New Article - On the Legions, Chapters, Successors, and Terminology

[Brother Tyler]

An interesting debate that occurs every now and then here at the B&C (and elsewhere) is about successors, specifically whether or not successor Chapters can have their own successors. This is especially prone to cropping up in the context of the Black Templars Chapter. The mods had a spirited, but reasonable, discussion on that subject back in October, prompting me to conduct some research in order to support and inform my arguments. That discussion changed my thinking a bit, and that led to a couple of very minor cosmetic changes here (that I will discuss at the end of this).

 

Ignoring whether or not specific Chapters (can) have Successors…

 

The primary point of contention has been whether or not a Chapter from a later founding can have “Successors.” The “debate” will commonly appear as the following progression (paraphrased and summarized):

 

Member A: Can Chapter X [a later founding Chapter] have Successors?

Member B: Sure.

Member C: But they wouldn’t be “Successors” of Chapter X, they’d actually be Successors of Legion Z.

 

For clarity, when I use “later founding Chapter” below, I am referring to a Chapter of the 3rd Founding or later. Similarly, the “First Founding” Chapters are those Chapters of the 2nd Founding that retained the name of their parent Legion.

 

To illustrate using an example from official lore, the Astral Claws Chapter, a later founding Chapter whose lineage isn’t definitively known, is known to have at least one Chapter, the Tiger Claws Chapter, descended from it. One source indicates that three Chapters were actually created from the gene-seed of the Astral Claws, but doesn’t name them. The graphic below depicts the premise (which is canon, derived from Imperial Armour Volume Nine – The Badab War – Part One, and which has been neither retconned nor contradicted in other canon).

 

 

We know that at least one Chapter, the Tiger Claws Chapter, was descended from the Astral Claws Chapter, which is thought to have been created in the 10th Founding. There are thought to be two others, and since the source of that theory is limited to a specific date, there may have been additional descendant Chapters created after that time. Regardless, the Chapter or Chapters created from the gene-seed of the Astral Claws Chapter are referred to as “descendants” rather than the more common “successors” that we see in other sources.

 

I’ve mentioned the Grey Knights and Deathwatch Chapters, as well as the Legion of the Damned, because of their exceptional natures. The Grey Knights Chapter is not known to be descended from any of the Legions (despite its founding members being drawn from some of the Legions) and is thought to incorporate the gene-seed of the Emperor. The Deathwatch Chapter is composed of members drawn from all (or most) Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes and doesn’t have homogenous gene-seed. The Legion of the Damned might be the Fire Hawks, who might be descended from the Ultramarines Legion, but they might be something else entirely – they aren’t definitively known to descend from any one specific Legion. We might even point to some other exceptions such as the unusual creation of the Sons of Medusa (former adherents of the Moirae Schism drawn from various Iron Hands Legion Successors). All of these exceptions are tangents, though, and not relevant to the larger discussion.

 

In addition, there are some Chapters that are speculated to have been created from the gene-seed of traitor Legions. Regardless, of the veracity of this speculation, the terminology discussed below appears to be applicable. Even if it weren’t, the exceptional nature of these Chapters, too, is a tangent and not relevant to the larger discussion.

 

Some might be of the opinion that the Astral Claws Chapter is not a good example because we don’t definitely know the Legion from which they are descended. In this, the Executioners Chapter, covered in Imperial Armour Volume Ten – The Badab War – Part Two, is another example:

 

 

The only real “problem” with the Executioners Chapter is that, as a 3rd Founding Chapter, we don’t know the exact source of their gene-seed beyond the fact that it came from the lineage of the VIIth [Imperial Fists] Legion. This leads us to one of three possibilities. First, the Executioners Chapter may have been created directly from Imperial Fists Legion gene-seed stores. Second, the Executioners Chapter may have been created from the gene-seed of the Imperial Fists Chapter. The assumption here is that, as the inheritors of the name and livery of the Legion, lineage references default to the “First Founding” Chapter when they are not qualified by the specification of some other Chapter as predecessor (this will be covered later). Third, the gene-seed used to create the Executioners Chapter came from one of the (other) 2nd Founding Successors of the Imperial Fists Legion (we know of the Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Excoriators, Fists Exemplar, and Soul Drinkers Chapters), but since the specific Chapter isn’t definitively known, only the name of the Legion is given.

 

Regardless, the 3rd Founding Executioners Chapter is known to have sired at least two descendant Chapters, the Iron Champions and Crimson Axes Chapters, with the Skull Bearers Chapter also claiming descent. The interesting addition here, though, is the “antecedent” terminology. Depending on how you interpret it, “antecedent” could be synonymous and interchangeable with “predecessor.” In the Badab War books, however, “antecedent” is only used in the Executioners Chapter entry; and it is used in defining the lineage of one later founding Chapter from another later founding Chapter (instead of directly from a Legion/1st Founding Chapter or a 2nd Founding Chapter).

 

For some, the uncertainty of the Executioners Chapter’s descent (i.e., we don’t know if it was created from a specific 2nd Founding Successor of the Imperial Fists Legion, or which that might be), renders them a less certain example. To that end, the Marines Errant might suffice as a good example.

