Chapter Approved 2022 Speculation and Updates

[EmperorGTank]

Hey everybody! Relatively long-time SIsters player here, started playing back around 2008 with the 3rd Edition Witch Hunters Codex! Been getting in games on and off since our new codex dropped and the major lockdown lifted during the early part of last year! Even re-collected and re-painted my entire army in the new plastic range over the course of 2020 and 2021 (though I kept a small portion of my original metal army for nostalgia of course). I know the leaks from Chapter Approved 2022 beyond the changes to missions and secondaries have not been very forthcoming (at least compared to the leaks from the Eldar codex) but I wanted to start a thread discussing what we expect to happen regarding our points changes! Additionally, any updates that we learn can go in here too.

 

Personally, while I have been enjoying our codex so far I am really hoping that the Exorcist gets a points reduction of some kind, either to the tank itself or even just the anti-tank missiles. I know the AP/Toughness/Wounds nerf was mostly for GW to sell the Castigator, but now that the initial hype is over, the 180 with the anti-tank option (the main option it has always been equipped with until the 8th edition codex) just seems a bit pricey. I think if the missiles were reduced to even 15 or 20 points instead of 30 that would be a huge boost to the vehicle. Honestly, with the Castigator being our MBT now I think the anti-tank missiles could even go down to around 10 and be fine compared to the free anti-infantry missiles. That way the Exorcist ends up being 160 for dedicated anti-tank, and the Castigator is 165 for dedicated anti-tank (with each tank being 150 and 160, respectively, for more anti-infantry focused loadouts). The stratagem for ignoring LoS is costed fairly enough at 2CP that I just don't think we should be paying an additional 15-20 points premium for the Exorcist as well. That is the one change I am really hoping for in CA 2022, even a drop to 170 would be welcome! The Exorcist I see as our "Whirlwind" equivalent but balanced around the fact that it needs the stratagem to get the ignoring LoS ability the Whirlwind gets passively (though the Whirlwind has an overall weaker main weapon). The WW is 135 with its best anti-tank weapon while the Exorcist is 180 with its anti-tank missiles (while they are 125 and 150, respectively with their anti-infantry loadouts). I agree the Exorcist SHOULD be costed more than the WW, but 25-45 points more is just a bit much for two tanks with pretty much the same profile beyond their weapons. Hopefully it comes back down to the 150-170 bracket! It is one of my favorite models, I love the aesthetic and always have, and while vehicles are still not in a great place right now I still want them to be fairly costed, leading to them being a bit more viable in casually competitive play.

 

I also completely expect Vahl to go up to somewhere between 275 and 290. I don't think she is TOO cheap for what she does, but she feels like a model they costed in such a way to make you buy her, and now that we have had her for 6 months of fun, they give her a bit of a Gulliman treatment and give her a small points bump. While upsetting, I would be okay with it as right now she feels a bit too much like an auto-include at 2k points. 

 

Finally, Paragon Warsuits just seem too squishy at 80-90 points a model. I think a reduction to 65-70 a model and then 10 for the MM build would be more appropriate. Even just investing in a prayer or WT to get them to a 5++ feels like it doesn't do enough based on their 4 wounds. If they had some kind of wound buff to 5 or even 6 (I know never but hey, I can dream) then 80 points base would be fine. I also think flexibility in the squad size like penitent engines or mortifiers would have helped the issue as well. I am all for making them a little more expensive than Penitent Engines and Mortifiers, but their 2+/6++ -1 damage and 4 wounds feels pretty balanced with the 4+ (3+)/5+++ and 5 wounds that the other walkers get. The -1 damage definitely makes it fair to give them a points bump comparatively, so either 65 or 70 would be fine, with +10 for the Multi Melta. I think they would see the table a bit more often

 

I am certain there are other models in the book that also barely see the table and could really use a points drop or even some things that feel a bit undercosted for their efficiency, but from what I am seeing in my own games, it seems like every one of our "staple" units are pretty fairly priced!

 

Anyway, these are just some of my thoughts on what we might see out of CA 2022. Of course, GW could just say that we are completely fine (which I believe we are, still being in the upper tier of armies despite the expected codex creep of the edition) and choose to do nothing, but I expect at least some point changes, even if they all end up being nerfs of some kind! Regardless, I am just happy we are finally getting the respect we have been owed since about 2003, and I am so glad to be a sort of co-lead along with marines for 9th edition! I hope to hear from some of you about what you guys think should happen with our points in CA and what you expect to occur!

 

The Emperor Protects!

[Bonzi]

If you want my opinion on what will happen:

 

-10 to 15 point drop on Exorcists and Castigators.

 

-5 to 10 points per model drop on Paragon Warsuits.

 

+5 to 15pts on Vahl, Celestine, and Ephrael Stern.

 

Possible Changes:

 

+1pt for Retributors and Repentia

 

Wishlist:

 

-5pts: Missionary, Priest, Dialogus, and Hospitaler.

 

-10 to 15pts for Immolators

 

Metawide Wishlist:

 

-Samll points increase for multimeltas, cognis lascannons, and dark lances.

 

-Small points reduction for all d6 or d3 weapons.

 

The current meta makes most vehicles irrelevant. Ultra-reliable high damage weapons need to go up in cost while a lot of chassis (particularly Imperium vehicles with no real defenses) need a modest drop in points.

