If the imperium split which chapters would go to which side?

[Dracos]

Team Guilliman: Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Imperial Fist, Salamanders

 

Team Johnson: Dark Angels, Iron Hands, White Scars, Space Wolves.

 

 

Raven Guard are in a Shadow War with the Alpha Legion as the Sons of Alpharius attempt to play one side against the other. ;)

[Medjugorje]

dont forget that it has happen already when Gogh Vandire where in place.

 

Most chapters ignored the conflict and even the Fire Hawks and the Black Templars who are of the few "imp is a god" chapters interacted very late

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

dont forget that it has happen already when Gogh Vandire where in place.

 

Most chapters ignored the conflict and even the Fire Hawks and the Black Templars who are of the few "imp is a god" chapters interacted very late

i think it would be a bit different if a primarch were involved though

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

dont forget that it has happen already when Gogh Vandire where in place.

 

Most chapters ignored the conflict and even the Fire Hawks and the Black Templars who are of the few "imp is a god" chapters interacted very late

i think it would be a bit different if a primarch were involved though

 

 

I don't know if it would change things.

 

If Russ comes back he has a grudge with Magnus, and Ghazzy is on his doorstep.

If the Khan comes back, would he care? He was fine with the legions breaking up. His system is tainted and Morty round 3 may be in the cards.

If the Lion shows up, he has some unfinished business with Luther.  

If Dorn appears I don't think he is just going to want the guard the base again, and Peturabo is out there.

If Vulkan shows up, I doubt he would care (if anything the primaris successors may really make his day).

If Corax shows up, the Tau are in a world of trouble.

 

In order for it to make sense the Imperium needs to start kicking a lot of Butts. Is it possible GW goes that route sure, but I think are lot of existing rivalries that should be explored. Plus, I think with primarch/chapter fights it's a lot better to theory craft than have GW tell us what happened.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

dont forget that it has happen already when Gogh Vandire where in place.

 

Most chapters ignored the conflict and even the Fire Hawks and the Black Templars who are of the few "imp is a god" chapters interacted very late

i think it would be a bit different if a primarch were involved though

I don't know if it would change things.

 

If Russ comes back he has a grudge with Magnus, and Ghazzy is on his doorstep.

If the Khan comes back, would he care? He was fine with the legions breaking up. His system is tainted and Morty round 3 may be in the cards.

If the Lion shows up, he has some unfinished business with Luther.

If Dorn appears I don't think he is just going to want the guard the base again, and Peturabo is out there.

If Vulkan shows up, I doubt he would care (if anything the primaris successors may really make his day).

If Corax shows up, the Tau are in a world of trouble.

 

In order for it to make sense the Imperium needs to start kicking a lot of Butts. Is it possible GW goes that route sure, but I think are lot of existing rivalries that should be explored. Plus, I think with primarch/chapter fights it's a lot better to theory craft than have GW tell us what happened.

I wasn’t talking about another primarch coming back.

 

I’m talking about a civil conflict that has guilliman taking a side, or guilliman being a side.

Only one side might have astartes but astartes wouldn’t completely sit that conflict out (aside from the obvious UMs)

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think very few Astartes would side with any integral part of the Imperium. Only chapters like the Minotaurs would side against Guilliman.

[Charlo]

I think very few Astartes would side with any integral part of the Imperium. Only chapters like the Minotaurs would side against Guilliman.

No they wouldn't :)

 

You've got some books to read ;)

[MegaVolt87]

Russ, Khan, Lion or Vulkan I am fine with ONE of those returning. No formal split Imperium civil war, more distrustful/ snark/ unrest within the Imperium instead. 

 

Dorn is basically dead, if they bought him back then people will want Perty as well. I don't want 40k Perty so no Dorn.

 

If Corax comes back, people will want Lorgar to return also. I don't want Lorgar in 40k.

 

Only Angorn and Fulgrim need to return on the chaos side. Want more chaos? bring back more named character demons to 40k, add more CSM characters. Mix of returning HH vets + new bloods in 40k. 

[Jacques Corbin]

Perturabo would be fun as a mutated hybrid of an obliterator and a mutilator.

 

Khan returning would be fun. While he wouldn't have the sense of entitlement that the Lion would he could rightfully say to any other Primarch present "...and where were you when Horus laid siege ro Holy Terra??" Which would be hilarious.

 

Also, the Khan's stance on ruling and governance. He sees a palace as a cage. I really want to see how he reacts to seeing the result of effectively no one being in the cage for 10000 years. He absolutely won't ever want to be in the cage, but he is wise enough to understand the consequences of the cage being fought over after being vacant for so long. Could we see Khan get it all??

 

The Lion's return would be the most tumultuous. Which is what I want. Keep it interesting. I do not think he will be petty enough to get into open conflict with Guilliman. There will be that seething, we'll settle this later vibe though.

 

The topic of whether or not Imperium Secundus is known in Imperial history, and what would be thought of it. I think the consensus is leaning toward unknown. The Lion is the only one left who knows what went down, and Guilliman will look worse than the Lion will. Also, the Lion is canny enough to understand that the only one who can dispute his version, looks like he seceded no matter how the story is told. Of course no fault will be found with Sanguinius, because he is Sanguinius.

