 

 

Most players tend to evaluate the effectiveness of a unit by what it can kill. In that dept. Reivers and Assault Marines are lagging behind.

Think of it in terms of how much volume of fire they take away from the rest of the force.

In tactical doctrine, it takes 180 shots to deal with 40 MEQ wounds.

 

It has the added benefit of also not inspiring much threat, is often overlooked or not prioritized, and is a very effective build.

 

Try it one day and let me know how it works for you! :D

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

So the trick is to take TWICE as many bad units to unlock the synergy?  I don't see how 20 reivers is better than just having 20 intercessors or 20 incursors or 2 redemptors or 10 vanguard vets with a support chaplin or just 400 points worth of bladeguard.  

 

What makes them better once you hit 20 that doesn't also apply to any other better units?

[GreyCrow]

Don’t think units, think points.

 

Let’s put it this way : would you rather lose 400 points of blade guard or 400 points of Intercessors or 400 points of Reivers ? I know for me that would be the Reivers.

 

You can use them as a throwaway unit to tie the big guns up, especially in scenarios where you can’t really protect everybody.

 

That also gives you some very mobile units with mass of bodies to get objectives, to force the enemy to dedicate Troops to them.

 

They are basically a volumetric annoyance.

 

—-

 

Looking at Reivers :

- I see them as competing role with Aggressors and Redemptors where they will be a bullet magnet with a potential threat if not dealt with

- In case where the enemy is bringing many gun of high quality, the deep strike makes them a bit more resilient than Aggressors

- Against large anti tank firepower, they are more resilient than Redemptors

- They bring their points back by taking fire away from the other units, with low risk of loss, since their damage contribution will be lower

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Don’t think units, think points.

 

Let’s put it this way : would you rather lose 400 points of blade guard or 400 points of Intercessors or 400 points of Reivers ? I know for me that would be the Reivers.

 

You can use them as a throwaway unit to tie the big guns up, especially in scenarios where you can’t really protect everybody.

 

That also gives you some very mobile units with mass of bodies to get objectives, to force the enemy to dedicate Troops to them.

 

They are basically a volumetric annoyance.

 

—-

 

Looking at Reivers :

- I see them as competing role with Aggressors and Redemptors where they will be a bullet magnet with a potential threat if not dealt with

- In case where the enemy is bringing many gun of high quality, the deep strike makes them a bit more resilient than Aggressors

- Against large anti tank firepower, they are more resilient than Redemptors

- They bring their points back by taking fire away from the other units, with low risk of loss, since their damage contribution will be lower

I would rather lose 400 points of Bladeguard.  They would require vastly more firepower/melee power to remove and would likely have hurt the enemy before being removed.  

 

Could you give an example list with 10+ reivers that had a good result at a recent event?

[GreyCrow]

Happy new year Brother !

 

I’m sure your tactical work doesn’t limit itself to just copying what other people do at events :D

 

Happy to go on a tabletop simulator game to experiment !

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Happy new year Brother !

 

I’m sure your tactical work doesn’t limit itself to just copying what other people do at events

 

Happy to go on a tabletop simulator game to experiment !

No but what happens at events is a good way to gauge which units are good and which are not.  Reivers and assault marines don't appear good on the surface and do not appear in competitive play and I dont think anyone aside from you has tried to argue that the reason for this is because no one was taking enough of them.  

[WrathOfTheLion]

I've taken assault marines for decent results as Dark Angels, but we don't have access to Vanguard Veterans, so there's no choice to make there between the two. What I did in that case was use them alongside bike squads (with obsec, due to Ravenwing) to quickly advance and seize forward objectives, while tactical marines in rhinos were coming in from behind to hold them. I was playing a patrol detachment of greenwing, with a Ravenwing Outrider detachment. I don't play competitive, but it worked well in that case. I did limit myself to only non-Primaris units in that game, because it was fun and that's what I wanted to do that game.

 

For Space Wolves, Skyclaws are a bit better due to having Bloodclaw rules and getting some more attacks.

