Space Marine Weapon Changes

[Oxydo]

 

 

Just make it 3 +3d like the cognis…… it’s not rocket science.

The problem is that would invalidate the multi-melta. A cognis lascannon at Assault 2/S9/Ap-3/Damage 3+D3 does more damage against all targets from a longer range in every single scenario, even when the melta is in less than half range.

A Heavy D3/ Ignore Invulnerables of 6+ and 5+ would make the lascannon better at taking out things like Knights and other units with a 5++ and 6++, while leaving other high toughness targets to the lascannon. The swingness is a deliberate part of the design.

Every weapon should have its use case scenario, not just play into power creep by always just upping the ante.

A Cognis Lascannon is Assault 1 S9 AP-3 3+d3 dmg. It's only the twin Cognis that's Assault 2. And it's not like anyone suggested turning Lascannons into assault nor twin weapons, only the damage stat was mentioned.

[Djangomatic82]

 

The problem is, at a single shot, a cognis lascannon isnt much better than a regular lascanon, it is always going to be less damage on average than a melta outside of melta range and almost exactly 1/2 the damage of a melta inside of melta range.

 

[Oxydo]

 

 

 

The problem is, at a single shot, a cognis lascannon isnt much better than a regular lascanon, it is always going to be less damage on average than a melta outside of melta range and almost exactly 1/2 the damage of a melta inside of melta range.

And? Should the Lascannon be better/as good as a more expensive weapon with half the range that's been better at opening metal boxes pretty much forever?

 

The Lascannon's issues are, in my opinion, twofold.

A lack of reliable damage output due to 1 shot and d6 damage. The lack of shots isn't that big a problem since they are cheap and available in numbers. Any change from d6 to 2d3, 3+d3, or d6 min 3 would, for me, alleviate the randomness issue since you'll have a good chance of doing ok damage. And makes sure that when I point it at 2-4 wound models I don't have a 1/6 to 1/2 chance of only winging them.

 

The second and bigger issue is that it's often stuck on overpriced and medicore platforms that dies way too easily like Land Raiders, Predators, and so forth. But that's more of a unit issue rather than a weapon issue.

 

I understand that ignoring Invuls is the new hotness, but take a look at what weapons/units that actually have it. Nightbringer, Railheads, Shieldbreaker Missiles, Hex, Null Zone etc. It's weapons/units that are rare while I could quite easily cram a heck of a lot of Lascannons into my list because they are a common weapon.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't actually think that boosting weapon profiles increases unit diversity, so I've stayed out of this discussion, but Tau represent a pretty big power jump (I think they'll be a nightmare). I think alot of the unit entries with unique weapons should be looked now (vindicators, hunters, stalkers, etc.) but I think some non-damage upgrades should also be on the table.

 

For example, I think power of the machine spirit should upgrade every vehicle with some sort of transhuman effect. I can't really think of any power of the machine spirit units that are considered good so a buff like this makes sense. Another option would be that power of machine spirit vehicles have bs 2 this could either replace the transhuman effect or be in addition. I honestly believe most of the units with it need both.

 

Another change would be getting rid of 5 point tax per heavy weapon on vehicles. This tax doesn't make sense, I believe this is game wide but it's more difficult to tell with other armies that I own codex for, whereas with marines it's pretty easy to figure out with how flexible devs are. Regardless no vehicles should be paying it right now.

 

For the vindicator I'd like to see the damage changed to d3+3 and when you generate shots roll 2d6 use the highest value. 

 

For the hunter I'd change it to b2 and have either a single shot d6+6 or 2 shots at d3+3

 

For the stalker I would give it bs 2 and another shot.

 

For the lancer I'd increase the damage to D6 + 3

 

I'd probably also increase the bs of predators while I was at it. 

 

 

All that said I'm starting to hope that 10th starts fresh because I just feel that they're digging a hole with all of these damage boosts. I feel like my suggestion are ridiculous until I compare them to the Tau previews and the Eldar rumors and that scares me a bit.

 

 

[Djangomatic82]

 

The problem is, at a single shot, a cognis lascannon isnt much better than a regular lascanon, it is always going to be less damage on average than a melta outside of melta range and almost exactly 1/2 the damage of a melta inside of melta range.

And? Should the Lascannon be better/as good as a more expensive weapon with half the range that's been better at opening metal boxes pretty much forever?

 

Well, the entire premise of the thread is how to improve our weapons,

 

This topic is focused on what new weapon rules and stats can be amended in Codex Space Marines to bring the army into line with other Codex books fairly and provide internal balance.

 

What this topic is not designed to cover is the (perceived) issue of bloat, Tau and Eldar weapon superiority or rules/Codex creep.

****

Starting off, some of the big guns need amendment, namely Lascannons. In comparison to melta weapons, there just isn't the same incentive to take these weapons. I don't think they need anything fundamental, but I think a simple D6+1 damage would suffice.

 

As the charts i posted above show, D3 shot, ignore 6++ and 5++ would create a good niche for lascannons, without outright invalidating multi-melta's. As they stand now, multi melta's are 2X-3X better than Lascannons at a piddley 33% points premium.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s not true when you account for double the range.