 

Sisters Codex is in a strong place with good internal balance. We only have a few real points offenders (Exorcist, Castigator, Paragons, and Vahl). Some small shifts would make a few less ideal units much more interesting and would really make all the choices viable. This assumes GW takes the opportunity to reign in the top meta crushers and really lift up some of the duds like Necrons, BA, SW, Astra Militarum and Marines who are all falling behind the current arms race.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Bonzi

[EmperorGTank]

I am in overall agreement with all of those sentiments. I honestly forgot about Immolators completely, that's how little I put them on the table over Rhinos. I definitely think they would compete at around 100-110 points compared to what we get for 80 with Rhinos. It might be worth putting Rets or Dominions in there again if they do get some kind of drop.

 

Celestine at 200, personally, has always just felt right to me. She was 201 back in 3rd edition, then 135 in 5th through 7th until her pretty powerful update, when she was 200 again, and she was still 200 at the start of 8th which was relatively fair even with her free AoF, and then she got worse but dropped to 170/160, and now she's again 200. I know she is remarkably durable for what she is and that can be frustrating especially with the wonder twins being a part of the unit again, but her entire narrative schtick is how you can never really kill her so it just feels good on the table. She is definitely brutal in certain matchups and can harass opponents or entire table quarters but 200 is so fair for her. At most I could see the 5 point bump to 205. The fact that she no longer has that 7th wound too definitely makes a difference.

 

I know Stern is pretty good, but personally I would only use her if you did not also HAVE to bring Kyganil (I am primarily a Sisters purist other than the occasional Ministorum unit or Missionary/Preacher). Since I haven't played with her I won't comment, but a 5 point bump I am sure would be fair. 

 

Vahl definitely in agreement she could go up to 280 easy, though if it is 270/275 I will be glad.

 

The points bump for Rets and Repentia I don't think is necessary but I could see it for one of them. Honestly, give the bump to Repentia and just make the Simulacrum 5 points for Rets like it is for every other unit. Without ignoring the heavy weapon penalty I think the 1 point price Rets pay over Battle Sisters for ignoring cover is easily fair enough. Repentia going back to 15 though is so reasonable to me.

 

For the rest of your Wishlist it would be really nice to drop most of those support characters by a small amount. A 5 point drop to not only Missionaries, Preachers, the Dialogus, and Hospitaller but ALL of our elite characters would be incredibly fair I think. The Dogmata I could see going to 60 too, but if she stays at 65 I don't mind. But Imagifiers especially need some kind of reduction. I know the Strength buff is good when applied correctly and with a plan in mind especially in a Bloody Rose/melee focused list. Personally, however, I play pretty shooty Sisters with a unit or two of melee options (usually Repentia/Sacresants) to either counter charge or trade up against a major unit I need gone on my opponent's side of the field. Because of my either MSU build, or one big blob of 20 style with lots of support character buffs dishing out a bunch of Storm Bolter/Bolter shots each turn I would love to see some kind of change to the Tale of the Stoic or just a good 10 point drop to the Imagifier. I would have loved if it just gave light or dense cover, I know the ignoring AP was just insane but now it is just so unusable without going complete anti psychic or mostly melee focused. If it was 40 points I would be more tempted to use it with some footslogging sacresants and battle sisters blobs or even with some Repentia coming out of a Rhino with the Superior so they are S7 with that +1 to wound.

 

But I completely agree we are in a great place overall right now and definitely a points hike across the board to reliable damage weapons would be fine if it coincides with a small buff to the random shot weapons. That Castigator Battle Cannon would really be nice if it was free, makes rolling that 1 for its number of shots (and then CP rerolling into a 1) feel much better without the 5 point tax, and I already spoke about the Exorcist Missile Launcher. 15 points for them would be great, even 20 I would pay, but 30 is just too much even with 3d3 shots which I love. The fact we have access to somewhat reliable S9 though beyond just a relic pistol or some weird roundabout strats makes me so happy. It is not a great answer for T8, but at leasst its an option which we did not have at all when I started playing! Getting through Armor 14 was a nightmare even with meltas until the beginning o 7th, and even then, I just wanted some long range lascannon shots to crack open tanks lol!

 

If even half of what you mentioned happens I will be so glad and I think it will make the game so much better this edition (short of every faction just getting their codex release).

[Blurf]

If you want my opinion on what will happen:

 

-10 to 15 point drop on Exorcists and Castigators.

 

-5 to 10 points per model drop on Paragon Warsuits.

 

+5 to 15pts on Vahl, Celestine, and Ephrael Stern.

 

Possible Changes:

 

+1pt for Retributors and Repentia

 

Wishlist:

 

-5pts: Missionary, Priest, Dialogus, and Hospitaler.

 

-10 to 15pts for Immolators

 

Metawide Wishlist:

 

-Samll points increase for multimeltas, cognis lascannons, and dark lances.

 

-Small points reduction for all d6 or d3 weapons.

 

The current meta makes most vehicles irrelevant. Ultra-reliable high damage weapons need to go up in cost while a lot of chassis (particularly Imperium vehicles with no real defenses) need a modest drop in points.

 

Sisters Codex is in a strong place with good internal balance. We only have a few real points offenders (Exorcist, Castigator, Paragons, and Vahl). Some small shifts would make a few less ideal units much more interesting and would really make all the choices viable. This assumes GW takes the opportunity to reign in the top meta crushers and really lift up some of the duds like Necrons, BA, SW, Astra Militarum and Marines who are all falling behind the current arms race.