 

 

As we see from the above, the Marines Errant Chapter, dating to the 23rd Founding, was created from the gene-seed of the Eagle Warriors Chapter, one of the Primogenitors (2nd Founding Chapters created from the Ultramarines Legion). In this, the data shows that “gene-seed” refers to the Legion from whose gene-seed the Chapter is derived, whereas “predecessor” refers to the specific Chapter, also derived from that Legion, from whose the Chapter’s gene-seed was taken. The only weakness with the Marines Errant Chapter is that we are told (definitively) that they had no descendants at the time of the Badab War.

 

The Salamanders Chapter is the only “First Founding” Chapter to have participated in the Badab War, and this is interesting because they are unique in that the Salamanders Legion is the only loyalist Legion that is not known to have divided into multiple Chapters in the 2nd Founding.

 

 

In common thinking, the Salamanders Chapter was essentially the Salamanders Legion, simply re-named to the “Chapter” nomenclature and adapting to the dictates of Roboute Guilliman’s Codex Astartes (though not entirely following that model). In this, their “gene-seed (predecessor)” entry in the Badab War books is interesting because it lists “none” instead of “Salamanders.” From this we might draw the conclusion that the “gene-seed (predecessor)” entry is specifically about the Chapter from which a Chapter is descended, with the Legion relationship resulting from that relationship. Whether this is specific to the Salamanders Chapter by virtue of the Salamanders Legion not dividing into Chapters, or it is common to the “First Founding” Chapters is open to speculation.

 

Equally of interest is that this Chapter, too, uses the “known descendants” data field. The “none” entry in the “gene-seed (predecessor)” field makes it clear that there are differences in how terminology applies to Chapter lineage (even though we don’t know for certain how those differences are applied, only their results), so the use of “descendants” makes it clear that the term is (somewhat) interchangeable with the more familiar “successors” term. This may be total interchangeability, or it may be qualified interchangeability (in the way that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares).

 

From all of this, we might extrapolate the following:

 

 

From an analysis of these Chapters and the terminology used in the Badab War books we might draw some conclusions. These are by no means definitive and are certainly open to debate. From these conclusions, though, we might propose terminology that might be acceptable to most hobbyists:

 

• The term “predecessor” refers to the specific Chapter from which a later founding Chapter is derived. In this, “antecedent” is fully synonymous with “predecessor” and can be used interchangeably. This will be a subset of Chapter’s actual lineage, which will point to a Legion.
• When describing lineage, “gene-seed” describes the Legion from which a later founding Chapter is derived. When no specific Chapter is listed as a predecessor, we can assume that the Chapter was created either from the “First Founding” Chapter of that Legion, directly from isolated Legion gene-seed stores, or the specific predecessor is unknown.
• The term “progenitor,” though not defined/used in the Badab War entries, refers to the Legion from which a Chapter is descended. In this, it is used interchangeably with “gene-seed” (as defined above).
• The term “descendant” refers to a gene-seed relationship between a younger Chapter (the descendant) and an older Chapter (the predecessor). Whether or not this is limited to direct relationships (e.g., the Marines Errant Chapter being descended from the Eagle Warriors Chapter) or extended relationships (e.g., the Iron Champions Chapter being descended from the Imperial Fists via the Executioners Chapter) is open to speculation.
• The term “successor” is the converse of “progenitor” and refers to a Chapter’s Legion lineage. Although the “First Founding” Chapters are technically “successors” of their parent Legions, they are not commonly referred to as such because they retained the Legion names. All descendants are successors (of the Legion), but “descendant” describes the relationship up to the Chapter descended from the Legion whereas “successor” describes the relationship through to the Legion (e.g., it is used interchangeably with “gene-seed” and defines the progenitor/successor relationship).

 

Admittedly, all of this is my own interpretation based largely on extrapolation from the Badab War books, with the progenitor and successor terminology that is used elsewhere added to the mix. So this isn’t a decree from on high and is certainly open to debate.

 

To illustrate the terms above, and to take it back to the (problematic) Black Templars discussions…

 

• The Black Templars Chapter is a Successor of the Imperial Fists Legion.
• If any Chapter were to be created from the gene-seed of the Black Templars Chapter, it would be a descendant of the Black Templars Chapter and a Successor of the Imperial Fists Legion.
• That Chapter would consider the Black Templars Chapter to be its predecessor/antecedent and the Imperial Fists Legion as its progenitor.
• If any Chapter were to be created from a descendant of the Black Templars Chapter, it, too, would be a descendant of the Black Templars Chapter and a Successor of the Imperial Fists Legion.
• That Chapter would consider the Black Templars Chapter descendant as its predecessor/antecedent and the Imperial Fists Legion as its progenitor; and it would trace its lineage through the Black Templars Chapter (though the terminology for those relationship terms have not been defined, except possibly by the “branch” terminology that has solely been used in this post by me).

 

Note that I’m not saying that there are descendants of the Black Templars Chapter – I’m only describing the terminology for such if they were to exist.

 

Based on the above, I’ve made a few changes to the site:

 

• The description for the Black Templars sub-forum has replaced the “Successors” terminology with “Descendants” (i.e., “Suffer not the Unclean: The Black Templars and their Descendants”).
• The name of the Black Templars gallery sub-category has replaced the “Successors” terminology with “Descendants” (i.e., “Black Templars & Descendants”).

 

Do these suggestions work? Are there alternative suggestions that are consistent with the official lore (especially sources I didn’t specifically cite here)?

[No Foes Remain]

I cannot argue with such a well researched and thought out post that ticks all the right places, and the fact that you mentioned my favourite chapter first helps too.

 

 

Seriously, it was really interesting to read and I've forwarded it on to a few mates to have a look at as well.

[WARMASTER_]

This a great argument well written and well researched Tyler!

 

My view point has a been similar to yours since reading the Badab war books, to my mind the Iron champions are indeed true “descends” of the Executioners as their gene seed was taken directly from the Executioners stores either from Mars or the chapters own stores in the Darkenvault, as such they’ll process the genetic deviations specific to the Executioner chapter that have developed throughout the millennia but both chapters remain in the truest sense “sons of Dorn”

[Brother Kraskor]

 

To illustrate the terms above, and to take it back to the (problematic) Black Templars discussions…

• The Black Templars Chapter is a Successor of the Imperial Fists Legion.
• If any Chapter were to be created from the gene-seed of the Black Templars Chapter, it would be a descendant of the Black Templars Chapter and a Successor of the Imperial Fists Legion.
• That Chapter would consider the Black Templars Chapter to be its predecessor/antecedent and the Imperial Fists Legion as its progenitor.
• If any Chapter were to be created from a descendant of the Black Templars Chapter, it, too, would be a descendant of the Black Templars Chapter and a Successor of the Imperial Fists Legion.
• That Chapter would consider the Black Templars Chapter descendant as its predecessor/antecedent and the Imperial Fists Legion as its progenitor; and it would trace its lineage through the Black Templars Chapter (though the terminology for those relationship terms have not been defined, except possibly by the “branch” terminology that has solely been used in this post by me).

Note that I’m not saying that there are descendants of the Black Templars Chapter – I’m only describing the terminology for such if they were to exist.

 

Yes I think this sums it up neatly! (Though of course, as you point out, unlikely for BT themselves, they're like scientologists once you're in they've got dirt on you, you ain't leaving!  )

 

I can't help but feel the natural meanings of antecedent and predecessor aren't exactly analogous. To me antecedent is more immediate, whereas predecessor describes a step along the way but neither the first nor the last.

 

To use a simple family analogy, someone's father is their antecedent, their great grandfather one of their predecessors, and their great-great-great (etc.) grandfather their progenitor. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Very interesting and a great read to boot — thanks !

[Sword Brother Adelard]

It's not as commonly used in that context, but ascendant is another antonym of descendant. I'd agree with Kraskor that your antecedent makes more sense as an immediate ancestor by relationship, with your ascendants above them.

[Felix Antipodes]

Great post.  Pretty much how I label Chapter lineage in my own headcanon and I will use this terminology in future as I like the way it flows.

[CCE1981]

Interesting. When I wrote up my Chapter’s datacard. I used a slightly different terminology. But still clear as to my intent.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I split the posts discussing the Executioners founding to a dedicated discussion in the Imperial Fists sub-forum.

[Brother Tyler]

[Note that this topic has been re-posted in our Articles section. This discussion topic remains the location for providing feedback, counterarguments, etc. so that the article can be updated as necessary.]

 

An interesting debate that occurs every now and then here at the B&C (and elsewhere) is about successors, specifically whether or not successor Chapters can have their own successors. This is especially prone to cropping up in the context of the Black Templars Chapter. Ignoring whether or not specific Chapters (can) have Successors, the primary point of contention has been whether or not a Chapter from a later founding can have “Successors.”

 

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[roryokane]

On 7/23/2024 at 5:50 PM, Brother Tyler said:

[Note that this topic has been re-posted in our Articles section. This discussion topic remains the location for providing feedback, counterarguments, etc. so that the article can be updated as necessary.]

 

An interesting debate that occurs every now and then here at the B&C (and elsewhere) is about successors, specifically whether or not successor Chapters can have their own successors. This is especially prone to cropping up in the context of the Black Templars Chapter. Ignoring whether or not specific Chapters (can) have Successors, the primary point of contention has been whether or not a Chapter from a later founding can have “Successors.”

 

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View full article

 

I hadn;t seen this before, so this is helpful. I always assumed it basically worked as it is laid out, but it's nice to see it clearly explained with consistent graphics and examples, with citations to boot! :D

[Felix Antipodes]

While re-reading this article, it struck me that the Primaris Chapters of the Ultima Founding may need a slightly different label.  Since they were created by Cawl directly from the gene-seed of the Primarchs, rather than the gene-seed banks of the Mechanicus, they do not come under the “Legion” listing.

As an example, the Black Vipers would not list the Salamanders Legion as their successor, but would name Vulkan instead.

In this case are the new Primaris Soul Drinkers Chapter a successor of the Imperial Fists Legion or just “Son of Dorn”?

Idle minds always come up with complications …