[Djangomatic82]

That’s not true when you account for double the range.

considering the platforms multi melta's are being used on, as well as 1cp strategic reserves, range is much less of an issue than it used to be.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Anything firing at 1/2 range prolly won’t survive to shoot again.

[MegaVolt87]

Anything firing at 1/2 range prolly won’t survive to shoot again.

 

Its been this way for years. Units that die that way are pointed fairly enough their loss is worth it most of the time in a piece trade. Its also very SM/CSM lore wise, high dmg up close but stuck facing much of the opposing force after. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lascannons on the other hand can fire turn after turn from a safe position.

[Dracos]

Lascannons on the other hand can fire turn after turn from a safe position.

 

I might have agreed to that prior to 9th, but with the current board size and scoring system .... it seems less so than before.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s definitely safer.

[Djangomatic82]

Unless your playing on planet bowling ball with little to no obscuring terrain, the range advantage of Lascannons doesn't make up for doing only 1/3 of the damage, at best, that a Multi-Melta can do.

[Swordsman]

Interesting discussion.

 

As for me, I would be glad to see:

 

Unification of captain’s datasheets, really.

 

A merciful RIP to all those datasheets almost meaningless, counterbalanced by a total rework of those primaris ones nowadays in the middle of nowhere (Reiver?, servo turret? Suppressor? And the others). LEGEND for Tacticals, assault squads, scouts, old speeders, predators, stern guard (also vanguard, IF adequately reworked the veteran Intercessors), vi vindicators. and so on. For these maybe a future in HH new game.

 

Hellblaster significant points drop, 25 would be good. Even in BT inv 5++ they are too squishy.

 

Aggressor, inv? Return of some kind of special rule?

 

Centurion points drop. Core and… Primaris KW. Yes.

 

About impulsor. The capability to transport alternatively 3 gravis would be appreciated.

 

Repulsor executioner reworked as MBT without transport capability, and significant points drop. Maybe a flare-shied for a -1 D?

 

Primaris THUNDERFIRE with playable profile .

 

General 20% points drop.

 

About Weapon’s profile:

 

Laser, d3+3 and no more

Melta are ok, maybe 2d3 instead of the D6.

A rule to make bolter better vs infantry (+1 to wound? RR1’sTW?)

Agree with the cover ignoring flamers.

 

There is a LOT that could be done. But we are sadly suited to the unfair ed meaningless approach usually adopted by GW.

 

P.S. …PRIMARIS DROP PODS.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Swordsman

[Medjugorje]

I think one unit that has the potential to be great, but has been a bit underwhelming, is the Hellblaster squad.

 

The unit has unique plasma weapons, and I would adjust each variant to make it more compelling.

 

For the assault variant, I would have the profile be:

 

Assault 3, Str 6, AP-4, Damage 1

Overcharged it's Str 7, Damage 2, overheats on a 1

 

For the regular variant:

 

Rapid Fire 1, Str 7, AP-4, Damage 2

Overcharged it's Str 8, Damage 3, overheats on a 1

 

For the Heavy Variant:

 

Heavy 1, Str 8, AP-4, Damage 3

Overcharged it's Str 9, Damage 4, overheats on a 1

I think the statline is absolute okay. They have Core and they have access to Trnashuman ph. 

 

I dont like the plasmarule.. d3 mortals instead of a dead marine when rolled a ONE would be okay - and faster although there are more dice.

Then point reductions and everything is fine. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Unless your playing on planet bowling ball with little to no obscuring terrain, the range advantage of Lascannons doesn't make up for doing only 1/3 of the damage, at best, that a Multi-Melta can do.

A Game isn't one shooting phase. Your MM is within 24" of the enemy, ideally within 12". That's really close, so the unit carrying that is like to get pasted on the next turn. My lascannon on the other hand is operating at ranges beyond 24", so it has a higher chance of surviving to keep firing on multiple turns.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Unless your playing on planet bowling ball with little to no obscuring terrain, the range advantage of Lascannons doesn't make up for doing only 1/3 of the damage, at best, that a Multi-Melta can do.

A Game isn't one shooting phase. Your MM is within 24" of the enemy, ideally within 12". That's really close, so the unit carrying that is like to get pasted on the next turn. My lascannon on the other hand is operating at ranges beyond 24", so it has a higher chance of surviving to keep firing on multiple turns.

 

 

I really think that different terrain layouts can drastically change people's opinions on what's good. That said I think the lists that are designed to do well on tables with a high-density terrain are going to suffer less when they do play on a table with light terrain because they're already leaning into an alpha strike strategy. Whereas a static army that performs well on a light terrain table may not get a lot of shots if there is a bunch of obscuring in their way.

 

It's part of the reason I talked about the heavy weapon tax vehicles pay because I think with a predators higher movement value could start to take advantage of that range while still using obscuring to their benefit, it's just the drawbacks for being a vehicle outweigh that potential currently. 

[Angelus Nex]

Maybe weapons shouldn't be boosted, but just the -1 damage shouldn't be on all the things.

