If the imperium split which chapters would go to which side?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I feel like a set up for a massive schism in the imperium is being set up.

It’s looking like a possible split featuring the church and high lords against guilliman may happen.

 

If such a split occurred what side do you think each chapter would take?

[Subtleknife]

I dont think a split will happen and I personally think it would be rather a stupid plot point to expand on with how precarious the imperium is atm. Personally I feel there are better parts of the story to explore.

 

As to answer your question though....definitely papa smurf.

[Noctus Cornix]

I remember dreaming of this being a thing as soon as Belisarius Cawl reared his stupid, ugly face and brought Guilliman and the Primaris with him. Any basic logic applied to the political situation of the Imperium would have recognized how utterly insane this whole thing was and how hilariously improbable it was for the Imperium to not tear itself apart over this heaping helping of insanity and heresy. 

 

The High Lords of Terra wouldn't accept this. The Mechanicum wouldn't accept this. And virtually no Astartes outside of maybe some of Guilliman's sons would have accepted this. 

 

But they did anyway and GW tied it all up in a nice bow by sweeping everything under the rug. Hexarchy Incident? Could've been really interesting, but they just conveniently killed off all of the nay-sayers in an instant, leaving Guilliman without an obstacle among the High Lords of Terra. The Astartes? Oh, well, the Custodes helped deliver the Primaris stuff to a lot of the Chapters and virtually no one is going to tell them no. Hell, even the Black Templars, the Chapter with the biggest reason to give Guilliman a giant middle finger, has accepted it with no repercussion. 

 

I'll be honest, I don't really see what you're seeing. Every single opportunity that has been set up for a massive civil war and strife in the Imperium (and rightly so) has been addressed and demolished in a heartbeat.

 

I wouldn't expect it to happen, buddy. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Noctus Cornix

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I remember dreaming of this being a thing as soon as Belisarius Cawl reared his stupid, ugly face and brought Guilliman and the Primaris with him. Any basic logic applied to the political situation of the Imperium would have recognized how utterly insane this whole thing was and how hilariously improbable it was for the Imperium to not tear itself apart over this heaping helping of insanity and heresy.

 

The High Lords of Terra wouldn't accept this. The Mechanicum wouldn't accept this. And virtually no Astartes outside of maybe some of Guilliman's sons would have accepted this.

 

But they did anyway and GW tied it all up in a nice bow by sweeping everything under the rug. Hexarchy Incident? Could've been really interesting, but they just conveniently killed off all of the nay-sayers in an instant, leaving Guilliman without an obstacle among the High Lords of Terra. The Astartes? Oh, well, the Custodes helped deliver the Primaris stuff to a lot of the Chapters and virtually no one is going to tell them no. Hell, even the Black Templars, the Chapter with the biggest reason to give Guilliman a giant middle finger, has accepted it with no repercussion.

 

I'll be honest, I don't really see what you're seeing. Every single opportunity that has been set up for a massive civil war and strife in the Imperium (and rightly so) has been addressed and demolished in a heartbeat.

 

I wouldn't expect it to happen, buddy.

imperium nihilus, and references to the history of imperium secundus seems a potential for a split.

Secudnus becoming known to the high lords could easily be twisted as another heresy, and they could then point to his appointment of Dante as regent and creation of imperium nihilus as another attempt to set up his own empire, and to rule in the emperor’s place, rather than ruling for the emperor

[lansalt]

Yeah, about that...

In the last Dark Imperium novel, Godblight, there's a cliffhanger about Nurgle daemons trying to make public a censured book about Imperium Secundus that Guilliman really doesn't want anyone to find about, not even his own historitors.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Yeah, about that...

In the last Dark Imperium novel, Godblight, there's a cliffhanger about Nurgle daemons trying to make public a censured book about Imperium Secundus that Guilliman really doesn't want anyone to find about, not even his own historitors.

yep and that could definitely cause a massive rift.

