If the imperium split which chapters would go to which side?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I feel that at this point, anyone who opposes the rule of Guilliman is a Heretic who wants to serve humanity up to Chaos.

 

 

The Primarchs are these genius-level commanders who perceive things beyond a regular human. The Imperium is recovering from a catastrophe that has plunged half of it's territory into no-mans land, and their resources, wealth and military capabilities are lost or damaged, possibly beyond repair.

If the Lion, or any other Primarch was to return, they would immediately rally to Guilliman's side. Any other course of action, such as diverting military or political forces to act as a foil, or instigating a conflict within the Imperium itself, would be an act of Heresy (or sheer stupidity) that only benefits the enemies of mankind.

 

As for opposition from other elements, it would be impotent at best. Guilliman is a religious icon. Ten-thousand years of worshipping the Emperor, and now one of his greatest sons has returned. He need only ask it, and the people will tear down anyone that opposes him.

I don't know if the Black Libary books are widely read across the forum, but elements have already tried to foil Guilliman in various well-written stories, and have been utterly un-successful to the point of it being near-comical.

anyone except the church

You make it out as if guilliman is completely untouchable. If he let something slip about the emperor not being a god, the church would almost certainly go to war against him.

 

also the attempts against guilliman have been traditional political attempts.

Now imagine those same forces had evidence of something that could be called heresy, and then point to something guilliman is actively doing that mirrors that heresy…

Edited January 13, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Rik Lightstar]

Pretty much nobody in any position of power or influence in the 40k setting has got there without overwhelming degrees of self-interest, self-preservation and pragmatism.

 

They're going to attach themselves immediately to whoever they believe is most likely to be successful, protect them and bring them personally more power.

 

Short of the Big E himself getting up after the longest siesta ever Guilliman is the strongest single power in the Imperium.

 

Rik

[Dracos]

I dont think a split will happen and I personally think it would be rather a stupid plot point to expand on with how precarious the imperium is atm. Personally I feel there are better parts of the story to explore.

Plot point? Hell it’s right out of real life. We just need to look to Eastern Europe and Central Asia for the Imperium players and Russia as Abaddon and the Black Legions.

 

Or more historically all of Europe and the Church RG as Charlemagne?

[Dracos]

Well they did legit board and destroy a Black Templars Strike Cruiser so...

So we’re going with the “They started it.” ? lol

 

To be fair … the BT have committed enough atrocities in the name of “Burn the Heretic”, they should have been hunted down as domestic terrorist millennia ago ;)

[Subtleknife]

 

I dont think a split will happen and I personally think it would be rather a stupid plot point to expand on with how precarious the imperium is atm. Personally I feel there are better parts of the story to explore.

Plot point? Hell it’s right out of real life. We just need to look to Eastern Europe and Central Asia for the Imperium players and Russia as Abaddon and the Black Legions.

 

Or more historically all of Europe and the Church RG as Charlemagne?

No it is a plot point. I dont really want to discuss IRL either as I dont think its on topic. Edited January 13, 2022 by Subtleknife

[Dracos]

No, your point was it was a stupid plot point. Mine was, if it can find real life current or historical similarity, even if overly dramatically so, then I fail to see how it is stupid. At least without something other than stating a simplistic opinion of “Personally I feel there are better parts of the story to explore.” I would think a storyline based on “how precarious the imperium is atm” would be a story if intrigue and war, could be nothing but exciting with the proper authors. Edited January 13, 2022 by Dracos

[Subtleknife]

No, it is a plot point and in my opinion a stupid one.

 

Your real life example is like comparing apples to oranges. They might both be fruit but that is where the similarities stop. I'm not going to touch on why as it strays into IRL politics which is not what I'm here to discuss. I think it is best just to leave this as agree to disagree as it really isnt on topic imo. As such I will not be responding further on this issue.

[WARMASTER_]

I feel like a set up for a massive schism in the imperium is being set up.

It’s looking like a possible split featuring the church and high lords against guilliman may happen.

 

If such a split occurred what side do you think each chapter would take?

