Long range threats: Tactics Talk

[Xenith]

So I've managed to get ~6-10 games in with my Thousand Sons, and am loving the army and tricks it can pull as I get more confident and actually remember to do things. 

 

One thing I do struggle with, though, is long range threats, things that want to stay at arms length, and outside the 12-18" psychic kill-zone that is the forte of the Thousand Sons. 

 

How are you dealing with these both in competitive and casual play?

 

I'm thinking rather specifically Plagueburst Crawlers (PBC's - which are probably way undercosted compared to wat TS can bring for the same points), but also relic cannon leman russes (flat 3 damage battlecannon), the impending tau Railgun, whirlwinds hitting our objective campers etc.

 

The obvious long range solution is the quad-las predator, however lascannons are too swingy, Leman Russes are now 2x as survivable against them, and they're outperformed by things like the TDA sorc as I describe here.

 

Other options might be a Hades Fiend (8 S8 AP-2 D2 shots) which will average 3 damage/turn to a leman russ and 2 damage/turn to a PBC. The triple ectofiend (~3D/turn vs a russ and ~2D vs a PBC).

 

On the other hand, 2x TDA sorcs deepstriking in using Doombolt+smite+malevolent, the other using maelstrom for another doombolt then a scroll smite gets you in the region 13 MW's for about 240pts+1CP+1CaP - roughly 6x the damage output of a triple ectofiend, and that's before they get to the combimeltas. 

 

Other options:

Lacannon+ML Hellbrute

2xTLLC Contemptor

other FW tank options like Vindicator Laser Destroyer

 

Rapier Carriers

These seem to have some legs with TS - they gain the ARCANA ASTARTES rule for a 5++, then 110 pts get you either the laser destroyer for 3x S10 D3+3 shots or 4 S8 D3 shots with the option for barrage. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Xenith

[WarriorFish]

I wouldn't consider Sorcerers long range, at least outside of one shot missile terms Though you could pull some shenanigans to move them again it's an investment better saved for more nuanced moves and important characters etc I think. I'm leaning towards full shooting Helbrutes, which says a lot as I advocate for combat/shooting builds elsewhere... Got to take whatever you can get.

 

My Contemptor I'm not sure about, I'll see when I get there as other things need doing first, but it sums up a lot of my thoughts. I know it's going to be a problem to solve but options feel light.

[Jorgend Lupus]

Rapiers are very tempting, but I'm afraid they would be too fragile for their price, so I'd rather try some real vehicule :

Helbrutes are good with TS, double las/missile launcher work pretty good for a decent price, otherwise the Forgeworld Vindicator or Sicarians can be great for TS, but are more pricey...

 

Prsonnaly, I went for double Helbrute and it works pretty well ; easy to hide, and they are Core 

[Ahzek451]

I have been bouncing back and forth for awhile on the long ranged support model, and at the end of the day our toolbag is mediocre and kind of "samey" as far as overall defense, utility, and damage output. We are in desperate need of some new Thousand Sons specific warmachines, but in the meantime I personally choose to abandon the need for ranged support and just focus on flooding the board with scarabs and rubricae. 

 

I also realise that the choice to do so is heavily dependent on your board setup. My group pretty much plays by the GW Grand tournament ruleset which means lots of line of sight blocking area terrain with narrow gaps(if any). So anything that is a monster/vehicle that can't fly has a hard time maneuvering around to get LOS since they cannot go through walls. My defiler is frustrated in these settings as it cannot burst through walls like the cool-aide man and it's kinda silly. It completely rewards infantry and armies that can fly. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Ahzek451

[Tichinde]

+1 for the hades forge fiend. tried one out against a competitive Space Wolf list, did good work against a pair of redemptors and absolutely slaughtered a wolf guard squad firing into close combat.

 

I quite fancy trying the rapier option and Contemptors are pretty solid (might switch to hellbrutes if the inevitable points increase materialises)

 

same battle I also tried out a TDA sorc with combi-melta and incandeum staff who did quite well dealing with some backfield threats. buff to taste.

[INKS]

DG are kinda bad into us, so we just generally ignore PBC. If you have to deal with things like Magerea's for example, then you have to hide via terrain as best you can and try and take them out with terminators in one shot.

[Xenith]

I wouldn't consider Sorcerers long range, at least outside of one shot missile terms

 

I mean more Longrange threats to the Thousand Sons, which, to be fair, is probably anything that can shoot disctances over 24" or 36" depending what you've taken! 

 

+1 for the hades forge fiend. tried one out against a competitive Space Wolf list, did good work against a pair of redemptors and absolutely slaughtered a wolf guard squad firing into close combat.

 

I'm surprised to hear this, were you buffing them with anything? With the dreads inbuilt -1D, your hades fiend is half as effective - you're looking at 3W/turn if you're lucky, so 3 turns to bracket one of them. 