The problem is, point changes that small result in no meaningful change to the army as a whole, especially the vehicles. All that ends up happening is you have a handful less upgrades, not a different unit composition.

 

My philosophy with point changes is that they should open up options. Small nerfs to things that are extremely strong, large buffs to things that suck. Sometimes people see things like "Vahl+10 and Immolators-20" and get the idea that that means a net 10pt drop for the army. It does NOT. No one was taking immolators, so drops for immolators change nothing until people start using them. Vahl +10 and Immolators -20 is still a 10 point increase on the army as a whole, it just opens up the option of using immolators to fill a specific niche occasionally.

 

For Vahl, 10-15 points makes sense, but more for future proofing than anything. It's not like she's out there building old school guillaman balls. Sisters have ONE decent shooting unit and most of our best melee units already have rerolls. The fact that Vahl ends up buffing herself or Celestine more often than not is a good indicator of how limited her utility is in practice. Her actual physical combat ability (especially shooting) is amazing and could warrant the increase. I still think she's a bit overrated but her representation is so high I can't see her NOT getting hit.

 

Celestine and Stern are honestly in perfect spots. I don't see any need to change either one of them. I wish we could take stern solo to save some points but...it is what it is.

 

Repentia have been falling off a bit lately, largely due to how many things don't care about D2. They really don't need a bump.

 

Retributors actually need a DROP if multimeltas are going up (which I agree, they should), losing Argent Shroud 'counts as stationary' out of reserve hurt them a lot. You see two units in every build because they're the only thing sisters have that does meaningful damage at beyond 12". Not because they're OP. Assuming a 5pt nerf to multimeltas, I would do a 2 point drop for rets. No net change for 2 melta builds but a net increase of only 10 for 4 melta loadouts. With no change to immolators, I'd leave them where they are.

 

The character drops I agree with, they're so low points that a 5 point change might be enough to get them on the table more.

 

Paragon warsuits are...weird. They see some fringe play, but mostly as an extra check on marine dreadnaughts (something Bloody Rose specifically struggles with) due to them being a relatively mobile Multimelta Platform (the only weapon they should be equipping) which means that their MM need to dodge the bump AND see a 10 point reduction.

This has the knock-on effect of Mortifiers and Penitent engines needing a 5 point drop, but with how the meta game looks currently, they probably need that anyway.

 

Covering some units that didn't get mentioned:

Personally, I think Battle Sisters could drop to 10. They're badly crowded out by specialist options as is and it would also free up room for changes like:

 

Regular Celestians down to 11. At 13 they see 0 play. At 11, you might grab one unit in Argent Shroud lists.

 

Sacrosancts. Up 1. Sacrosancts are extremely good, especially with our great character options. A 1 point bump makes them less of an obvious option.

 

Novitiates down 1ppm (unit to 65) needs it to match the Battle Sister drop.

 

Now that leads us to the BAD 3.

 

Immolators (easily the worst unit in the last book, now the best of our vehicles despite eating MORE nerfs) can kick out enough multimelta shots that a point drop should be all they need. 15-20pts on the chassis+ no change on Twin Multimelta puts them in a spot where mech lists are somewhat viable (despite them popping like balloons). I'd also like to see immolation flamers go down 5 points, just so it's not quite so obvious what the correct weapon choice is.

 

Exorcists: Whoever thought these would be worth 180pts with the insane nerfs they took in the new books must have been high. They lost a point of toughness, a point of AP, a wound, and their BEST stratagem and they thought that was only worth 15pts? Stupid.

 

To fix exorcists, you first have to fix Devastating Refrain. That strat being 2CP is asinine. Nothing like taking an overpriced tank and making it cost 2CP to actually shoot its gun. Personally, I think they should bring back old devastating refrain and make them shoot out of LoS stock, but failing that they MUST make this strat 1CP for Exorcists to see ANY use.

 

Outside of that, they also need a 30pt drop minimum. Any Rhino chassis vehicle that doesn't have a transport capacity MUST be dirt cheap to have any value, because you'll lose 3 of these per turn against most semi-competitive or better list. Also consider that right now a TwinMM Immolator is 150pts and sees almost zero play despite doing almost the same amount of damage per turn (significantly more if they get into melta range). If an MMImmolator is fair at 135 (like was suggested) then the Exorcist must be NO MORE than 150. Personally though, I think both could be even lower and still probably not see any play. That's how bad rhino chassis that aren't rhinos are right now.

 

Which brings us to the uncontested worst unit in the book. The Castigator. The Castigator is 160pts (165pts for it's battlecannon version) and does about the same damage to a rhino chassis as a SINGLE multimelta Paragon warsuit. (It's about a 2 wound difference unbuffed.) Here's the thing about Paragon warsuits though, Paragon warsuits are CORE. They can benefit from Vahl's full rerolls and to wound aura. They also have Multimelta, which means melta range. All things the Castigator DOESN'T have access to. Fully buffed, in Melta Range ONE paragon warsuit does more damage to a rhino chassis than a Castigator. ONE.

 

The only things the Castigator have going for it over just a single paragon warsuit is the much longer range (72" Means that you can hit the whole table...for how much that matters) and its higher wound count and toughness. The thing is though, it costs as much as TWO paragon warsuits, which is 10wounds with -1 damage split across 2 bodies. T5 vs T7 is irrelevant when they're both eating darklances anyway so in practice 165 points of castigator does maybe 60% the damage of 180pts of Paragon warsuits while being less survivable, NOT EVEN INCLUDING THEIR MELEE.