I’m curious as to where you think the massive schism will come from? Guilliman to the Ecclesiarchy is an avatar of a living god! And not just a god “THE” god [He even carry’s said god burning sword]

 

The High Lords in are also now very much in Guillimans court after the Hexarchy crisis eliminated its recidivist members to the new regime… Guilliman even appointment the High Ecclesiarch himself

 

As for Astartes chapters siding against Guilliman…. I’d put it to you, Why? As I’ve said above I don’t see where the schism comes from?? but if it did he’s literally the son of the living god to the masses of the imperium and the more religious chapters (Of which given there isn’t that many) and to the chapters who simply venerate the Emperor Guilliman is still his last son I can see Zero chapters siding with the “Mortal bureaucrats” of Terra

 

Also as other have suggested the Lion returning and starting a civil war is ridiculous and doesn’t fit into any lore vision of the lion I’ve ever read, Loyalty and duty is the main focus for the lion his only goal would be to secure the imperium as I’m sure Guilliman would again appoint him “lord protector” why would the lion possibly side with the ecclesiarchy? An organisation he would see as at best miss guided but more probably heretical after he lived his life bringing the imperial truth to the galaxy

[phandaal]

 

Also as other have suggested the Lion returning and starting a civil war is ridiculous and doesn’t fit into any lore vision of the lion I’ve ever read, Loyalty and duty is the main focus for the lion his only goal would be to secure the imperium as I’m sure Guilliman would again appoint him “lord protector” why would the lion possibly side with the ecclesiarchy? An organisation he would see as at best miss guided but more probably heretical after he lived his life bringing the imperial truth to the galaxy

 

 

The Lion thing is due to people knowing a few "look how secret and mean the Dark Angels are" lore blunders and nothing else.

 

The Lion is fully on the side of his loyalist brothers, even Leman Russ, and 100% devoted to the Emperor.

 

Dark Angels themselves are tested at every turn by their superiors to ensure there is never a repeat of the Fallen.

[Dracos]

Could be even a Primarch changes after 10,000 years. Maybe they Warp changes Russ or Corax, maybe the Church is infiltrated by Alpharius? The genesis of the story could be one of many things. The question was though “if it did happen how do we see the new split going?”

[WARMASTER_]

Could be even a Primarch changes after 10,000 years. Maybe they Warp changes Russ or Corax, maybe the Church is infiltrated by Alpharius? The genesis of the story could be one of many things. The question was though “if it did happen how do we see the new split going?”

Again the issue with this question it’s way to expensive and simplifying to the lore… question gives no real indication over who would betray who… if it’s the church then it would be certain factions again of a Primarch was warp corrupted other factions would be involved, it’s like asking how long is a piece of string without any knowledge of its length, if we don’t know the faction that sparks civil war how could we guess who’s involved on either side, 40K has a Byzantine structure of overlapping loyalties and hatred’s to contend with

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Could be even a Primarch changes after 10,000 years. Maybe they Warp changes Russ or Corax, maybe the Church is infiltrated by Alpharius? The genesis of the story could be one of many things. The question was though “if it did happen how do we see the new split going?”

Again the issue with this question it’s way to expensive and simplifying to the lore… question gives no real indication over who would betray who… if it’s the church then it would be certain factions again of a Primarch was warp corrupted other factions would be involved, it’s like asking how long is a piece of string without any knowledge of its length, if we don’t know the faction that sparks civil war how could we guess who’s involved on either side, 40K has a Byzantine structure of overlapping loyalties and hatred’s to contend with

 

 

This is a really valid point. Take space wolves they call Guilliman the legion breaker, they've also been invaded by the church. I'm not sure they'd want to help either side, and I don't think they dislike certain chapters enough to pick a side based on it. You'd have to put in more ground work to get them to oppose Guilliman. I think this applies for most chapters.

 

If there is schism not only does it have to make sense, but it has to be worth ignoring a large section of fanbase (and possibly alienating some players who don't like what their chapter does). I can only imagine the complaining that would rightfully be unleashed on them if they supported a civil war story line that only really effected one fraction. I just don't see how they could win.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I feel like a set up for a massive schism in the imperium is being set up.

It’s looking like a possible split featuring the church and high lords against guilliman may happen.

 

If such a split occurred what side do you think each chapter would take?

