Space Marine Weapon Changes

[Captain Idaho]

This topic is focused on what new weapon rules and stats can be amended in Codex Space Marines to bring the army into line with other Codex books fairly and provide internal balance.

 

What this topic is not designed to cover is the (perceived) issue of bloat, Tau and Eldar weapon superiority or rules/Codex creep.

 

Indeed, on the topic of rules creep, we should be mindful of what works to bring units into line with other factions and internal balance rather than want Damage 2 bolters, Lascannons doing 5D6 damage and auto-wounding flamers. 

 

Likewise, whilst some may want consolidation of weapon profiles to reduce what they perceive as "rules bloat", that's a topic for another day and to be avoided where possible. ;)

 

****

 

Starting off, some of the big guns need amendment, namely Lascannons. In comparison to melta weapons, there just isn't the same incentive to take these weapons. I don't think they need anything fundamental, but I think a simple D6+1 damage would suffice.

 

Alternatively, I'd say granting them +1 to wound against monsters and vehicles would provide an interesting alternative to how they're used. The direct hit from these weapons is easier on larger targets therefore fluff justification is easier.

 

The balance is they are still swingy with D6 damage but wound consistently easier against heavier targets. I like that change more.

 

• Laser Destroyers... just seem a little meh. Maybe D6 damage plus 2 would be balanced, or 2D3+2 for consistency. I'm not a fan of any more power than that as look at what it does to one shot a 10 wound vehicle with 1 shot to the balance of the game, but such large laser destroying weapons should be immensely powerful and would help the Gladiator find its role again.

 

• a Vindicator Demolisher cannon is huge and should act as such! I'd even reduce it's range to 18" to balance this, but I'd make it damage 3D3 AND causes D3 Mortal Wounds on targets within 3" of the target unit on a 4+. Seems uber powerful but then I'd like it to have that kick and it is a niche that Marines can actually use - forcing opponents to spread out more so the outnumbered Marines can take them on piecemeal. Distrupt enemy formations.

 

Hmm I might adjust that to an either or weapon. Either it fires at a target with the 3D3 damage, D6 shots attack, or it chooses a point of the board and every non-fly keyword unit within 6" of that point suffers D3 mortal wounds on a 4+. That seems more balanced than my first idea but is definitely something that could be useful if an opponent clumps around something. What I don't like about it is the way it becomes a bit of a sniper weapon instead of massed damage weapon. 

 

Any other suggestions here, or just stick to 3D3 damage and maybe a simple D6 shots, minimum of 3 is enough for consistency and represent the stockwave of the attack?

 

• The Hunter's Skyspear missile system needs adjustment. Sure it's fine against flyers but this is jarring to me due to the sheer size of the payload on the model, its origin in Epic and the fact that the missle isn't weaker if it hits a land target over air as that's not how things like that work!

 

S9 is great, but Damage D6 is very swingy and not worthwhile if you're not fighting flyers. Changing the damage to say D6 but for each point of damage inflicted you cause a mortal wound on a 4+ would represent it penetrating the target before exploding.

 

Alternatively, why go complicated when you could just make it damage D6+3 against all targets? Keep the +2 to hit against Flyers.

 

****

 

Any other thoughts on weapons I've not mentioned or comments on those I have? Interested to hear what people might thing.

[TheNewman]

Let me preface this by pointing out that the move to from d6 to 3+d3 was a very good idea, but should have been consistent over the entire system and should have gone along with (mostly) blanket damage reduction for all Vehicles and Monsters. D3+Dd3 averages 5 damage and that bumped lethality without compensating for it. That also would have done a better job of differentiating Anti-tank weapons from flat D2 and D3 anti-elite weapons.

 

I actually think Lascannons make more sense as a D3+Dd3 weapon than anything else. I also kind of think the Missile Launcher should just be a flat D3.