 

On another note, I had a game against orks last night - for the firsttime I used a relic contemptor with a single volkite, and man it put in work. Against orks, it's optimal target, for sure, but just being able to reach out and touch things 45" away reliably was great. Definitely going to try out the dual volkite version. Doesn't help solve our anti tank issues, though. 

[Tokugawa]

Usually dreadnought targets could be left for your bolters. If you can successfully buff the wound rolls to 4+, terminators chew them super fast. Edited January 13, 2022 by Tokugawa

[Karhedron]

The risk with using sorcerers to deal with long range threats is that there are a lot of moving parts (one miscast early on could be a real set-back) and it is quite hungry on CPs. Not saying you should never use it. If the situation warrants then 13 MWs is a lot of hurt to put on a key unit but you will likely only be able to pull it off once per game.

 

I am always hesitant to recommend FW as my gaming group has long memories and it has a strong "pau-to-play" association in my area. I think Predators are overpriced so I will come down firmly in favour of Hellbrutes. Las/ML or MM/Fist look like the best combos to me. As well as decent firepower, they combine a 5++ with the -1 Damage rule meaning they will be a pain for your opponent to shift and are cheap enough that you can field a couple of them without breaking the bank. The MM/Fist version can also hit solidly in melee which can be useful for backing up Rubrics in the midfield.

 

I want to like Forgefiends and I think the Ectoplasma version has some mileage but not so much against the targets you are outlining. The Cannons are low on AP for dealing with tanks and the Ectoplasma struggles vs T8.

[Tichinde]

 

I wouldn't consider Sorcerers long range, at least outside of one shot missile terms

 

I mean more Longrange threats to the Thousand Sons, which, to be fair, is probably anything that can shoot disctances over 24" or 36" depending what you've taken! 

 

+1 for the hades forge fiend. tried one out against a competitive Space Wolf list, did good work against a pair of redemptors and absolutely slaughtered a wolf guard squad firing into close combat.

 

I'm surprised to hear this, were you buffing them with anything? With the dreads inbuilt -1D, your hades fiend is half as effective - you're looking at 3W/turn if you're lucky, so 3 turns to bracket one of them. 

 

On another note, I had a game against orks last night - for the firsttime I used a relic contemptor with a single volkite, and man it put in work. Against orks, it's optimal target, for sure, but just being able to reach out and touch things 45" away reliably was great. Definitely going to try out the dual volkite version. Doesn't help solve our anti tank issues, though. 

 

 

Its more volume of fire at a decent strength but I agree, the damage is lacking. I think it was more of a "take some Mortal wounds in the psychic phase then here are 8 str 8 shots to follow up in the shooting phase" scenario.

 

Volkites are ridiculous. keep them within sight of an infernal master with the +1 strength pact and then you can use ensorcolled infusion to buff the AP and/or increase the range with empyric guidance. (could also be used on forgefiend cannons I guess)

 

I've been finding that low damage high volume of shots are working better at longer ranges than relying on lascannons for anti-tank. I am also tempted to try out some summoned Screamers or exalted flamers but without the daemon stratagem support they may not be as good for anti-tank.

 

I do think Hellbrutes will start to be used more if they do hike up the points on the contemptors.

[Lucky_Lee]

Dreads and daemon engines are cool and all but when I was planning my TSons I wanted some tanks! So here's what I did.

For long range fire support, I purchased 2x predator destructors and a FW chaos fire raptor. I rarely field all 3, usually it's pred x2 or raptor. Sometimes 1 and 1.

I run the preds as Autocannon + Heavy Bolters + Havok Launcher + ICB. The raptor is Las/Quad-Heavy Bolters.

How I use them depends on the matchup but more so with the Raptor.
Preds are almost always screened by infantry and used as a blunt force fire platform to force my opponents infantry into engaging mine. My preds don't really tank hunt, If I can't weather my opponents long range fire I usually try to gum it up goats or draw it in for MW spam with Perplex. (I just strat the spell into the unit closest to the target.) Against PBCs specifically I've had my best successes just ignoring them and killing the DG Obsec. 1 obsec goat > 10 blightlords in the command phase.

The raptor will start on the table depending on my opponents ability to attack it on turn one. If I feel the risk is too great I'll slide it into reserve and have it come in on turn two. Cult of Knowledge works well to get some good anti-armor punch with those lascannons.
The 32 D2 shots and 4 D6, all with high str and rerolls of 1 to wound, is pretty dangerous.

Even more so if the raptor/Pred is buffed and parked in your backfield next to an Infernal Master and Exalted Sorcerer. Then pop the armor pen strat and watch your predator or raptor blast away! Protip: If your raptor needs to be mobile it helps to have an Exalted sorc with prism to cast glam/weaver/presage w/36" range!

Lately I've been casting an eye at buying 3 vindicators. The 2+/5++ with T8 and the demolisher cannon!

Edited January 18, 2022 by Xenoscry