I’m curious as to where you think the massive schism will come from? Guilliman to the Ecclesiarchy is an avatar of a living god! And not just a god “THE” god [He even carry’s said god burning sword]

 

The High Lords in are also now very much in Guillimans court after the Hexarchy crisis eliminated its recidivist members to the new regime… Guilliman even appointment the High Ecclesiarch himself

 

As for Astartes chapters siding against Guilliman…. I’d put it to you, Why? As I’ve said above I don’t see where the schism comes from?? but if it did he’s literally the son of the living god to the masses of the imperium and the more religious chapters (Of which given there isn’t that many) and to the chapters who simply venerate the Emperor Guilliman is still his last son I can see Zero chapters siding with the “Mortal bureaucrats” of Terra

 

Also as other have suggested the Lion returning and starting a civil war is ridiculous and doesn’t fit into any lore vision of the lion I’ve ever read, Loyalty and duty is the main focus for the lion his only goal would be to secure the imperium as I’m sure Guilliman would again appoint him “lord protector” why would the lion possibly side with the ecclesiarchy? An organisation he would see as at best miss guided but more probably heretical after he lived his life bringing the imperial truth to the galaxy

guilliman does not revere the emperor as a god, that and the revelation about imperium secundus combined with imperium nihilus, would be plenty of reason for a schism at the highest levels of the imperium

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

I feel like a set up for a massive schism in the imperium is being set up.

It’s looking like a possible split featuring the church and high lords against guilliman may happen.

 

If such a split occurred what side do you think each chapter would take?

I’m curious as to where you think the massive schism will come from? Guilliman to the Ecclesiarchy is an avatar of a living god! And not just a god “THE” god [He even carry’s said god burning sword]

 

The High Lords in are also now very much in Guillimans court after the Hexarchy crisis eliminated its recidivist members to the new regime… Guilliman even appointment the High Ecclesiarch himself

 

As for Astartes chapters siding against Guilliman…. I’d put it to you, Why? As I’ve said above I don’t see where the schism comes from?? but if it did he’s literally the son of the living god to the masses of the imperium and the more religious chapters (Of which given there isn’t that many) and to the chapters who simply venerate the Emperor Guilliman is still his last son I can see Zero chapters siding with the “Mortal bureaucrats” of Terra

 

Also as other have suggested the Lion returning and starting a civil war is ridiculous and doesn’t fit into any lore vision of the lion I’ve ever read, Loyalty and duty is the main focus for the lion his only goal would be to secure the imperium as I’m sure Guilliman would again appoint him “lord protector” why would the lion possibly side with the ecclesiarchy? An organisation he would see as at best miss guided but more probably heretical after he lived his life bringing the imperial truth to the galaxy

guilliman does not revere the emperor as a god, that and the revelation about imperium secundus combined with imperium nihilus, would be plenty of reason for a schism at the highest levels of the imperium

Would it though? The High Lords again were appointed by Guilliman now what 100 years ago in timeline? including the Ecclesiarch … Most space marine chapters I don’t think the Emperor is a god that’s never made the church target them? So I don’t really see your point? Guilliman thinks they’re misguided for believing the Emperor is a God, he only sees the sad irony that believing he’s a god sparked the HH in the first place but he’s also a political animal and the imperium is only just about holding together from outside threats, there’s literally no resources or time to take on the what 9? millennia spanning rooted in faith that the emperor is divine…

 

There’s already a nemesis in the setting [Chaos] and it ripped the galaxy apart about 100 years ago, the imperium is dying on all fronts and one side has, in all but name fallen and without the Astronomican will never survive… there’s probably better times to tell most of the galaxies human population they’re “wrong” and go against the Ecclesiarchy openly… also what does he gain opposing the church now?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If the Imperium were to split it’d be torn apart on both sides. I can see ancient enemies forming temporary alliances to further the ultimate destruction.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

I feel like a set up for a massive schism in the imperium is being set up.

It’s looking like a possible split featuring the church and high lords against guilliman may happen.

 

If such a split occurred what side do you think each chapter would take?