 

The Castigator cannot be fixed as it stands. It's rules are too terrible. It needs to be able to shoot twice or ignore LoS (per datasheet, a stratagem won't help) before you can even consider a point changes. Without some fundamental change to the way the tank functions it's worth maybe...100pts for the battle cannon version? Even then, I'd probably rather have an immolator.

[EmperorGTank]

A 20 point reduction to Immolators would definitely be welcome, and I would not scoff at the Exorcist just going down to 150 points with the anti-tank missiles and maybe a little cheaper for the anti-infantry ones. Seeing our troops drop by a point would be awesome and after my last game where my 10 Sacresants cut down 2 Armiger Warglaives in combat I think going up to 15 points for them would be fair. Retributors could definitely do with a drop of some kind, but I would still say it isn't truly necessary unless MMs go up in points game wide. 

 

With the Castigator, I agree it is definitely bad. I keep trying to play one in more casual lists for pickup games and out of the 3 games I have tried it, it has died before doing much other than put some wounds on a big thing with its cannon in 2 and the other it took out its target with its heavy bolters on a pretty amazing roll but the battle cannon was also going into it so it did not even get to fire it. Personally, as I said above, I just like that we have a S9 option in the codex, and its a bonus to finally have something with more than 48" range, but it definitely is not a competitive option at all. Maybe we will get some kind of errata at some point, even if it doesnt get any ignoring LoS or firing twice mechanic, if it drops by 20-30 points and got a sort of basilisk treatment where its battle cannon could roll 2d6 and pick the highest I think it would at least be better. Maybe it would not out compete Warsuits or much else but its viability would increase, adding even more internal balance to the book.

 

At this point we just have to wait and see. I want to say like 75-80% of our codex is really well thought out and functions the way it is supposed to, with good internal balance and a versatile enough roster to deal with most matchups. The vehicles beyond the Rhino, the Imagifier's Tale of the Stoic, the price of the Warsuits, and Aestred/Agathae are the only units/things that I think really need some kind of points reduction or major change to their mechanics to have them actually see the table more often if at all. For extreme casula and narrative play they are okay, but for anything matched play those units/abilities need some help.

[Blurf]

A 20 point reduction to Immolators would definitely be welcome, and I would not scoff at the Exorcist just going down to 150 points with the anti-tank missiles and maybe a little cheaper for the anti-infantry ones. Seeing our troops drop by a point would be awesome and after my last game where my 10 Sacresants cut down 2 Armiger Warglaives in combat I think going up to 15 points for them would be fair. Retributors could definitely do with a drop of some kind, but I would still say it isn't truly necessary unless MMs go up in points game wide. 

 

With the Castigator, I agree it is definitely bad. I keep trying to play one in more casual lists for pickup games and out of the 3 games I have tried it, it has died before doing much other than put some wounds on a big thing with its cannon in 2 and the other it took out its target with its heavy bolters on a pretty amazing roll but the battle cannon was also going into it so it did not even get to fire it. Personally, as I said above, I just like that we have a S9 option in the codex, and its a bonus to finally have something with more than 48" range, but it definitely is not a competitive option at all. Maybe we will get some kind of errata at some point, even if it doesnt get any ignoring LoS or firing twice mechanic, if it drops by 20-30 points and got a sort of basilisk treatment where its battle cannon could roll 2d6 and pick the highest I think it would at least be better. Maybe it would not out compete Warsuits or much else but its viability would increase, adding even more internal balance to the book.

 

At this point we just have to wait and see. I want to say like 75-80% of our codex is really well thought out and functions the way it is supposed to, with good internal balance and a versatile enough roster to deal with most matchups. The vehicles beyond the Rhino, the Imagifier's Tale of the Stoic, the price of the Warsuits, and Aestred/Agathae are the only units/things that I think really need some kind of points reduction or major change to their mechanics to have them actually see the table more often if at all. For extreme casula and narrative play they are okay, but for anything matched play those units/abilities need some help.

Agreed. This book was overall a small step back in power from the previous book but it did make gains in terms of its flexibility in return. The internal balance of the things that remained good is solid and the overall powerlevel is still firmly in the top half of all books.

 

The big problem remains, though, that there are some truly asinine things in there that were fine in the previous book that are really holding us back in places. You touched on a lot of them.

 

How the Castigator and the imagifier got past QC is utterly beyond me. What S3 gun did they think we would pay 50pts to be protected against? Just get rid of the rule at that point. At least astrid is clearly intend to be a crusade option. The changes to the Triumph were also so painful, I think I've seen ONE on the table since the new book dropped and the dude straight up said he was cutting it after the event. I actually forgot that was even in the book until I started looking for more things that were wrong.

 

The book did a good job of smoothing out the powercurve at the top end. It didn't do so well avoiding making garbage at the bottom end though.

[Bonzi]

I totally forgot about the Astred Banner thing. My god the rules for that are so bad I'm not sure I'd take it in matched play unless it was nearly free. It's clearly themed towards Crusade but honestly it's not even worth it for that. What a bizarre unit. The greater tragedy being how fantastic the banner model is...I want to run it just on looks but man, there is a level of garbage I just don't need in my lists and that banner is it.

 

I did forget to mention: I'd like a FAQ on Celestine so the unit didn't hand out max points for the Assassination secondary. Killing those Gemini should not give your opponent 3 points each time they do it.