 

But the question is, which chapters would take which side?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Space wolves have their hands full with Orks and honestly if they had to choose between the church and guilliman they'd probably go on another Hunt for Russ. Nids have BA on lockdown and even if they wanted help Guilliman they would have to pass through the rift. White Scars are fighting for survival against the red corsairs (who invaded them), Ravenguard are dueling with Tau. Dark Angels I'm not too familiar with but were part of the Guilliman's plan B. Salamanders would probably stay out of it. Iron hands don't really like anyone and would side with Mars (and let's be honest Cawl basically bought them with new tech). Ultras would obviously follow Guilliman. So really the only wild card is Imperial Fists and I don't know if they'd care that Guilliman had a plan b with the legions that he knew were alive during the HH. If it did happen it would be an entirely one sided conflict once you factored in the Ultima Foundings and torch bearer fleets.  

 

I can see where evidence would hurt Guilliman but I can't imagine a fullblown civil war until they've killed off Chaos, Crons, Orks, and Nids. So basically, to see it the setting has to be over or at the very least drastically rewritten in a way that would piss off a lot of the player base. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

So I don't think they will do a split, but if it's High Lords/Ecclesiarchy vs Guilliman, I think most chapters will side with Guilliman.

 

However, saying that I don't think it will happen isn't overly productive to your thought or to this conversation.

 

My take, were this to happen for some reason is as follows.

 

The Space Wolves, Dark Angels (and Successors) and Blood Angels (and Successors) I can hardly see siding with the High Lords. The Space Wolves outright despise them after Armageddon and the Fenris warzone. The Dark Angels have never liked them, and have always been impeded (inability to get Successors commissioned, constant accusations of Legion building, etc.), and so have a very practical reason to not support them. The Blood Angels, spearheading Imperium Nihilus, are essentially acting outside their jurisdiction at this point, as there can't be any practical way for them to try to rule or affect anything happening on that side of the rift.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If the right Primarch comes back, you have a good trigger event for a split -- namely the Lion. There was enough bad blood in the Heresy over Imperium Secundus between him and G-man that combined with Lion's arrogance I can see him splitting from Guilliman.

[Shinespider]

I think in a potential full-blown civil war scenario, I don't see chapters splitting down the middle. Rather, I see one faction taking most of the chapters, aside from a handful of contrarians, and the other side have very few space marines but most of the Non-Astartes forces.

 

So in your "Church vs Guilliman" scenario, nearly every chapter would side with Guilleman, with maybe just a few hardcore Inquisition loyalists like the Red Hunters siding with the Church.

 

Many groups, like the Deathwatch, would probably remain neutral. They have more important things to deal with. 

[Scribe]

I remember dreaming of this being a thing as soon as Belisarius Cawl reared his stupid, ugly face and brought Guilliman and the Primaris with him. Any basic logic applied to the political situation of the Imperium would have recognized how utterly insane this whole thing was and how hilariously improbable it was for the Imperium to not tear itself apart over this heaping helping of insanity and heresy. 

 

The High Lords of Terra wouldn't accept this. The Mechanicum wouldn't accept this. And virtually no Astartes outside of maybe some of Guilliman's sons would have accepted this. 

 

But they did anyway and GW tied it all up in a nice bow by sweeping everything under the rug. Hexarchy Incident? Could've been really interesting, but they just conveniently killed off all of the nay-sayers in an instant, leaving Guilliman without an obstacle among the High Lords of Terra. The Astartes? Oh, well, the Custodes helped deliver the Primaris stuff to a lot of the Chapters and virtually no one is going to tell them no. Hell, even the Black Templars, the Chapter with the biggest reason to give Guilliman a giant middle finger, has accepted it with no repercussion. 

 

I'll be honest, I don't really see what you're seeing. Every single opportunity that has been set up for a massive civil war and strife in the Imperium (and rightly so) has been addressed and demolished in a heartbeat.