I’m curious as to where you think the massive schism will come from? Guilliman to the Ecclesiarchy is an avatar of a living god! And not just a god “THE” god [He even carry’s said god burning sword]

 

The High Lords in are also now very much in Guillimans court after the Hexarchy crisis eliminated its recidivist members to the new regime… Guilliman even appointment the High Ecclesiarch himself

 

As for Astartes chapters siding against Guilliman…. I’d put it to you, Why? As I’ve said above I don’t see where the schism comes from?? but if it did he’s literally the son of the living god to the masses of the imperium and the more religious chapters (Of which given there isn’t that many) and to the chapters who simply venerate the Emperor Guilliman is still his last son I can see Zero chapters siding with the “Mortal bureaucrats” of Terra

 

Also as other have suggested the Lion returning and starting a civil war is ridiculous and doesn’t fit into any lore vision of the lion I’ve ever read, Loyalty and duty is the main focus for the lion his only goal would be to secure the imperium as I’m sure Guilliman would again appoint him “lord protector” why would the lion possibly side with the ecclesiarchy? An organisation he would see as at best miss guided but more probably heretical after he lived his life bringing the imperial truth to the galaxy

guilliman does not revere the emperor as a god, that and the revelation about imperium secundus combined with imperium nihilus, would be plenty of reason for a schism at the highest levels of the imperium

Would it though? The High Lords again were appointed by Guilliman now what 100 years ago in timeline? including the Ecclesiarch … Most space marine chapters I don’t think the Emperor is a god that’s never made the church target them? So I don’t really see your point? Guilliman thinks they’re misguided for believing the Emperor is a God, he only sees the sad irony that believing he’s a god sparked the HH in the first place but he’s also a political animal and the imperium is only just about holding together from outside threats, there’s literally no resources or time to take on the what 9? millennia spanning rooted in faith that the emperor is divine…

 

There’s already a nemesis in the setting [Chaos] and it ripped the galaxy apart about 100 years ago, the imperium is dying on all fronts and one side has, in all but name fallen and without the Astronomican will never survive… there’s probably better times to tell most of the galaxies human population they’re “wrong” and go against the Ecclesiarchy openly… also what does he gain opposing the church now?

i haven’t read many of the newer novels but I believe that guilliman had to come to terms with the fact the spreading the old imperial truth would result in a civil war according to Rho anyway Edited January 15, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Sword Brother Adelard]

He's having a bit of a crisis of faith himself truth be told, wondering now if the sheer belief in the Emperor by humanity has in effect made him a god after all.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

 

guilliman does not revere the emperor as a god, that and the revelation about imperium secundus combined with imperium nihilus, would be plenty of reason for a schism at the highest levels of the imperium

Would it though? The High Lords again were appointed by Guilliman now what 100 years ago in timeline? including the Ecclesiarch … Most space marine chapters I don’t think the Emperor is a god that’s never made the church target them? So I don’t really see your point? Guilliman thinks they’re misguided for believing the Emperor is a God, he only sees the sad irony that believing he’s a god sparked the HH in the first place but he’s also a political animal and the imperium is only just about holding together from outside threats, there’s literally no resources or time to take on the what 9? millennia spanning rooted in faith that the emperor is divine…

 

There’s already a nemesis in the setting [Chaos] and it ripped the galaxy apart about 100 years ago, the imperium is dying on all fronts and one side has, in all but name fallen and without the Astronomican will never survive… there’s probably better times to tell most of the galaxies human population they’re “wrong” and go against the Ecclesiarchy openly… also what does he gain opposing the church now?

 

 

The whole "100 years" thing is pretty well dead at this point when it comes to discussing Guilliman and Terra. Dark Imperium got retconned to taking place a dozen years after the Crusade started, rather than 112 years. There may be some stories that took place in that +100 years timeframe that will stay there and not be pushed back, but most of the fiction is likely to remain set within the first decade or two of Gilly's return.

[WARMASTER_]

 

The whole "100 years" thing is pretty well dead at this point when it comes to discussing Guilliman and Terra. Dark Imperium got retconned to taking place a dozen years after the Crusade started, rather than 112 years. There may be some stories that took place in that +100 years timeframe that will stay there and not be pushed back, but most of the fiction is likely to remain set within the first decade or two of Gilly's return.