 

I don't think assault marines are necessarily horrible, but the point cost to get a VV instead in most cases makes it an auto take as far as the upgrade goes. So their point cost vs a Vanguard Veteran point cost isn't good.

 

I'm not as familiar with the RG 40k side though (only doing RG for 30k), so your mileage might vary there.

Edited January 1, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Warhead01]

I like the idea but I have to say I hadn't considered using Reivers to clog my enemies guns before. Mostly I like them for deep strike objective and secondary objectives. I did want to field 30 of them but only have 20. I'm still looking for a good deal on 10 more with close combat weapons. 

[Lord_Ikka]

Don’t think units, think points.

 

Let’s put it this way : would you rather lose 400 points of blade guard or 400 points of Intercessors or 400 points of Reivers ? I know for me that would be the Reivers.

 

You can use them as a throwaway unit to tie the big guns up, especially in scenarios where you can’t really protect everybody.

You're still losing a fifth of your points for a unit that isn't obsec, doesn't have the range to throw out harrassing fire (like Intercessors in tactical doctrine), and can't really kill off a dedicated melee unit that gets into combat with them (like Bladeguard). They have some use as a unit that can charge and tie up the enemy's rear-line firepower, but having 20 of them means that you are placing a lot of your army's points in what is basically a distraction- one that may not even work. It's a gamble, one that most players won't do because it is more likely that using the same amount of points on units like Intercessors or Bladeguard will gain more VP in the end.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Lord_Ikka

[GreyCrow]

All good points here !

 

@Sanguinary : Sorry for the tongue in cheek reply brother ! I have seen too many hobbyists limit themselves and not enjoy the battles because they felt forced to follow the d’la our of the month GT list. Nevermore! I want to free my brothers!

 

You had to in 7th because of how unbalanced the game was, but I feel 9th gives a lot more opportunities to explore new builds.

 

You are 100% correct than on the paper they don’t look appealing at all. I do believe that it’s because they need more bodies on the table to start being effective, and that’s not really reflected in the unit stats.

 

@Warhead : Tell me how it goes brother with 20 ! I wanted to try to field 30 but it felt a bit too much investment (both pts and cash)

It seems you got the idea on what we can do with them! ;)

 

@Ikka : You are very right in the sense that there are different options

 

I’ve had quite good luck with Ultramarines, running 20 autobolt Intercessors suicide rush the board shooting all around to cause a distraction (on top of a core Troops of 30 Rifle Intercessors)

Raven Guard can afford to be more aggresssive with a similar build thanks to the infiltrate and deep strike strats for sure.

 

It’s definitely not a head on mêlée killer, for sure. Better options on the board.

 

I do like to gamble on the adversary taking the bait of an easy kill. Who doesn’t like to wipe models off the board ?:D

 

@Wrath : I totally get what you mean, this is exactly how I see them being used. Either as a rush suicide force, either as a deep strike distraction ahead of a tac squad.

 

In any case, always up to do some TTS practice with y’all, for the Ravenspire !

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

All good points here !

 

@Sanguinary : Sorry for the tongue in cheek reply brother ! I have seen too many hobbyists limit themselves and not enjoy the battles because they felt forced to follow the d’la our of the month GT list. Nevermore! I want to free my brothers!

 

You had to in 7th because of how unbalanced the game was, but I feel 9th gives a lot more opportunities to explore new builds.

 

You are 100% correct than on the paper they don’t look appealing at all. I do believe that it’s because they need more bodies on the table to start being effective, and that’s not really reflected in the unit stats.

 

@Warhead : Tell me how it goes brother with 20 ! I wanted to try to field 30 but it felt a bit too much investment (both pts and cash)

It seems you got the idea on what we can do with them!

 

@Ikka : You are very right in the sense that there are different options

 

I’ve had quite good luck with Ultramarines, running 20 autobolt Intercessors suicide rush the board shooting all around to cause a distraction (on top of a core Troops of 30 Rifle Intercessors)

Raven Guard can afford to be more aggresssive with a similar build thanks to the infiltrate and deep strike strats for sure.