[Blurf]

I totally forgot about the Astred Banner thing. My god the rules for that are so bad I'm not sure I'd take it in matched play unless it was nearly free. It's clearly themed towards Crusade but honestly it's not even worth it for that. What a bizarre unit. The greater tragedy being how fantastic the banner model is...I want to run it just on looks but man, there is a level of garbage I just don't need in my lists and that banner is it.

 

I did forget to mention: I'd like a FAQ on Celestine so the unit didn't hand out max points for the Assassination secondary. Killing those Gemini should not give your opponent 3 points each time they do it.

They don't? I don't think I've ever even heard of a tournament that gives points for killing the geminae unless they're down at the end of the game. People in general complain that she gives 9 points for assassinate a lot, this is the first time I've seen someone claim they just kept giving assassinate.

 

There's no explicit FAQ for that but the general interaction of 'things that don't stay dead don't count as dead until they can't get back up anymore' has been the general precedent for all models with similar rules.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Blurf

[Bonzi]

Well that's better news. Just reread the secondary and I've always skim read the assassination points as being tallied at the end of each battle round rather than the end of the battle. That helps some but I would still argue that the Gemini shouldn't be worth 3 points each. Maybe the pair together should count as three but not each model in the unit.

[Bonzi]

Supposedly these are the leaked CA point changes for Sisters.

 

- Morvenn Vahl +15

- Novitiates +2.5

- Sacresants +2

- Paragon Warsuits -10 (per model)

- Exorcists -10

- Immolators -10

 

I feel like the Sacresants hike is the entire codex paying for the sins of Blood Rose. The Noviates change is a real head scratcher too...were they getting traction in Tournament meta lists that I don't know about? Why would I ever pay 10ppm for Noviates when I can have Sisters for 11?

Edited January 12, 2022 by Bonzi

[Blurf]

Supposedly these are the leaked CA point changes for Sisters.

 

- Morvenn Vahl +15

- Novitiates +2.5

- Sacresants +2

- Paragon Warsuits -10 (per model)

- Exorcists -10

- Immolators -10

 

I feel like the Sacresants hike is the entire codex paying for the sins of Blood Rose. The Noviates change is a real head scratcher too...were they getting traction in Tournament meta lists that I don't know about? Why would I ever pay 10ppm for Noviates when I can have Sisters for 11?

The novitiates make no sense, unless they get a new datasheet in the BR supplement they went from fringe to laughably terrible.

 

Sacresancts got hit too hard but they were seeing a lot of success in every build just for the bodyguard rule and the 2+4++.

 

The Paragon change is stupid. Their drop is entirely canceled out by the bump to Morvenn and Sacresancts.

 

The Exorcist and Immolator change is straight up insulting.

 

The exorcists

[Tokugawa]

This will make noviates from "Bloody rose may bring one or two squads" to "pure trash". Why???

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't know, it's before the general release of the kit as well, you would think they would want them to be pretty decent when it launches.

[Blurf]

I don't know, it's before the general release of the kit as well, you would think they would want them to be pretty decent when it launches.

The only thing, literally the ONLY thing I can think of is that they are getting a new datasheet in the BR supplement. Otherwise the idea of ever running them at 100pts is insanity.

[Bonzi]

 

 

I don't know, it's before the general release of the kit as well, you would think they would want them to be pretty decent when it launches.

The only thing, literally the ONLY thing I can think of is that they are getting a new datasheet in the BR supplement. Otherwise the idea of ever running them at 100pts is insanity.

I keep thinking there has to be some part of the picture of this that's missing too. The current data sheet makes no sense already with the autogun load out costing the same as the far superior CCW load out. I'm wondering if the new points don't reflect the flamer/crossbow being baked into the unit or maybe some of those mini characters in the kit will get rules they confer onto the unit in a new and updated data sheet? Otherwise a 20% point hike on a unit that was making zero waves in the meta and wasn't even being taken, let alone spammed in tournament placing lists makes close to zero sense. Edited January 13, 2022 by Bonzi

[Blurf]

(SATIRE)

 

Guys, I got the new leaks for the rest of the BR supplement!

 

There's only 1 warlord trait (the one they showed) but there's 2 new relics BR lists can choose from.

 

Chainsword of Faith or Fire or whatever: A chainsword replacement (same stats as a chainsword) that says: If this weapon inflicts 10 or more wounds to the same model; Once per game you can generate one additional miracle dice. The value of that dice is automatically set to '2'. This weapon replaces the chainsword of a Sister Superior in a Bloody Rose Battle Sister Squad.

 

Bolt Pistol of Faith or fire (whichever one we didn't use already): Replaces a Bolt pistol on a Bloody Rose Character model. S4 Ap0 Pistol 1: Once per game, spend one miracle dice of a value of 4 or greater: This weapon becomes rapid fire 1 for the rest of your shooting phase.

 

No additional stratagems but the Army of Renown is where the real fun is at.

 

Army of Faith or Fire (editors note: Find better name before release. Delete this note in final printing)

 

Army must be single detachment. Cannot include any unique characters. Characters cannot take blessings of the faithful. If you bring a Canoness, it cannot be your warlord.

 

You must take:

4 units of novitiates (note, this requirement does NOT supersede the datasheet rule that requires you to bring more battle sisters than novitiates).

