Company structure guidance for a Raven Guard Beginner

[Rusted Boltgun]

Hello Raveneers (or whatever a group of Raven Guard afficionados is called).

 

I've just started to look at attaching myself to a chapter and painting up some squads in line with a codex list. Just for fun, I'm unlikely to ever get near a table.

 

Raven Guard appealed based on their combat style fluff, colours and iconography and I took a look at what I think is the most recent Codex.

 

I was looking at the 2nd company (Shadowborne) and liked the 'extensive use of Infiltrators and Reivers' for some stealthy action but the company make-up is the same as the other 2 to 5, limiting the number of Close Support Squads to two.

 

This means up to two squads of Reivers at the expense of any other type of CSS (or my recently purchased Strikeforce uses up the two CSS element before I get near any Reivers).

 

Secondary question, if fielding a company from 1 to 5, how do you incorporate Scouts? Do you just position as 'I have seconded a squad from the 10th?'

 

Am I reading this right? Please be gentle, I really am VERY new to all this and age has dimmed my cognitive ability.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Rusted Boltgun

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Hello Raveneers (or whatever a group of Raven Guard afficionados is called).

 

I've just started to look at attaching myself to a chapter and painting up some squads in line with a codex list. Just for fun, I'm unlikely to ever get near a table.

 

Raven Guard appealed based on their combat style fluff, colours and iconography and I took a look at what I think is the most recent Codex.

 

I was looking at the 2nd company (Shadowborne) and liked the 'extensive use of Infiltrators and Reivers' for some stealthy action but the company make-up is the same as the other 2 to 5, limiting the number of Close Support Squads to two.

 

This means up to two squads of Reivers at the expense of any other type of CSS (or my recently purchased Strikeforce uses up the two CSS element before I get near any Reivers).

 

Secondary question, if fielding a company from 1 to 5, how do you incorporate Scouts? Do you just position as 'I have seconded a squad from the 10th?'

 

Am I reading this right? Please be gentle, I really am VERY new to all this and age has dimmed my cognitive ability.

The final paragraph on page 10 of the codex supplement seems to suggest that scouts do not get incorporated into the battle companies or reserve companies until they have received the black carapace ie. are no longer scouts.  

[Rusted Boltgun]

 

 

 

The final paragraph on page 10 of the codex supplement seems to suggest that scouts do not get incorporated into the battle companies or reserve companies until they have received the black carapace ie. are no longer scouts.

Thank you for highlighting that. So I guess to use Scouts as part of a force, they are 'seconded' or reinforce another company.

[GreyCrow]

Hey Rusted ! Welcome to the Ravenspire !

 

First of all, keep in mind that the lore hasn’t been designed to give a be all end all functioning structure to the Codex Chapters.

 

There is a lot of rule of cool and room for head cannon. First of all, the level at which the Astartes fight is a bit muddy and seems very dependent on the different chapters and authors.

 

Tabletop wise, if you want an “authentic” company, you will limit your play style quite a lot.

That doesn’t mean you can’t be effective, but playing the army will be less about creating a working system, but executing an existing system as best as you can.

 

—

 

How “might” a Primaris company work in 40k ? Keep in mind I’m not a military expert, all these are hypotheses !

 

According to the Codex, Guilliman made sure that Codex compliant Chapters were able to fight in all manners of warfare. That means that each Chapter must be able (aka has the means) to deploy all needed assets to conduct the war comfortably.

 

In the Codex, Companies 2 to 5 are Battle companies while 6-9 are Reserve companies. 1 are veterans, 10 are Scout forces.

 

In the lore, it is often mentioned that while conducting a campaign, elements from Reserve companies bolster the battle companies.

 

Based on this, I expect the battle companies to not be lone fighting forces and rely a lot more on Chapter Assets and cross company resources than one thought.

 

I’m sure there are some 40k Forgeworld books that would support that too.

 

—

 

Keep in mind that in warfare, unit levels are not only a coherent measurement of fighting force but also a coherent logistical unity. Not everybody fight at once, logistics (being able to bring the right tool for the right job at the right time) would indicate that units that are less immediately useful do not participate in the fight, but remain withdrawn able to be called on when needed.

 

—

 

If we assume that a company operates independently without support of the Chapter (so relies exclusively on the 6 battle line squads, 2 close support, 2 fire support squads and 2 Dreadnoughts), then the standard operating procedure could be as follows :

 

- Unlikely to deploy all at once ! Why would you need Close Support when Fire Support is preffered ?

 

- Likely to deploy as a “Fire and Maneuver” standard tactic : a static force providing fire support/a mobile force moving for flanking positions and assault under cover of the fire teams.

 

Fire and Maneuver is further evidenced by Bolter discipline doubling the shots at full range for stationary Marines.