[Dracos]

 

Unless your playing on planet bowling ball with little to no obscuring terrain, the range advantage of Lascannons doesn't make up for doing only 1/3 of the damage, at best, that a Multi-Melta can do.

A Game isn't one shooting phase. ….

(Bolded on my part ;))

 

…. ya see it’s comments like this is why we end up with things like the Tau Codex days later ;) (joking)

[CCE1981]

I think I figured a good fix for Aggressor Boltstorm Gauntlets that would merge them with the Gravis Captain profile. In their shooting profile descrption add “these weapons type becomes PISTOL when this unit is within 1” of an enemy model.”

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

The problem is, at a single shot, a cognis lascannon isnt much better than a regular lascanon, it is always going to be less damage on average than a melta outside of melta range and almost exactly 1/2 the damage of a melta inside of melta range.

And? Should the Lascannon be better/as good as a more expensive weapon with half the range that's been better at opening metal boxes pretty much forever?

 

The Lascannon's issues are, in my opinion, twofold.

A lack of reliable damage output due to 1 shot and d6 damage. The lack of shots isn't that big a problem since they are cheap and available in numbers. Any change from d6 to 2d3, 3+d3, or d6 min 3 would, for me, alleviate the randomness issue since you'll have a good chance of doing ok damage. And makes sure that when I point it at 2-4 wound models I don't have a 1/6 to 1/2 chance of only winging them.

 

The second and bigger issue is that it's often stuck on overpriced and medicore platforms that dies way too easily like Land Raiders, Predators, and so forth. But that's more of a unit issue rather than a weapon issue.

 

I understand that ignoring Invuls is the new hotness, but take a look at what weapons/units that actually have it. Nightbringer, Railheads, Shieldbreaker Missiles, Hex, Null Zone etc. It's weapons/units that are rare while I could quite easily cram a heck of a lot of Lascannons into my list because they are a common weapon.

I’d just make them either flat 6 damage or keep the current d6 set up but give it a rule that an unmodified 6 to wound causes a mortal wound.

[bigtrouble]

I think D6 on the missile launcher and lascannon is fine. It represents to me the increased chance of a glancing or slightly off target blow on such a long range weapon. I’m not a fan of any proliferation of D3+d3 weapons, I think they’re unbalanced on the Ironstriders, and useless on the RepEx at its current point cost. They are clearly in a separate class from a shoulder-fired squad heavy weapon.

 

Compare to the Rift Cannon on the Dark Talon, which is “supposed” to be a scary devastating weapon. it’s heavy D3, S12 and 3MW. Potentially 9 unsavable Damage per shooting phase. Against hard targets, it’s doing an average expected value of 2 damage per turn. Against T6 it does an expected 2.5. A twin lascannon would do 2.6 against hard targets before you consider invuls. That’s a fair balance, IMO.

 

The ironstrider doing an expected 3.33 in the same scenario on a 6W, T6 platform that moves 10”, and has a 6++ for ONLY 75 POINTS is the balance problem, not the swingy D6.

[CCE1981]

A radical change: drop to-wound rolls. If you hit you wound. For every point of Strength above Toughness you increase AP, for every point of Strength below Toughness decrease AP.

[The Unseen]

A radical change: drop to-wound rolls. If you hit you wound. For every point of Strength above Toughness you increase AP, for every point of Strength below Toughness decrease AP.

So your solution to the problem of the game being too lethal is too... remove a limiter on damage and therefore make everything die even faster?

Wut?

 

Also makes no sense and very quickly breaks and makes high toughness models unkillable by low ap weapons and low save models just instantly die. No thanks.

 

The problem isn't really the d6 so much as the cost.

If the weapons average damage was looked at for the pts you can make them effective.

But it seems GW has pointed d6 weapons like they always roll 5s and 6s on damage.

And so you cant bring them in enough quantity to balance out the variance. This problem is exacerbated for marines because we don't have cheap ways of bringing effective ranged stuff for cheap, since we heavily over pay for mediocre durability or are stuck with legacy units gw DOESN'T want to be good. Like the predator and other such units.

4 lascannons is an ok amount of strong firepower, but with basically zero synergy and a fragile hull, it'd have to be cheap. Instead it's what, 170 pts or something?

 

And melta is pointed similarly, but rewards you getting in close with much more significant minimum damage. Rolling a 1 still sucks, but its still doing 3 damage. The d3+3 and d6 weapons should probably all be 2d3 instead.

Lessens the variance without removing it entirely, and never does just 1 damage.

Edited February 12, 2022 by The Unseen

[CCE1981]

You’re forgetting that a roll of “1” is still a failure. The extra wounds from lasguns would be mitigated by normal Marine Saves going ip to a 2+.

 

My change would reduce time, removing an entire step by removing a dice roll.

 

Yes, other changes need to be made, but moving from

7th ed to 8th ed was a similar big change. Personally I think this game should move to a d10 instead of a d6, which would allow a lot more variance in toughness, strength, bs, ws, etc, between models. However this would need other things like dropping to-wound rolls to streamline gameplay.