3 Castigators

3 units of 10 model Celestian squads (The squads must each be equipped with exactly One storm bolter, one Ministorum heavy flamer, one Condemnor Boltgun, One chainword for the superior)

2 Units of Paragon war suits (must be equipped with Heavy Bolters)

2 Units of Dominions (must be equipped with 4 Ministorum Flamers and a Hand Flamer on the superior) This unit no longer benefits from the Vanguard special rule.

 

(Ignore the fact that the troop requirement of 8 units means it has to be a brigade and the unit requirement means it's impossible to fill out a brigade at 2000pts. Ignore it.)

 

Once you have taken all of these units the army gains the following benefit: Once per game, in your opponent's charge phase, you may reroll hit rolls of one during overwatch attacks!

 

I figured this was a healthier way to deal with my frustration at the CA changes than to keep arguing with people about it, lol.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Blurf

[EmperorGTank]

(SATIRE)

 

Guys, I got the new leaks for the rest of the BR supplement!

 

There's only 1 warlord trait (the one they showed) but there's 2 new relics BR lists can choose from.

 

Chainsword of Faith or Fire or whatever: A chainsword replacement (same stats as a chainsword) that says: If this weapon inflicts 10 or more wounds to the same model; Once per game you can generate one additional miracle dice. The value of that dice is automatically set to '2'. This weapon replaces the chainsword of a Sister Superior in a Bloody Rose Battle Sister Squad.

 

Bolt Pistol of Faith or fire (whichever one we didn't use already): Replaces a Bolt pistol on a Bloody Rose Character model. S4 Ap0 Pistol 1: Once per game, spend one miracle dice of a value of 4 or greater: This weapon becomes rapid fire 1 for the rest of your shooting phase.

 

No additional stratagems but the Army of Renown is where the real fun is at.

 

Army of Faith or Fire (editors note: Find better name before release. Delete this note in final printing)

 

Army must be single detachment. Cannot include any unique characters. Characters cannot take blessings of the faithful. If you bring a Canoness, it cannot be your warlord.

 

You must take:

4 units of novitiates (note, this requirement does NOT supersede the datasheet rule that requires you to bring more battle sisters than novitiates).

3 Castigators

3 units of 10 model Celestian squads (The squads must each be equipped with exactly One storm bolter, one Ministorum heavy flamer, one Condemnor Boltgun, One chainword for the superior)

2 Units of Paragon war suits (must be equipped with Heavy Bolters)

2 Units of Dominions (must be equipped with 4 Ministorum Flamers and a Hand Flamer on the superior) This unit no longer benefits from the Vanguard special rule.

 

(Ignore the fact that the troop requirement of 8 units means it has to be a brigade and the unit requirement means it's impossible to fill out a brigade at 2000pts. Ignore it.)

 

Once you have taken all of these units the army gains the following benefit: Once per game, in your opponent's charge phase, you may reroll hit rolls of one during overwatch attacks!

 

I figured this was a healthier way to deal with my frustration at the CA changes than to keep arguing with people about it, lol.

 

I appreciate the blatant satire here dude, and agree this is definitely a healthier way to deal with the frustration of arguingwith a bunch of others about the state of our rules and any changes, good or ill. 

 

From someone who has played our army for well over a decade at this point, I agree that we have been shafted by both old and new GW time and time again in many ways. From the destruction of the 8th index rules of double phase AoFs that were seen as causing negative play experiences (and I completely understand why) to that abhorrent beta codex they gave us in Chapter Approved that luckily our feedback helped prevent actually being written into the game as our codex at the end of 8th. Then when our 8th book DID finally come out, it was strong, definitely in the upper tier of the game, and it was such a breath of fresh air to actually be able to play the game on a level with everyone else, and even trounce weaker books. That's not to say it was perfect, but if there was any faction that deserved at least a few months in the sun it was us, and honestly we have definitely gotten our chance to shine finally, so I am grateful for that.

 

While the 9th edition codex is definitely a sidegrade/downgrade in terms of raw power as you said, its synergy and internal balance definitely make the faction more interesting, and there are still plenty of strong combos in there that I have found success with throughout the edition so far. As I have stated in multiple posts before, I hate the changes to the Exorcist (mostly because of its anti-tank capability being only AP -2, not the defensive changes though it should still at least be 12 wounds IMO as a former Front Armor 13 vehicle that was always superior to a Predator), and the Castigator should have had some kind of rule to make it either better than a glorified Predator or slightly worse than a Leman Russ. The Imagifier Tale of the Stoic change makes sense in terms of getting rid of the extra ignoring AP BUT makes 0 sense as it stands, it is utterly useless as we have already discussed. These and much else (overcosted Immolator) I take issue with in the new codex, but I love Vahl, the buffs to Celestine, the Sacresants, our litany/prayer system (though I wish I liked the Diaogus model better because I think the Dogmata is a little pricey at 65 and I don't love her model, just prefer it to the Dialogus), the ability to play MSU still or actually go horde in terms of shooty blobs of Sisters or our normal melee horde mode, and even the Warsuits, as meh as they are, are still really cool lorewise at least. I know many changes in the 9th book were just straight up bad, but many were also really good, cool, and enjoyable for Sisters and the game as a whole, so I guess what I am trying to say is, whatever happens in CA 2022, I don't think we are going to really drop lower than at least low to mid B tier even if without sub faction soup and the points changes we stray from being in the upper echelon as a low A tier army.