 

- Likely to operate standardly with 3 Battle Line Squads + 1-2 Dreadnoughts as the core of any engagement.

Why Dreadnoughts as core ? Combined Arms seems to be the name of the game in 40k, an infantry only force seems to be without tactical responses when faced with exclusively anti infantry guns.

 

- Likely to dedicate this 3+2 configuration in either Fire or Maneuver (including the Dreadnoughts).

 

- Likely to use any available supporting element to fill the other role, and bring a sizable contingent to fill that role.

Example : Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles in a “fire role”

Would likely bring 2 full Inceptors Squad as a maneuver role.

 

- Likely to bring a minor contingent of the other type of support units to supplement the main line. That squad would provide a small “in between” role to bridge the fire and maneuver roles.

 

Example, at 1985 points :

 

Primaris Captain

Primaris Lieutenant

 

30 Stalker Intercessors

2 Plasma Redemptors

 

12 Plasma Inceptors

 

3 Bolter Aggressors

 

—

 

This is by no means a 100% winning list and CERTAINLY don’t use it as a template to build your company.

 

This is a bit of an extreme example where you have a very static gunline with good damage projection at range, at the expense of board control early game.

 

The goal with that army is to castle up early on and bait the opponent to spread his forces to use his mobility advantage on capturing objectives/doing secondaries.

 

Once he feels confident, then dropping the 12 Inceptors on one side of the board in Turn 2-3 and then slowly bringing them forward.

 

In the case of an aggressive army, deploying the Inceptors on the backfield and letting the enemy come will make the pounce easier.

[GreyCrow]

Just wanted to add that everything written above is purely speculative and should be in no circumstances taken as a 'standard operating procedure' for companies!

[Rusted Boltgun]

Hey Rusted ! Welcome to the Ravenspire !.

Thank you GreyCrow for the welcome and the detailed reply. The worked example has helped to clarify things for me.

I'm off to YT to watch some battle reports and see some troops types in action and I'll have a look through here for some write ups too.

I've got my box set to paint up so have plenty to get on with and I can develop things from there.

So much to learn!

[GreyCrow]

No worries Rusted!

 

Ultimately, take my perspective as a basis for reflexion. I don't pretend to be the be all end all of tactics. There's no set blueprint from GW about 'This is how to design and manage your Space Marine army', I don't think even they thought about it this way either. Rather, I'm pretty sure they design cool units/models that are then priced in points and cash to maximize revenue :D

 

The biggest issue we face is the deployment standard operating practices for Chapters. Is a company a self sufficient unit ? Is it part of a larger Chapter tactical logistics ? How do Marines actually fight ?

I don't think this has ever been explicitely mentionned. Perhaps in some Forgeworld books like Badab (would need to check).

 

Rule system wise, it seems that the tactical philosophy of 40k is very inspired by World War 1 tactics from the game rules, but with some modern unit designs. World War 1 showed a lot of line tactics, fire superiority through long range fire, and bayonet charges for decisive action. CQC in WW1 was very viable due to the trenches and the low rate of fire of man portable weapons at the time : When you are in a trench, you can freely stab other people as you are in cover from most other directions.

 

You can see this in all the main arts, where it's 2 glorious lines stretching for miles, fighting against each other.

 

__

 

Another issue comes : Battle scale. There is such a thing as fire density. A stealthy tactic will work better avoiding large concentration of enemy force and will not engage the combat until they find a sufficiently weak point to punch through, then fade away.

 

At Raven Guard levels, that would mean that the Raven Guard would mostly fight 500 points games, with highly mobile units. On a 4x6'' board, 500 points favour highly mobile units rather than pure firepower, because the fire support elements can cover much less arcs of fire and there are more terrain pieces than units.

 

A force with 1 Squad of Intercessors, an HQ and 3 Plasma Inceptors will have a massive advantage on a 4x6'' at 500 points. Same board at 2,000 points, since you can't avoid the firepower so much, you need the ability to place effective shots down range + tank the incoming fire.

 

At 2k games, you have to think down the opposition before going in with mobile forces. So effective long range fire support is absolutely critical.

 

__

 

The lists I mentionned above were mostly to illustrate the fire and maneuver concept, mostly against infantry lists.

 

A more standard list would be the following :

 

Primaris Captain

Primaris Lieutenant

 

30 Intercessors (Power Fist on the Sergeant)

1 Plasma Redemptor

 

20 Heavy Hellblasters

 

6 Plasma Inceptors

 

1 Plasma/Gatling Redemptor

 

All of this coming at just 1995 points.

 

This is what I usually play with Ultramarines Chapter Tactics, for example. Since Ultramarines have smaller deployment options than Raven Guard, you gotta build in fire superiority very early on, but their Chapter Tactics allow for better mid game mobility. The typical UM strategy is tank turn 1, while concentrating fire in one area of the map (gotta punch through the enemy system), then move to take advantage of what you created.