 

It’s definitely not a head on mêlée killer, for sure. Better options on the board.

 

I do like to gamble on the adversary taking the bait of an easy kill. Who doesn’t like to wipe models off the board ?

 

@Wrath : I totally get what you mean, this is exactly how I see them being used. Either as a rush suicide force, either as a deep strike distraction ahead of a tac squad.

 

In any case, always up to do some TTS practice with y’all, for the Ravenspire !

Perhaps a 9th edition RG supplement will make reivers good. 

[Warhead01]

 

@Warhead : Tell me how it goes brother with 20 ! I wanted to try to field 30 but it felt a bit too much investment (both pts and cash)

It seems you got the idea on what we can do with them!

 

 

 

yep, that's the big reason I haven't gotten the third unit. 

For scoring don't forget about how obsec actually works and how to force it to either go back to a model count or take obsec away from the opposition, when you can. 

The strongest thing the Reivers do for me is deep strike. Wish they were more killy in close combat. When I focus on the tactical doctrine, usually do, their ranged is fair with the extra ap and number of shots. Terrain is also a factor.  I would actually see assault Marines with Jump packs as better with those chain swords. 

 

[GreyCrow]

Warhead, from what you write, I understand you equip them with the carbines, correct?

 

And totally in line with your point about forcing people to dedicate obsec units to get the point back. When you drop 20 Reivers, either the guy is forced to bring back 20 or more non Obsec models, either the guy is forced to divert Obsec units back.

[Warhead01]

Warhead, from what you write, I understand you equip them with the carbines, correct?

 

And totally in line with your point about forcing people to dedicate obsec units to get the point back. When you drop 20 Reivers, either the guy is forced to bring back 20 or more non Obsec models, either the guy is forced to divert Obsec units back.

I have 10 of each weapon set up. Wish I had put more thought into it. But still running a squad of 5 with ranged can contribute in several ways. Close combat dedicated may have been a smarter option but I like a combined arms approach and try to build a "3 to1' advantage during my planning/ list building. Just have to play around with the ideas and see what works for you. 

None of this changes Reivers but the do have a roll in my Primaris army, and if a "bad" unit is earning me points then maybe it's working as intended. 

Hell, I've killed a Knight titan with a Reivers pistol shot in one game the AP made it work, it was on it's last wound so no reason not to try, they were right there after all. 

There are so many layers to 9th edition to consider. Like is any unit doing more for you if they are making a charge, which may be of not value later or staying safe and scoring you points. 

Your idea of throwing 20+ Reivers at the enemy and making them waste their recourses and game turns is fine. I used that with large mobs of boys and some coordinated deep strike and pop ups back in 8th. box them in and make them play your game. This was best against castle builds early in 8th. which had no larger plan about winning beyond attrition. Meanwhile the other units go get you your objectives. 

However, the problem is what army are you facing and what kinds of weapons do they have. Meaning against my usual opponents sisters, it's 90% walkers with heavy bolters and layers of rerolls. Super nasty and fully able to delete whole units. Not a good time! 

Other opponents could have lots of trouble with your Reiver wave. Throw in some Assault Intercessors to bat clean up or spearhead an attack and make sure you keep at least 1 Obsec model alive even if you have to spend cp to do it. that could pay off hugely. 

Don't think I am winning any games though. so far I have zero wins but my opponent pool is 1 person, and that sisters army I mentioned. So your mileage may vary! 

If you've got the model try your idea. 

Hey, does the Phobos LT have obsec? Could be clever if he does. 

[Kingnoname1]

What is your point about Reivers? That they should be judged by how much punishment they can take? A squad of 5 Reivers is 90pts without upgrades while a squad of 3 Bladeguard is 105pts. For that 15pts purely on a duability level you get an extra wound, 4++ and 2+. That's a worthwhile trade in any situation I can think of. They can get inbuilt deepstrike but Raven Guard can deepstike any infantry unit so despite the fluff Reivers are probably worse for us than anyone else.