Well as the dawn of fire series progresses the “current” fiction at least that novel series will inevitably reach the current time line of 100 ish years after as that’s why they’ve retconned a single novels events date so it can reach a final event we haven’t seen yet (keeps it interesting) so I’d probably wager most of the fiction will actually be set in any of that time from the rift opening to after the indomitus crusade

 

I think way to much has been put on one books event time line being changed, 40K is a narrative with a meta plot I doubt many authors will cleave to a specific date in the cursade when they have 100+ years to play with, look at the space marine battles series most were considered modern 40K and many took place hundreds of years before the “current” time line that was

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

The whole "100 years" thing is pretty well dead at this point when it comes to discussing Guilliman and Terra. Dark Imperium got retconned to taking place a dozen years after the Crusade started, rather than 112 years. There may be some stories that took place in that +100 years timeframe that will stay there and not be pushed back, but most of the fiction is likely to remain set within the first decade or two of Gilly's return.

Well as the dawn of fire series progresses the “current” fiction at least that novel series will inevitably reach the current time line of 100 ish years after as that’s why they’ve retconned a single novels events date so it can reach a final event we haven’t seen yet (keeps it interesting) so I’d probably wager most of the fiction will actually be set in any of that time from the rift opening to after the indomitus crusade

 

I think way to much has been put on one books event time line being changed, 40K is a narrative with a meta plot I doubt many authors will cleave to a specific date in the cursade when they have 100+ years to play with, look at the space marine battles series most were considered modern 40K and many took place hundreds of years before the “current” time line that was

 

 

They've already stated numerous times that Dawn of Fire will end where the retconned Dark Imperium began, 12 years into the Crusade.

 

Frankly, there just wasn't a lot of fiction set post-Crusade and it's far less exciting for stories to be set AFTER a galaxy-spanning conflict than during it.

[Orange Knight]

12 years sounds like a short time in the 40k universe, but the entire Horus Heresy took place over 9.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I agree, the 100 year thing is almost entirely gone. I think the closest I can think of is the very end of Spears of the Emperor, because the narrator is retelling events from long before.

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

 

The whole "100 years" thing is pretty well dead at this point when it comes to discussing Guilliman and Terra. Dark Imperium got retconned to taking place a dozen years after the Crusade started, rather than 112 years. There may be some stories that took place in that +100 years timeframe that will stay there and not be pushed back, but most of the fiction is likely to remain set within the first decade or two of Gilly's return.

Well as the dawn of fire series progresses the “current” fiction at least that novel series will inevitably reach the current time line of 100 ish years after as that’s why they’ve retconned a single novels events date so it can reach a final event we haven’t seen yet (keeps it interesting) so I’d probably wager most of the fiction will actually be set in any of that time from the rift opening to after the indomitus crusade

 

I think way to much has been put on one books event time line being changed, 40K is a narrative with a meta plot I doubt many authors will cleave to a specific date in the cursade when they have 100+ years to play with, look at the space marine battles series most were considered modern 40K and many took place hundreds of years before the “current” time line that was

They've already stated numerous times that Dawn of Fire will end where the retconned Dark Imperium began, 12 years into the Crusade.

 

Frankly, there just wasn't a lot of fiction set post-Crusade and it's far less exciting for stories to be set AFTER a galaxy-spanning conflict than during it.

From the mouth of the guy that’s leading the series and wrote the book

6.40 onwards in the interview

 

Dark imperium is now only the end of the “first phase” of the crusade so all they’ve done is now left the ending event of the crusade unknown (so they can write a full series without us knowing the end which makes way more sense imagine starting the HH series at the final book of the siege of terra) and moved a single event “the plague war” to 12 years in

 

The time line is still 100 “ish” year after the rift opening for current date the dawn of fire series is just filling in the space between

Edited January 16, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

 

 

The whole "100 years" thing is pretty well dead at this point when it comes to discussing Guilliman and Terra. Dark Imperium got retconned to taking place a dozen years after the Crusade started, rather than 112 years. There may be some stories that took place in that +100 years timeframe that will stay there and not be pushed back, but most of the fiction is likely to remain set within the first decade or two of Gilly's return.