 

I wouldn't expect it to happen, buddy. 

 

Someone needs to write this into a novel.

 

A million times better than what we have been served up so far.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

I remember dreaming of this being a thing as soon as Belisarius Cawl reared his stupid, ugly face and brought Guilliman and the Primaris with him. Any basic logic applied to the political situation of the Imperium would have recognized how utterly insane this whole thing was and how hilariously improbable it was for the Imperium to not tear itself apart over this heaping helping of insanity and heresy. 

 

The High Lords of Terra wouldn't accept this. The Mechanicum wouldn't accept this. And virtually no Astartes outside of maybe some of Guilliman's sons would have accepted this. 

 

But they did anyway and GW tied it all up in a nice bow by sweeping everything under the rug. Hexarchy Incident? Could've been really interesting, but they just conveniently killed off all of the nay-sayers in an instant, leaving Guilliman without an obstacle among the High Lords of Terra. The Astartes? Oh, well, the Custodes helped deliver the Primaris stuff to a lot of the Chapters and virtually no one is going to tell them no. Hell, even the Black Templars, the Chapter with the biggest reason to give Guilliman a giant middle finger, has accepted it with no repercussion. 

 

I'll be honest, I don't really see what you're seeing. Every single opportunity that has been set up for a massive civil war and strife in the Imperium (and rightly so) has been addressed and demolished in a heartbeat.

 

I wouldn't expect it to happen, buddy. 

 

Someone needs to write this into a novel.

 

A million times better than what we have been served up so far.

 

Yeah, it's how I would have written it, too.

[Gamiel]

Hell, even the Black Templars, the Chapter with the biggest reason to give Guilliman a giant middle finger, has accepted it with no repercussion. 

Why would the BT give him the middle finger? Any dislike Sigismund would have for Guilliman is nine millennia ago and the 40k BT have never been described as disliking Guilliman or the Ultramarines, Templars was part of Guilliman's guards on his way to Terra. There is also the fact the Guilliman is a Loyal Primarch, the only known living one, and the BT see the Primarchs as demi-gods, why should they give the son of god (who is carrying god's flaming sword and fighting for god's imperium) the middle finger?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

Hell, even the Black Templars, the Chapter with the biggest reason to give Guilliman a giant middle finger, has accepted it with no repercussion.

Why would the BT give him the middle finger? Any dislike Sigismund would have for Guilliman is nine millennia ago and the 40k BT have never been described as disliking Guilliman or the Ultramarines, Templars was part of Guilliman's guards on his way to Terra. There is also the fact the Guilliman is a Loyal Primarch, the only known living one, and the BT see the Primarchs as demi-gods, why should they give the son of god (who is carrying god's flaming sword and fighting for god's imperium) the middle finger?

I think people sometimes confuse the real life dislike of Ultramarines because of the way GW uses them, with an in universe dislike, which largely isn't there. The Space Wolves had a greater dislike of the UM than any Templar I've ever seen in print.

Some people argue that the Templars' spurning of the Codex is a sign of their dislike for us author and biggest fans, but it's more that they just didn't like the methods, the only real discussion on the Codex by a Templar is Grimaldus in Blood and Fire giving it a largely positive review.

[Tokugawa]

Come on, which customer wanna pay for a marine vs bureaucratism story?

 

If there is a new civil war episode, it must be marine vs marine! Awaken Lion seems a perfect "antagonist".

[Orange Knight]

I feel that at this point, anyone who opposes the rule of Guilliman is a Heretic who wants to serve humanity up to Chaos.

 

 

The Primarchs are these genius-level commanders who perceive things beyond a regular human. The Imperium is recovering from a catastrophe that has plunged half of it's territory into no-mans land, and their resources, wealth and military capabilities are lost or damaged, possibly beyond repair.

If the Lion, or any other Primarch was to return, they would immediately rally to Guilliman's side. Any other course of action, such as diverting military or political forces to act as a foil, or instigating a conflict within the Imperium itself, would be an act of Heresy (or sheer stupidity) that only benefits the enemies of mankind.