 

Speaking of swingy weapons, the Centurion Missile Launcher at d3 shot Dd3 damage is just odd. 1-9 damage per shot. I like it better at a flat two-shot D3, and the Dreadnought Missile Launcher feels like it should be in that ballpark considering you're giving up melee to take it.

 

Pure balance perspective the Seismic Hammer is just flat inferior to the Dreadnought Chainfist on every target. Not sure what the right fix is there.

 

Vehicle mounted Heavy Plasma Cannons are ... wait, when did those switch to D2/D3? Huh.

 

The Hellblaster guns seem to have been balanced as though the Devs thought Bolter Discipline was going to work on all Rapid Fire weapons.

 

Not a weapon, but the Assault Centurion chassis costs half as much as the Devastator Centurion chassis. I'm not sure how they should be pointed, but I know that what they have now is wrong.

 

That's all I have at the moment.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I feel like the normal bolter should be AP -1 like the bolter that intercessors get. It's not as important in normal SM, because we get combat doctrines which patch it a little bit, but playing CSM and Death Guard, I think it's a bit lacking compared to the standard weapons that other armies are now getting.

 

That may be too much though, as bumping storm bolters and all up to AP -1 by consequence may not work as intended. But they just don't quite work the way I want against target that they would've ignored the armor of back in 7E. Although looking back, I guess they were AP 5 in 7E, so :/

Edited January 9, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Orange Knight]

I think one unit that has the potential to be great, but has been a bit underwhelming, is the Hellblaster squad.

 

The unit has unique plasma weapons, and I would adjust each variant to make it more compelling.

 

For the assault variant, I would have the profile be:

 

Assault 3, Str 6, AP-4, Damage 1

Overcharged it's Str 7, Damage 2, overheats on a 1

 

For the regular variant:

 

Rapid Fire 1, Str 7, AP-4, Damage 2

Overcharged it's Str 8, Damage 3, overheats on a 1

 

For the Heavy Variant:

 

Heavy 1, Str 8, AP-4, Damage 3

Overcharged it's Str 9, Damage 4, overheats on a 1

[Dracos]

Balance in my mind means bringing items that aren't considered "competitive" up to par with thise generally considered so. With that in mind.

 

 

Hellblasters just need some points shaved off. 

 

Aggressors need a 5++

 

Gladiators should get the -1 damage treatment.

 

Outriders either need a point break or Sgt upgrades ... same for Heavy Intercessors.

 

Impulsor needs to be able to carry 10 two wound or 6 three wound models without costing an arm and leg.

 

Add +1 Toughness to Astartes Aircraft.

[Djangomatic82]

Lascannons

-I'm not too sure a straight damage boost similar to admech cognis weapons should be the only design space looked at if Astartes Lascannon's were going to be buffed. I feel that just making them D3+3 damage and keeping them Heavy 1 would not make them enticing enough or create a niche for them versus Multi-Meltas. 

-Giving them some oomph against units with Invulnerables might be the right choice, maybe not an outright ignore invulnerables, but say, "ignore invulnerable saves of 6++ and 5++"" might be good.

-5++ seems to be the generic value GW gives anything they want to be somewhat more survivable, so bypassing those,  but still letting models with the premium 4++ or better keep theirs seems like a good direction to head in.

 

Flamers

-I dont think they're terrible, but iirc, historically flamethrowers were used to clear entrenched or inaccessible areas, like bunkers or tunnels. Going along with that, the +1Sv from Light Cover is kinda unfortunate for Flamers Ap-0. Letting them ignore any benefits of cover might be an interesting option.

 

Skyspear Missiles/Stalker icarus guns

-Honestly, i think the only thing wrong with these, especially the 115 point Stalker, is the AIRCRAFT rider on their weapons. If GW rolled the design back to the 8e version of applying to FLY units instead, then i think both of these could have a niche with the much broader target pool.

 

Assault Cannon

-Poor assault cannons, Heavy 6, S6, Ap-1 Damage 1 is kinda meh on almost all models that can take them. If more of those platforms had CORE, maybe they'd be okay, but it just seems like right now, they usually have better options for the points, usually.