[XeonDragon]

I think Corax and the Raven Guard would be an interesting angle on such a split. He - and his 'sons' - hate "tyrants". 

 

On the assumption (a big one) that he 'comes back' from chasing Lorgar, or simply takes a break, then he could play a really interesting role in any such conflict. On the assumption that the Imperium was split along Adeptus Ministorum / Guilliman lines and not Imperium Nihilus vs Terra-based Imperium, then to my mind, if Corax thought the "Church" were a bunch of tyrants and Guilliman was not, then that could lend itself to Corax and the Raven Guard engaging in a 'shadow civil war' against the Adeptus Ministorum, via assassinations etc. That could even be a trigger for an actual civil war breaking out. Alternatively, I could see Corax basically working with the big G to cripple the leadership of the Adeptus Ministorum and thus bring a quick end to such a civil war. 

 

It it was a Imperium Nihilus vs Terra-based Imperium based civil war, then I think Corax could make for an interesting 'swing' character - which leader or which Imperium is the least tyrannical? 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If Corax comes back, he'd better have a normal looking corporeal form. If he's stuck as a shadowy "daemonic" presence he'll be hunted even by his sons.

[WrathOfTheLion]

How would the Imperium Nihilus and the standard Imperium even have a conflict, with so limited ability to travel between them?

 

I'd think that a soft independence would be more likely there. There's no reason for the Imperium Nihilus to overtly seek independence, but over time they're functionally going to have significant autonomy due to limited ability of Terra to have any influence or manage the affairs there.

[Boldthreat]

I don’t think you would have a conflict of factions split via the Great Rift. I don’t think that makes sense. Both sides are fighting for their lives, even more so on the Baal side of the Galaxy. I see Imperium Nihilus as a location where communication is screwed and when it’s not it’s bad news everyday. A perfect location for a game of chess between Luther and Lion without too much interference.

 

If there is a conflict on the Terran side of the Imperium, I don’t think it would be overtly so. I would just see it as conflicting world views that would be vying for supremacy. Now in 40k terms that still leaves room for killing, but on a scale that’s not Horus Heresy Mark II.

 

I think the true conflict is over the heart and soul of the Imperium post the Great Rift. On one side you have Guilliman and his crusade for hope, reason, and truth. This view is the anti-view to what the Imperium had been doing since pretty much since the end of the Horus Heresy… faith, superstition and lies. Now the Dark Imperium books did a great job with this situation. But in my opinion, in order for the old ideology to really strike back against Guillimans reforms, it needs a Champion to compete with Guilliman on an even level. It can’t be a human priest. I feel it has to be a Primarch.

 

So here is my pet theory, it’s probably dead wrong, but I believe the lore is there for this to be possible. I’d argue they have been building to it.

 

If this is a thing, and if this thing needs a Champion, then I believe that Champion is Rogal Dorn. Not the Rogal Dorn of the Horus Heresy and the Great Crusade. But the Rogal Dorn post the Iron Cage. These are two different characters. Recall the old Index Astartes article on the Imperial Fists… Dorn after the interment of the Emperor goes crazy, and almost starts a new Civil War over Guillimans reforms. He doesn’t relent because he had a simple change of heart… he relents because of a vision he received from the Emperor “whom Dorn thought all but dead” in the pain glove. He has a religious event here. And this event completely changes Dorn. Because he had to stop fighting for the Emperor that was, and will never be again, and start fighting for the Emperor that is.

 

This is why Dorn walks into the Iron Cage. If the vision in the Pain Glove was his Salvation, then the Iron Cage would be his Baptism. And it doesn’t just cleanse him, it changes his Legion forever as well. That wasn’t an accident. Dorn knew he had a Legion of Space Marines that thought exactly like Old Dorn. And that couldn’t stand. Dorn isn’t too different than Purterabo. He just didn’t have the heart to make his legion decimate themselves like Perturabo did, so he had his Brother do it for him.

 

And if you really study Dorn’s arc through the Horus Heresy novels, you pretty much see that he is the guy who kills innocents to hide the truth. He is the guy that will break his moral code over and over to save his fathers dream. He is practically the father of the Inquisition. Everything you have been told is a lie… and it started with Dorn… the primarch who could never tell a lie… that’s all he’s done in the Horus Heresy… is dismantle the beauty of the Emperors dream, bolt guns on everything and lie And or hide the dangerous truth. Heck he kills a brother and hides it from everyone! There is a reason Preatorian of Dorn was all about how Dorn could out Alpha Legion the Alpha Legion… because why that’s important hasn’t been shown yet. But it’s coming, he just has to break first.

 

It’s poetic really… the Primarch who is pretty much the poster child of the Great Crusade, his Fathers most loyal son and ardent supporter of His dream… is the Son who destroys it all.