 

As for opposition from other elements, it would be impotent at best. Guilliman is a religious icon. Ten-thousand years of worshipping the Emperor, and now one of his greatest sons has returned. He need only ask it, and the people will tear down anyone that opposes him.

I don't know if the Black Libary books are widely read across the forum, but elements have already tried to foil Guilliman in various well-written stories, and have been utterly un-successful to the point of it being near-comical.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The Watchers of the Throne series is worth a read in this regard.

[Orange Knight]

The Watchers of the Throne series is worth a read in this regard.

Yes, I finished it not that long ago. Very much a recommendation!

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't think Jonson would immediately start a Civil War, especially considering his last memories were just of that on Caliban and the Heresy/Early Scouring. He'd be more out of place than even Guilliman was when he awoke, it would take a while to even catalogue what's going on.

 

What would he accomplish? The Imperium is 10,000 years different than he remembers.

[phandaal]

Come on, which customer wanna pay for a marine vs bureaucratism story?

 

If there is a new civil war episode, it must be marine vs marine! Awaken Lion seems a perfect "antagonist".

 

Hard pass. It is already tiresome enough seeing "lol heretics" for Dark Angels everywhere.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I was thinking about this topic more, and my main take away is that it shows how bad of a job GW has done of making Chaos a threat. The imperium is already involved in a civil war has been since Horus dropped the ball. Why does there need to be another schism within the Imperium? The clear answer is that DG, WE, NL, AL, BL, TS, WB, EC, IW, and all the traitor warbands are just a joke. To be fair 8 of the 10 are down a wound compared to everyone else.

 

 So, I guess my question is would people rather have them be viewed as threat or is the ideal of another HH style civil war more attractive to people?

[WrathOfTheLion]

Come on, which customer wanna pay for a marine vs bureaucratism story?

 

If there is a new civil war episode, it must be marine vs marine! Awaken Lion seems a perfect "antagonist".

They could revive Sigismund and make him the perfect antagonist leading a Black Templar civil war.

 

But my guess is that wouldn't go over well with people that play that, which is also why no DA player wants that to happen with Jonson.

 

 

 So, I guess my question is would people rather have them be viewed as threat or is the ideal of another HH style civil war more attractive to people?

Make Chaos more of a threat. They have no lack of antagonists and threats, but need to do a better job on making them less toothless.

Edited January 13, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Orange Knight]

 

 

Come on, which customer wanna pay for a marine vs bureaucratism story?

 

If there is a new civil war episode, it must be marine vs marine! Awaken Lion seems a perfect "antagonist".

They could revive Sigismund and make him the perfect antagonist leading a Black Templar civil war.

 

But my guess is that wouldn't go over well with people that play that, which is also why no DA player wants that to happen with Jonson.

It would simply make him a Heretic as he is making the Imperium weaker. There need to be a clear and obvious reason presented to the observer (ourselves) that would drive these decisions, for them to have any weight or support.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

Come on, which customer wanna pay for a marine vs bureaucratism story?

 

If there is a new civil war episode, it must be marine vs marine! Awaken Lion seems a perfect "antagonist".

 

Hard pass. It is already tiresome enough seeing "lol heretics" for Dark Angels everywhere.

 

 

 

Well they did legit board and destroy a Black Templars Strike Cruiser so...

[phandaal]

 

 

Come on, which customer wanna pay for a marine vs bureaucratism story?

 

If there is a new civil war episode, it must be marine vs marine! Awaken Lion seems a perfect "antagonist".

 

Hard pass. It is already tiresome enough seeing "lol heretics" for Dark Angels everywhere.

 

 

 

Well they did legit board and destroy a Black Templars Strike Cruiser so...

 

 

Yeah, I know what GW wrote.

 

Does not make me want The Lion as some kind of Horus proxy in 40k.