[GreyCrow]

Yep, exactly ! Focusing on the kill is the folly of Chaos, we Astartes are tacticians first and foremost !

 

Joke aside, the difference between them and Bladeguard is you can keep your CPs for something else.

I’d rather have the Bladeguard kill stuff in mêlée rather than be a bullet magnet, if I bring them. They’ll get much more mileage for that purpose.

 

Agreed that they get more mileage in other Chapters due to the additional deployment options here.

 

Despite how they are presented in the fluff, Assault Marines and Reivers are not mêlée damage units.

 

—

 

On the matter of CP usage for Reivers for instance :

 

The Raven’s blade :

- on 2 6 men Bladeguard units : 2 CP for SFTS, 1 CP for Raven’s blade. 3 CP total.

- on 2 10 men Reivers : 1 CP due to built in Deep Strike

 

Attack volume potential is higher as well with 81 attacks on the charge for models with combat blade versus 50 for the Bladeguard. Works good for chaff and will work better against armies with tons of weak infantry while Bladeguard will work better against elite armies.

 

There is also that strat that denies Obsec and can mess with actions.

 

Once again, not arguing that they are the best at everything because they aren’t.

En masse though they are not a useless tool.

 

—

 

The Marine meta right now seems more about smaller more elite armies. Bringing 20 Reivers on top of a lot of Intercessors is something opponents are not well equipped to deal with.

 

Would be thinking of a list along these lines for instance (using my very dogmatic army construction build)

 

Primaris Captain

Primaris Lieutenant

 

30 Stalker Intercessors

 

20 Autobolt Intercessors

 

2 Plasma / Gatling Redemptors

 

20 CQC Reivers with chutes

 

—

 

Deploy the 30 long range Intercessors in the middle of the board with the 2 Dreadnoughts and the HQs.

 

Deploy 1 squad of 10 Autobolt on each side, with the Reivers in reserve.

 

Strike from the Shadows or See but remain unseen the 2 Autobolt squads as far as sensible in a way to force the enemy to concentrate force on one.

 

Opponent is likely to focus the main firepower on the Dreads.

 

Turn 2 drop the 20 Reivers in support of the less damaged one and Raven’s Blade a target.

 

—

 

I’m biased with Troops these days because I spent most of the last year playing with the Ultramarines doctrine and using lots of infantry.

 

There is beauty in volume of chaff and some surprises in terms of effectiveness. It’s not fitting everyone’s fantasy of how marines should run though.

[Kingnoname1]

My point is even limited to a question of duability reivers suck in comparison to what else is in the army. The command point drain is an issue but any game state where you can have 20 reivers drop in Id happily pay 2cp for them to turn into 12 bladeguard.

 

Bladeguard can deny obsec by actually being able to do damage. And Im not saying Reivers are useless, only useless in comparison to whatelse we have in our army.

 

 

I also dont agree with the weight of attacks point, what hordes are you fighting? Orks? +1 to wound is big as well as more able to take the swing back. Necrons? Same as well as ignoring necron warriors armour and leaving immortals with a 6+. Even tyranids the two damage helps with the 5+++ their devilgaunts run.

 

Id recommend looking at other compedititive lists and seriously ask the question if your redemptor's are going to survive half a shooting phase. They arent. When they're gone so is all your anti-tank and they could ignore the rest of your army if they wanted.

 

You talk about effectiveness but the reason why people play msu is for effectiveness. Maximising special weapons minimising waste. Raven Guard are already a weak chapter mechanically which means if you want to compete you really have utilise our few good rules well; free move vanguard vets, MoA bike chaplin bringing along bladeguard, swift and deadly bike captains racing up the board to provide support. Your army seems to get one strat for being Raven Guard and at that point I have to ask why bother playing Raven Guard if you arent going to actually play Raven Guard.