 

20 Heavy Hellblasters are nasty good at doing that. Without Seal of Oath (reroll all to hit and to wound against 1 enemy unit), just using the Captain and Lieutenant rerolls, they throw about 18 wounds on a 4++ Imperial Knight Turn 1, which is quickly dispatched by the Bolt Rifle shots from the Intercessors and the Dreadnought firepower.

 

As either them or the Dread usually takes fire priority, the Inceptors drop in with to reinforce lost Plasma guns, and open different fields of fire to go hunt units that are hiding behind Line of Sight.

 

__

 

As much fun as watching Marines punch people to Oblivion, you have to win the fire superiority in 40k. It's important to isolate enemy fire, punish them from being out of line of sight, so you can maneuver closer range elements more effectively later on.

T'au are usually perceived as OP because of the fact that their fluff pushes the players to secure fire superiority, due to their very effective ranged gameplay. Old Aeldari battle focus allowed them to have very good fire superiority : Dark Reapers moving out of cover, shooting heavy weapons and full BS, then going back into cover.

 

Besides pure actual registered damaged, you need to punish the enemy from fighting in its preferred fighting situation, do deny his advantage while building yours.

 

__

 

1000 points is where I believe there are more room for personal creativity of builds : The density of units on the board and cover is such that there doesn't seem to be a type of units that is significantly more effective.

Shooting still has a slight advantage, but 9th LOS rules and recommended terrain density allow for different army styles to play.

 

For me, 1000 points seem to be the sweet spot that favours a decent chunk of Troops and very flavourful support units, without becoming completely gamey.

 

__

 

To close the discussion : Keep in mind that Games Workshop is first and foremost a models company before being a games company. Their DNA is in the hobby, and the game is mostly made to provide a good casual time for people to watch their dudes fight each other. (Heavy reliance on RNG in gaming indicates a more casual nature for game types. Family board games are purposefully designed to rely on dice to avoid powergaming in families).

[Rusted Boltgun]

Thanks again GreyCrow.

There was a lot to digest there. My WW1 tactics knowledge is limited to Charley's War but I get where you're coming from. I've started watching games to try and get a feel for this. To begin with, I will get models I want to paint and try to keep within the Codex. Who knows, maybe one day they might make it to a table top!

[duz_]

Sounds like a perfect start Rusty! :tu:

And then once you have said models you can start your own WIP thread so we can follow along :yes:

[Rusted Boltgun]

Will do @duz_

I've been going through a few few WIP logs for hints and tips. They can be quite intimidating for a newbie / an oldie but I have to start somewhere! I'm slowly prepping some intercessors ready for priming (probably when the weather improves so I can spray in my garage) and also have a few second hand models stripped for practice purposes.

[Claws and Effect]

I've been lost in the warp for a while, but I have some input here.

 

It is known that the Raven Guard's Battle Companies are more autonomous than the Battle Companies of other Chapters, and they have a very decentralized command structure. In fact, up until the Damocles campaign book in late 7th edition many Raven Guard players questioned whether there was even an actual Chapter Master because of that.

 

In addition, the Raven Guard 1st and 10th Companies almost never fight as a whole, preferring instead to reinforce the Battle Companies by seconding a squad or two (usually Vanguard Veterans for the 1st, and Scouts or Reivers for the 10th).

 

The Raven Guard do have and use heavy support units, but unlike most other Chapters they tend to use them more as a misdirection while their stealthier units complete their actual objective. So the heavy support units will attack one wall to draw the enemy in that direction while the rest of the forces infiltrate the suddenly more sparsely guarded flank.

 

In a weird turn of events, most Chapters utilize units on the tabletop better that their lore would suggest they would rarely ever use. The Raven Guard are no different. They utilize Centurion battlesuits on the table better than anyone else, but the lore would lead you to question whether they actually possess any at all, because a big, clunky, heavily armored exoskeleton is counterintuitive to how they fight.

[Rusted Boltgun]

Thank you for the input, it is much appreciated. Especially the last paragraph! I'll be looking into those battlesuits...

[Jaipii]

I hope they don't screw up the synergy with Raven Guard tactics and Centurions when they update our Codex supplement one day! I've just started building the first squad of Assault Centurions for my Raven Guard. :D

This is how I imagine a 5th Company of the Raven Guard look like when they strike at the enemy!

A squad of Centurions can be deployed airborne via a Stormraven Gunship when a bigger Oomph! (guns and/or Siege Drills) is required to break the enemy ranks. I would imagine these walking weapon platforms to be used instead of bigger armour units for the "relative" mobility. You can't always just put a knife in someone's back as nice as it is :yes:

Some Assault Centurions in the spoilers ;)

[Rusted Boltgun]

Wow. How have I missed those? <reaches for codex>