Well as the dawn of fire series progresses the “current” fiction at least that novel series will inevitably reach the current time line of 100 ish years after as that’s why they’ve retconned a single novels events date so it can reach a final event we haven’t seen yet (keeps it interesting) so I’d probably wager most of the fiction will actually be set in any of that time from the rift opening to after the indomitus crusade

 

I think way to much has been put on one books event time line being changed, 40K is a narrative with a meta plot I doubt many authors will cleave to a specific date in the cursade when they have 100+ years to play with, look at the space marine battles series most were considered modern 40K and many took place hundreds of years before the “current” time line that was

They've already stated numerous times that Dawn of Fire will end where the retconned Dark Imperium began, 12 years into the Crusade.

 

Frankly, there just wasn't a lot of fiction set post-Crusade and it's far less exciting for stories to be set AFTER a galaxy-spanning conflict than during it.

From the mouth of the guy that’s leading the series and wrote the book

6.40 onwards in the interview

 

Dark imperium is now only the end of the “first phase” of the crusade so all they’ve done is now left the ending event of the crusade unknown (so they can write a full series without us knowing the end which makes way more sense imagine starting the HH series at the final book of the siege of terra) and moved a single event “the plague war” to 12 years in

 

The time line is still 100 “ish” year after the rift opening for current date the dawn of fire series is just filling in the space between

 

 

I'm familiar with that interview. I'm curious which part of it you're interpreting as supporting your contention, though.

 

I GUARANTEE Dawn of Fire will end where Dark Imperium begins - twelve years into the Crusade - not a hundred-plus years into the Crusade as you allege. Not only has Haley said as much multiple times, but the series is actually named after the flagship that is replaced as of the Dark Imperium trilogy.

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

 

 

 

The whole "100 years" thing is pretty well dead at this point when it comes to discussing Guilliman and Terra. Dark Imperium got retconned to taking place a dozen years after the Crusade started, rather than 112 years. There may be some stories that took place in that +100 years timeframe that will stay there and not be pushed back, but most of the fiction is likely to remain set within the first decade or two of Gilly's return.

Well as the dawn of fire series progresses the “current” fiction at least that novel series will inevitably reach the current time line of 100 ish years after as that’s why they’ve retconned a single novels events date so it can reach a final event we haven’t seen yet (keeps it interesting) so I’d probably wager most of the fiction will actually be set in any of that time from the rift opening to after the indomitus crusade

 

I think way to much has been put on one books event time line being changed, 40K is a narrative with a meta plot I doubt many authors will cleave to a specific date in the cursade when they have 100+ years to play with, look at the space marine battles series most were considered modern 40K and many took place hundreds of years before the “current” time line that was

They've already stated numerous times that Dawn of Fire will end where the retconned Dark Imperium began, 12 years into the Crusade.

 

Frankly, there just wasn't a lot of fiction set post-Crusade and it's far less exciting for stories to be set AFTER a galaxy-spanning conflict than during it.

From the mouth of the guy that’s leading the series and wrote the book

6.40 onwards in the interview

 

Dark imperium is now only the end of the “first phase” of the crusade so all they’ve done is now left the ending event of the crusade unknown (so they can write a full series without us knowing the end which makes way more sense imagine starting the HH series at the final book of the siege of terra) and moved a single event “the plague war” to 12 years in

 

The time line is still 100 “ish” year after the rift opening for current date the dawn of fire series is just filling in the space between

I'm familiar with that interview. I'm curious which part of it you're interpreting as supporting your contention, though.

 

I GUARANTEE Dawn of Fire will end where Dark Imperium begins - twelve years into the Crusade - not a hundred-plus years into the Crusade as you allege. Not only has Haley said as much multiple times, but the series is actually named after the flagship that is replaced as of the Dark Imperium trilogy.

While I think we may have crossed wires here at some point, my original point when the thread was on track is the the time line remains the same were still 100+ years after the rift opened whether the Dawn of Fore series ends at plague war or not…

 

I would say though my point of contention is at what point did he say that the plague war will mark the end of the series?

Edited January 16, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance