Space Marine Weapon Changes

[bigtrouble]

A radical change: drop to-wound rolls. If you hit you wound. For every point of Strength above Toughness you increase AP, for every point of Strength below Toughness decrease AP.

Interesting idea. I would love to see how it charts out. I find the wound roll clunky or arbitrary, even if it does open up design space. This seems like it could be more rational, with some rewrites to weapon stats and abilities. There would need to be a lot more opportunities to modify saves, which could replace some of the missing design that the wound mechanic allows (i.e. re-rolls, auto wound)

[CCE1981]

 

A radical change: drop to-wound rolls. If you hit you wound. For every point of Strength above Toughness you increase AP, for every point of Strength below Toughness decrease AP.

Interesting idea. I would love to see how it charts out. I find the wound roll clunky or arbitrary, even if it does open up design space. This seems like it could be more rational, with some rewrites to weapon stats and abilities. There would need to be a lot more opportunities to modify saves, which could replace some of the missing design that the wound mechanic allows (i.e. re-rolls, auto wound)

I said after this that to modify save I would still use strength, toughness and AP. Weapons could have native AP, say Sniper Rifle, Or Lascannons, stuff like lasguns can still remain at 0 AP. Compare Strength to Toughness. For every point of Strength above Toughness INCREASE AP, for every point of Strength below Toughness DECREASE AP. These should stack with Doctrines.

 

A lasgun Str 3 vs a Space Marine T 4, the Space Marines Armor save would get a +1 to his save.

 

A Space Marine Scout Sniper Rifle Str4 hits a Space Marine, Str =T, no change in native AP, the Marine gets his normal 3+ save.

 

A Bolter Str 4 vs Guardsman T 3, Str is 1 more than T, increase AP the Guardsman gets a -1 to his save.

 

A Lascannon Str 9 hits a Predator T7. Str is 2 more than T, the Predator would get -5 to it’s save.

 

Note with d6, a lot of AP would have to be redone OR move to d10. I believe moving to d10 or for better linearity d12 would be better for the game. The normal 3+ Space Marine Save would go to a 5+ save in either polyhedral. Increasing die facings would massively help in the granularity of the game.

[bigtrouble]

I know I have read somewhere that they are very against anything but d6 because of its perception as not a normal board game die. 2d6 could give that kind of granularity, but obviously is then weighted toward the middle. If you think about it though, hit + wound is essentially a 2d6 system.

[Dracos]

Could you imagine the Heavy Assault Cannon using 2d6 to hit? Gah!

 

I do miss the old AP and melee rules when WS, (Initiative),and Armor Saves actually had value.

[TheNewman]

Could you imagine the Heavy Assault Cannon using 2d6 to hit? Gah!

 

I do miss the old AP and melee rules when WS, (Initiative),and Armor Saves actually had value.

In some ways the old AP system was worse though. Yeah you got your full save against a lot of things, but people knew that and didn't bring "a lot of things" so most of the time a 3+ wasn't worth anything anyway.

 

I honestly don't think the AP system is the problem, I think either GW was a lot too generous with the AP or else not generous enough with 2+ or better base Save stats.

Edited February 14, 2022 by TheNewman

[Tiger9gamer]

so for weapons I would love if the Vindicator demolisher cannon got something like D3+3 dice  for it's number of attacks. I always found it odd how a unit that could wipe a whole squad of terminators with how many hits it can get now can miss utterly.

I also know that it's the imperial guard's gimmick, but I would like to see something similar to grinding advance on a predator. if It moves half it's speed it double the number of shots of it's main turret. Simple, effective, and gives you a reason to bring a predator over something like a Gladiator or a lascannon razorback. 

this is mainly a gripe for Black templars, but letting all power weapons give +1 attack would be nice. I want weapon diversity on my space knights dammit, and every time I bring a power sword on an initiate I feel like I am wasting points.

[XeonDragon]

I'd like to see all plasma weapons do a mortal wound on a roll of a 1 instead of killing infantry. I like the idea of the weapon vomiting plasma on the wielder instead of just blowing up. It would make massed plasma more viable, and overcharging less deadly but still being a risk. 

[XeonDragon]

I'd also like to see some form of 'overcharge' option on other multi-shot energy weapons. For example, maybe allow grav cannons to lose a shot in exchange for an extra point of strength? So a 4-shot grav cannon could take 1 shot at strength 8 for example, or a multi-melta one shot for strength 9. I would have suggested an extra point of AP, but given the prevalence of ++ saves, not sure that would make sense.

 

I agree that las-cannons being D3+3 would be good, or alternatively D6 and minimum of 3. Whilst I am not a huge fan of the increased  (and increasing) lethality of 9th edition generally, if that is the way the game is going to evolve then maybe *gasp* abandoning D6 as the 'metric' for damage is an idea and go towards something like 2D4+1 or 1D8+1 for las cannons? Even having D8 damage - whilst being wildly variable - would, I think, make people look twice again at las cannons. 

[Orange Knight]

Having seen the new weapon profiles of Tau and Eldar weapons, and the rules that their units have, my opinion has changed to one where I think the Marine weapon and unit profiles need some significant boosts.

 

I think I'll lay low until the next codex comes out, as I don't want to share negative opinions in posts that discuss this subject.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We are definitely falling behind the power creep now .

[Djangomatic82]

To try and bring this topic back to the OP's idea, what would need to be changed to bring our weapons up to par with current standards?

 

As I've said before and displayed in multiple charts, boosting Lascannons to Damage 3+D3 doesn't bring them up to par, only providing a 40% bump in damage, versus basic melta doing 80% more damage than a lascannon at a 33% points premium.

 

Heavy D3 Lascannon Vs. Heavy 1 Las 3+D3 Vs. Multi-Melta

Las 1 hit: 55%

Las 3+D3: 79%
MM >12":100%
Las 2 hits:110%
MM <12":157%
Las 3 hits:166%

 

To clarify, the only reason I keep going on about the comparison is because Melta has shown itself to be the only anti tank option we have that is appropriately costed for the amount of damage it does. Las, Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannons, etc... and all the platforms that are stuck with those being their only anti tank option, are clearly being hampered because of that pigeon holing.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Djangomatic82

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

D6 just doesn’t cut it — bright lance is now 3 + d3… I’ll take a 40% increase in damage.