 

I guess that is my takeaway from all of this over the past 3-4 editions of this game. We have been straight up bad, unplayable, laughed at, and all around shunned by a good portion of the comunity for years because plastic Sisters were such a meme and nobody ever believed it would happen and even if it did, who would actually buy them right? Well through 8th and 9th edition all of the "haters" were proven wrong and now not only are we a somewhat strong and popular faction in game, we are even joining Space Marines as somewhat of a poster "girl" to their poster boy status. From where I am standing, even as bad as things might get for us for the rest of 9th due to any changes, it just doesn't look like we are ever going back in the "red headed stepchild/obscurity box" that GW put us in from about 1997-2019. While we may not stand among the A or S tier armies at some point soon, it doesn't look like we will ever be in the gutter like we were throughout 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th editions.

 

(For clarification, l mostly I played in 5th-7th and know that we actually were not absolutely horrible in those editions, we at least had a digital codex and rules and had some niche plays and matchups where we could actually be pretty strong. However, I also played with that 3rd edition book at the tail end of 4th and while the Witch Hunters book was fluffy and cool, outside of 3rd edition it really did not hold up well. I lost to almost every army besides Tau in 4th and 5th edition when I first got into the game for about a year and a half of playing, even after having a pretty good grasp of the rules). 

 

Anyway, TL:DR, all I am saying is, while it definitely always feels like GW has it out for us just when it seems like we finally have it made, I don't think Sisters of Battle as a faction will ever be as bad as they were at the lowest point of their history, because I played through that period and even when things seem annoying and sucky they are still better than how it was during our "dark age". Even if it DOES happen at some point, the constant updates of the game and our faction now will always offer hope that "this too shall pass." 

[Tokugawa]

Guided missiles with dedicated VERTICAL launching system = don't ignore los.

 

Throwing sqiugs to the air = ignore los.

 

hmmm…

[ThePenitentOne]

I know it's a half measure, but we DO have a strat to ignore LOS.

 

Some would even argue that this isn't a bad solution, since we don't have to pay points for always on ignore LOS? Not sure I'd agree- I would prefer "always on" and I do think it fits the fluff.

 

But last ed we didn't even have the strat. 

[EmperorGTank]

This is probably way too long as usual, but I just talk too much/ramble sorry. TL:DR the Exorcist is still one of my favorite tanks of all time and a big reason I play Sisters but boy GW frustrates me with all of the changes they keep making to it. Take the toughness, leave the wounds and just leave those anti-tank MELTA missiles at AP -3 please, AP -4 is too much for 3d3 shots sure, but come on AP -3 is pretty standard for missiles that are supposed to at least be BETTER than krak missiles (like the ones Vahl has in her suit).

 

Getting into it with all the changes to the Exorcist I think the 170 points it is hopefully going to in CA 2022 would be a fair price IF it retained at least its 12 wounds and the AP -3 on its anti-tank missiles. I am fine with the downgrade to T7 (though it would have made far more sense had the Castigator been T8), but its wounds charactersistic should have remained equal to that of a Leman Russ to show that it is almost as armored (2+ save would have been nice too but just the 12 wounds would have been okay in my book). The ignore LoS strat that it has is definitely an option that we never had before, and I would have loved if it had either gained a different ability or strat to reroll its number of shots (though with CP rerolls we kind of get that already right), but I definitely think 170 points would have been fair for the Exorcist statline as long as it retained its 12 wounds and AP -3 missiles. 

 

The way this tank currently is though, it needs to be around 125-135 with the anti-infantry missiles and 150 max with the anti-tank ones. Of course I would love if it had a built-in ignoring LoS ability, but as Penitent brought up the premium we would probably have to pay for that would make the tank almost 200 points again. For AP -2 missiles, it just would not be worth it. 

 

Also, and this is completely personal, I think a huge thing with me is that, as a guy who played mainly from 5th-7th I equate the new AP 0, -1, -2, -3, -4 system to the old AP 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 system.

 

Therefore, the Exorcist missiles should have always remained at LEAST AP -3 since they were AP 1 (the best AP at the time for anyone who may be unaware) right through the end of 7th edition.

 

When bolters went from AP 5 in 7th to AP 0 in 8th, that right there made me realize that GW had a chart that was something like...

AP 5/6/- in 7th---> AP 0 in 8th and 9th
AP 4 in 7th---> AP -1 in 8th and 9th

AP 3 in 7th---> AP -2 in 8th and 9th

AP 2 in 7th---> AP -3 in 8th and 9th

AP 1 in 7th---> AP -4 or more in 8th and 9th

 

If you look at certain weapons like Battle Cannons on Leman Russes it kind of works, they were AP 3 in 7th and they are AP -2 right now. I am well aware of the imperfection of that system and how not all of that is one to one (look at gauss weapons on Necrons that always used to be the same AP as bolters...) but that has always been how it made sense in my head and to see the Exorcist effectively go from AP 1 to AP 3 in the course of 2 books just feels like such disrespect to a tank that was once feared in 7th and even 6th for its ability to just one shot a vehicle (though yes with heavy d6 it could also do absolutely nothing). 

 

Anyway, I am happy to discuss this more, as many of you know by now I just REALLY enjoy the Exorcist, its one of the main reasons I even started playing Sisters, and I had my old metal ones for years before selling them to fund all my new plastic girls. I love its new reliability in number of shots, and I was so okay with it dropping to AP -3 in the 8th edition book because I understood, for more shots they all couldn't be AP -4, it was a tradeoff and I was completely on board with it. But GW took its toughness and wounds, the least they could have done was leave its missiles as just about as scary as they were 2 editions ago whenever they DID get through. I still have my two, and I bring at least one to almost every game I play because I love it so much and it does give me options in terms of versatility, but they have just done this tank SO dirty despite all the improvements to the datasheet that I do appreciate.