 

Hellblasters

-I think the problem is two fold and related to each other. They cost too dang much. 33ppm is really not enticing, unless your chapter has some stratagem or tactic that makes them better. But, I think that that price is 98% justified because GW pushed the design spec of all three plasma incinerators too far, in order to make the shiny new primaris more enticing to us buyers, just like Agressors being able to double shoot in 8e and Eliminators doing the same in 9e.

-Hellblasters getting Base Ap-4,then overcharging  for BOTH a Strength AND Damage increase versus regular plasma's Ap-3 is too much not too be 33ppm.

-If Plasma across the board got knocked down to simply the one or the other of Strength/Damage, I think Hellblasters could be dropped to 25ppm and then they'd be pretty interesting to take versus medium to heavy infantry, as well as opening up a bit more design space between itself and Grav weapons.

 

Missile Launchers/Cyclone Missile Launchers/Typhoon Missile Launchers

-Meh, I like them conceptually for their versatility, but across the board, they are too expensive for what their stats are. The vehicle mounted versions also suffer from the +50% vehicle points tax and lack of CORE.

-If they were to stay at their current cost, I think they'd need a pretty great strat or unit synergy to make them worth while. something like a 1CP  to ignore LoS. something like that would make their range relevant and their mediocre stats alright.

 

Demolisher Cannon

-Its interesting that it is on a T8 chassis, but the 24" range, Move 10", D6 shots, D6 damage and lack of CORE, all work together to kill it.

-IF this had ignore LoS baked into it, then I could see all of those restrictions being a decent compromise to be able to lob massive shells over buildings and terrain,

 

All Sniper weapons

-I'd like to see them do a pretty radical redesign, conceptually, of sniper weapons. Instead of being able to, or maybe in addition to, target enemy characters, restructure the attack allocation process for these weapons instead.

-something along the lines of

 

"If an attack successfully wounds the target unit, the player commanding the attacking model allocates that attack to one model in the target unit (this can be to any model in the unit and does not have to be allocated to a model that is within range of, or visible to, the attacking model). If a model in the target unit has already lost any wounds or has already had attacks allocated to it this phase, the attack must be allocated to that model."

 

-I think this would open up a whole new area for snipers to exploit. Instead of only hoping to chip off a wound or two from what will usually be a pretty well defended model, instead, Snipers could start to target models in units that may be carrying special weapons or have abilities. Think of being able to get rid of a heavy or power weapon in a squad first, or killing a standard or icon bearer first, or killing the Sergeant equivalent to have a better chance of the opponent lose more models in the morale phase.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Djangomatic82

[Subtleknife]

Personally I think plasma needs a rethink. I would make it the heavy elite/light veh killer. I dont think it should be a heavy vehicle killer. Certainly in 8th it muddies the waters.

[Dracos]

I like a lot of Djangomatic82 thoughts. I really like the idea of a Invulnerable Penetration (AP becomes IP) mechanic, but think maybe Mortals on 6 to wound might be more inline with current mechanics. 

 

Personally I'm not a fan of the proliferation or Invulnerables and Mortals preferring old school AP, Initiative stats and melee WS vs WS resolution *sigh* immersion was easier and the math really wasn't that hard. Anyone claiming they are trying to make entry into the game easier are fooling themselves. Yeah hey those Custodes models look cool dad ... uh huh. 

[BloodyB]

A couple of changes: Heavy bolter down to 1 damage, but 4 shots, it makes it feel more like an infantry mulcher than bargain basement plasma. Naturally, this should be across the board for all armies with a heavy bolter.

 

The Impulse should be able to take ten Primaris at it's point costs, it is just so pricey for six fellas. I don't care if it goes up a few points, but please don't make me pay more for my basic transport than I am for the basic troops that are using it.

 

Up the cost of Vanguard veterans a little, right now assault squads are unused simply because VV are so cheap.

 

While we are here, drop the double shooting for Eradicators, and instead give us a scale-cost fire twice stratagem for all gravis units with no split fire allowed. It will make Inceptors pretty disgusting, but if you need that much plasma to kill it, you shouldn't be fighting it in the first place. Besides, if you overcharge that unit, they die. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

 

Lascannons should be D3+d3, but I can do without if need be. Also, give the Incursors a melta mine instead of this Haywire junk, 2d3 mortal wounds like a melta bomb. Back in my day we were happy with our stupidly short range tank killin', gosh-darned Primaris Marines with their high falutin', fancy-shmancy whozitz! Also, Vanguard cannot deal with tanks right now, so that might help.

 

Also, if Reivers didn't suck, that would be grand. Make their weapon like a powerknife, AP-2 like the Custodes get! Or auto wound on a 6 to hit because of poison, something like that! And if you are going to make some weird subfaction of 'Vanguard' marines, and sell a box of several units, can we make sure that they all get the PHOBOS keyword? Looking at you Suppressors. It makes no difference to how I will play them, but it bugs me and my OCD Daemons.

 

Lastly, Geedubs, if you are reading this: Please, if you wouldn't mind making it so that my Repulsor could take part in a game that would be great. It has this weird problem, where every time I dare to place it lovingly on the field in my deployment phase, it magically attracts every shot of Strength 5 and above. This would be great if I could afford to field an army alongside it, but alas, I cannot. Please Games Workshop, pretty please, make my tank act more tankishly from now on.

 

Sorry for the rant, I just had a game, and made the mistake of fielding my Repulsor.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It doesn’t make sense to raise the cost of Vanguard Vets — it won’t make assault squads more attractive. It would be nice if the Impulsor could carry more AND got fly back.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Repulsors and Land Raiders have the same problem as well, just no durability without an invuln save and maybe more. Personally, I'd like them both to be addressed, and it'd be fantastically cool if they just let everyone ride in whatever. Make a new Rhino/LR kit and do a split pintle gunner, with your choice of Primaris or Classic and let people have fun with the stuff they like, is my opinion on that matter. You want treads and Primaris? Cool. Firstborn and Grav tanks? Cool. It just feels like such an arbitrary distinction that is totally meaningless now that they've started to normalize the numbers of wounds and all.

 

It's not a weapon, but assault marines would be more attractive if they split the datasheet, and at least without jump packs were a troops choice. We can see that Blood Claws for SW are attractive, so I think that's a bigger factor than points. Maybe just make them all troops, or give them objective secured at least.

 

Lascannons need to be better. I think all has been said there.

[MegaVolt87]

Three that stick out for me immediately-

 

Add -1AP to the OG boltgun profile.

 

The bolt carbine on phobos troops should be assault 3, but keep the other stats the same. There should be more firepower at the expense of AP because I see such units that take it as blazing away then throwing themselves into melee quickly. 

 

Add -1 AP on reviver combat knives, let them also retain the knife if they take a bolt carbine. They get an AP attack in melee instead of shooting which fits what the unit is about. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Oh, Reiver knives are ones I didn't mention. They need to be better. I really like the models, especially the bolt pistol and combat knife version. They need to be at least as good as an assault intercessor with the Astartes Chainsword.

 

Maybe bump them to have some sort of like power weapon almost? I don't know, but they need something done to them.

[CCE1981]

My thoughts……change the game from six sided dice to 10 sided dice.

 

 

Closer to topic

 

Bolters need AP

 

The Assault Intercessors fight twice stratagem should also affect Veteran Assault Intercessors

 

Bolter Discipline should affect all Rapid Fire Weapons.

 

Skyfire Missile should D6 against Aircraft and d6 against everything else.

 

Someone mentioned Flamers, flamers should ignore cover. They are overpriced for one, underpriced for 20, numbers help mitigate their swingy number of hits.

 

Demolisher Canon: make this baby do mortal wounds, random number of hits but all mortal. D6 Blast, all successful hits causes a Mortal wound on the target unit.

 

Eradicators - no double fire, where is the rapidfire melta version?

 

Supressors - their autocannon should be half the current range, should be able to deep strike, any turn they didn’t deepstrike should be able to move and shoot without penalty, advance and fire for a -1 to hit, 6” movement. Options for flame, and Volkite weapons as well as a Lastalon.

 

Reivers I have no clue what to do with these guys.

 

Vehicles need something more…. Maybe techmarines have a re-roll 1s to hit aura for them maybe it’s a replacement for their shoulder bolter.

 

Hammerfall bunker should get an option to DeepStrike turn 1 and when it lands -1 to hit. It’s missile array needs can shoot at units out of Los rule

 

Primaris Company Champion - similar No force org slot as firstborn

 

Impulsor needs its capacity increased to 11/6 for Intercessors/ Gravis

 

Took things a little outside the original intent but there is my take.

[MegaVolt87]

Suppressors are not Inceptors, they are normal heavy weapons troops with extra mvt to position themselves quickly. I don't think it's necessary to reduce range on suppressors weapons. Inceptors should have some kind of dual flamer varient though.

[Guest Triszin]

Bolt carbine:. Assault pistol 3

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think something as simple as a buff to the astartes grenade launcher could make a big difference in how useful the basic intercessor squad is.

[Brother Kraskor]

Repulsors and Land Raiders have the same problem as well, just no durability without an invuln save and maybe more. 

 

Aggressors need a 5++

 

 

*insert obligatory chuckles in Templar post* 

 

Lascannon could stay the same but just be cheaper imo. 

 

AP for bolters is an arms race, don't think it should happen.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Brother Kraskor

[Dracos]

 

 

Aggressors need a 5++

 

*insert obligatory chuckles in Templar post*

Phobos Captain *inserts* Oppressors End through High Marshall’s ribs after Striking from the Shadows ;)

Edited January 12, 2022 by Dracos

[Djangomatic82]

I've been thinking about what it would take to make the Lascannon competitive with Multi-Melta's.

 

Astartes Lascannon

Heavy D3/S9/Ap-3/Damage D6/ Ignore invulnerable save of 6+ and 5+

 

I'm pretty sure this would be a better implementation than making them the same as the Ad-Mech twin cognis lascannon, since that would make them uniformly better than multi-meltas and GW seems to want to push those pretty hard because of Primaris this edition.

 

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Just make it 3 +3d like the cognis…… it’s not rocket science.

[Orange Knight]

Having seen the new Tau rules...

 

The lascannon should be altered to damage 3+D3 (same with the Las Talon)

 

The heavy laser on Executioner should be flat damage 9, with additional mortal wounds on succesful damage. This is keeping in mind the cost of the vehicle.

 

The smaller variant on the Gladiator should be Damage 6 with additional mortal wounds on successful damage.

Remember that the Tau railgun is a platform that only costs 145 points.

[Lord_Ikka]

If they still want the regular lascannon to be swingy and not as good as the AdMech's cognis one, just have it be 2d3. It would still be less powerful, but it would at least double the minimum damage.

[Djangomatic82]

Just make it 3 +3d like the cognis…… it’s not rocket science.

The problem is that would invalidate the multi-melta. A cognis lascannon at Assault 2/S9/Ap-3/Damage 3+D3 does more damage against all targets from a longer range in every single scenario, even when the melta is in less than half range.

A Heavy D3/ Ignore Invulnerables of 6+ and 5+ would make the lascannon better at taking out things like Knights and other units with a 5++ and 6++, while leaving other high toughness targets to the lascannon. The swingness is a deliberate part of the design.

Every weapon should have its use case scenario, not just play into power creep by always just upping the ante.

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Djangomatic82

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So…. Melta can be easily spammed. d6 is hawt garbage. Ignoring invulnerable saves is the wrong way to go… and you can still roll a 1 or 2 for damage.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Black Blow Fly