 

Some things GW gets SO right, and others they just get SO wrong, and when they have something SO right they just go a little too far and all of a sudden its right back to SO wrong and it is just so frustrating. 
 

Edited January 17, 2022 by EmperorGTank

[Tokugawa]

The missile racks have an exposed appearance, some gun accurately hit it, the vehicle will go boom. It is not a tank, but a self-propelled rocket vehicle, which should be compared with a manticore, not Leman Russ.

[Blurf]

The missile racks have an exposed appearance, some gun accurately hit it, the vehicle will go boom. It is not a tank, but a self-propelled rocket vehicle, which should be compared with a manticore, not Leman Russ.

That's not relevant to its rules at all.

 

Also, not gonna quote Emperor's whole wall of text, BUT currently the exorcist is in a worse spot than it was when it was D6 shots of D6 damage for 125pts. I really believe that at T7 with Devastating refrain being a TWO CP strat, there's no way to save the Exorcist currently. They could drop it all the way down to that old 125 and retributors would still probably be better.

 

Waiting on the next codex for usable tanks.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Blurf

[EmperorGTank]

The missile racks have an exposed appearance, some gun accurately hit it, the vehicle will go boom. It is not a tank, but a self-propelled rocket vehicle, which should be compared with a manticore, not Leman Russ.

 

I am in agreement that with the introduction of the Castigator, the Exorcist now resembles the Whirlwind/Manticore of our motorpool. However, prior to that occurring, in game it was really the only MBT we had in the army, though it performed more of an artillery support role in lore of course. 

 

 

 

The missile racks have an exposed appearance, some gun accurately hit it, the vehicle will go boom. It is not a tank, but a self-propelled rocket vehicle, which should be compared with a manticore, not Leman Russ.

That's not relevant to its rules at all.

 

Also, not gonna quote Emperor's whole wall of text, BUT currently the exorcist is in a worse spot than it was when it was D6 shots of D6 damage for 125pts. I really believe that at T7 with Devastating refrain being a TWO CP strat, there's no way to save the Exorcist currently. They could drop it all the way down to that old 125 and retributors would still probably be better.

 

Waiting on the next codex for usable tanks.

 

 

Blurf, at 125 points do you think the tank would be viable if it was still at least AP -3 on the big missiles and 12 wounds (with everything else remaining as it is)? Or would it only be okay if the strat went back to 1 CP for ignoring LoS? I know the game has just changed so much since early 8th, so it isn't completely about its rules and moreso about the state of the game around the tank. But I guess what I am asking is, what gets this thing over the hump, especially if, as you said, even a Castigator at 100 points might still not be worth it the way things currently are.

[Progenitor]

In general GW don't know how to do vehicles very well. It tends to switch from one edition to the next as to whether vehicles are all kinds of awesome and everyone takes them, then the next edition they're completely useless and they never appear in lists. 

[Blurf]

 

The missile racks have an exposed appearance, some gun accurately hit it, the vehicle will go boom. It is not a tank, but a self-propelled rocket vehicle, which should be compared with a manticore, not Leman Russ.

 

I am in agreement that with the introduction of the Castigator, the Exorcist now resembles the Whirlwind/Manticore of our motorpool. However, prior to that occurring, in game it was really the only MBT we had in the army, though it performed more of an artillery support role in lore of course. 

 

 

 

The missile racks have an exposed appearance, some gun accurately hit it, the vehicle will go boom. It is not a tank, but a self-propelled rocket vehicle, which should be compared with a manticore, not Leman Russ.

That's not relevant to its rules at all.

 

Also, not gonna quote Emperor's whole wall of text, BUT currently the exorcist is in a worse spot than it was when it was D6 shots of D6 damage for 125pts. I really believe that at T7 with Devastating refrain being a TWO CP strat, there's no way to save the Exorcist currently. They could drop it all the way down to that old 125 and retributors would still probably be better.

 

Waiting on the next codex for usable tanks.

 

 

Blurf, at 125 points do you think the tank would be viable if it was still at least AP -3 on the big missiles and 12 wounds (with everything else remaining as it is)? Or would it only be okay if the strat went back to 1 CP for ignoring LoS? I know the game has just changed so much since early 8th, so it isn't completely about its rules and moreso about the state of the game around the tank. But I guess what I am asking is, what gets this thing over the hump, especially if, as you said, even a Castigator at 100 points might still not be worth it the way things currently are.

 

It's the T7 and the 2CP strat that really screws it. You can't exist as a damage platform at T7 (at least in an imperial army) these days. If it was back to it's pre-nerf statline, it'd be...fine. It would still be a little bit too expensive but it would be functional for its purpose.

 

The strat at 2CP means that to actually shoot it every turn would likely take your ENTIRE CP store should it survive the whole battle. It also limits you to taking 1 per army.

 

If it stays at T7, then the indirect fire strat needs to drop to 1CP and the tank needs to be no more than 150pts and you would see 1 per army on a lot of tables just for the 'reach out and touch you' it offers. It wouldn't be particularly efficient, but it would fill a niche.

 

At 170pts and costing 2CP to fire its gun, it'll be Crusade only for the foreseeable future.

 

The Castigator can't be saved.