 

I don’t think Lorgars writings are why the Imperium now worships the Emperor as a God. I think Dorn’s the driver of that. Remember Dorn “dies” on a the Sword of Sacrilege. But what did the IA say prior to this? That as more of his brothers died or disappeared the remaining brothers were starting to be deified. This didn’t set well with him because he believed only one being deserved this worship… his God the Emperor. So he willingly goes to his “Death”. He had to exit the public stage, so Emperor worship could foster in a Primarchless World. I’m not saying Dorn actually believes the Emperor is a God or not at this point, but I do believe he would force it on humanity if he thought it was the only way to survive. But I like it better if it’s true belief.

 

Only one Primarch can match Guilliman and his Empire Running. Remember Dorn used to be the Emperor of a space faring Empire prior to his rediscovery. Not only that, but only Dorn, besides Guilliman was The Lord Commander of the Imperium in the post HH Imperium. Taking it after Guilliman was put in stasis. He is Guillimans true foil on the political stage of the Imperium.

 

So we have a Primarch that:

 

Turned to Emperor worship post HH. And purposefully disappeared to foster this belief. This is a fact according to the older IA.

 

Will kill, lie, and hide the truth if it’s dangerous. And in 40k it’s all dangerous. He pretty much starts the Inquisition. This is a fact according to the Horus Heresy novels.

 

Is more than capable in shadow operations and destabilizing governments using black ops and terror tactics. On par with the Primarch of the Alpha Legion. This is fact according to the Horus Heresy.

 

So fast forward 10k years… and a returned Guilliman is trying to undo everything Dorn has been masterminding in the shadows all this time. This is why he finally reveals himself. Because he believes that Faith and zeal are the keys to survival, not knowledge and hope.

 

I don’t see this as being a True Civil War. Just two brothers who disagree on what will ultimately see Humanity through the Horror. With the occasional blue on blue shenanigans that happen in the Imperium anyway.

 

The Lion is going to be playing Tag with Luther in the Imperium Nihilus. I think he will get under Dante’s skin with all the secrets and potentially become the Regent.

 

Russ is going to be the neutral Barbarian Lord who doesn’t agree fully with either of them. I see him as being the offensive executioner of the Emperors enemies. Not so much concerned with politics.

 

I don’t think Corax leaves the Warp. Preferring to be the boogeyman to demons, traitors and monsters.

 

The Khan has always been an outsider and I don’t see that changing. I would compare him more to Russ.

 

Ferrus Manus is dead. His return (which has been hinted at) could throw a wrench in some plans. But I would tie this to the mechanicus more than anything.

 

Sangy is dead/dead.

 

And the Salamander primarch… who knows…

 

I think it has to be Dorn. At least that’s what I would do… Dorn loses his mind and becomes Lorgar. And after 10 thousand years of the Long War… he’s more stubborn and fanatical than ever.

 

In this scenario… I wouldn’t know which chapters would embrace which ideology. The Black Templars would go Dorn. Ultramarines would go Guilliman. I think the Imperial Fists would be a toss up… and I would put Kantor in Guillimans camp. But I think an argument could be made that the White Consuls (who I think believed in the divinity of the Emperor) and/or the Marines Errant could side with Dorn. I don’t think the split would necessarily be down genetic lines. I think it would just come down to Chapter cult and temperament. With Chapters like the Space Wolves doing their own thing.

 

Anyway, just my thoughts. I’m really interested to see what BL does with the post HH stuff, and what they do with the Dark Imperium in the future. Only thing we can be sure of is there will be only war.

[Angelus Nex]

Any Imperial fists and successors would be on the right side. All other will be WRONG!

[Beta galactosidase]

I think Corax and the Raven Guard would be an interesting angle on such a split. He - and his 'sons' - hate "tyrants".

 

On the assumption that the Imperium was split along Adeptus Ministorum / Guilliman lines and not Imperium Nihilus vs Terra-based Imperium, I could see Corax basically working with the big G to cripple the leadership of the Adeptus Ministorum and thus bring a quick end to such a civil war.

There are many ways to interpret Corax’s anti-tyranny

 

As far as we know he could say that the Emperor had intended for mortals to wield power, and that Guilliman is an autocrat. He could take the side of the Adeptus Terra and the church. Religions have often been portrayed as somehow aligned with the masses against monarchs, even if they’re very hierarchic churches and there isn’t much difference between the two.

 

It doesn’t have to even be a genuinely egalitarian feeling on the part of corax.

 

Corax is that he might have been a bit of a sheep dog or a collaborator, since he eventually allowed to tech lords on kiavahr to retain control and tirned them over to Imperial service. He wasn’t as wary of the Imperium as Khan or Angron

 

The ravens’ sixth company have these insurrectionist liberation movements, it’s true. The thing is that fighting tyranny has always been an excuse for war. Ancient Rome frequently proclaimed that [kingdom] was being tyrannical to [neighboring kingdom] and then occupied both to preserve security. All sides of the Cold War claimed that their allies in a given civil war were the only true democratic freedom fighters.

 

The corax successor Raptors chapter is the biggest reaonable marines or US special forces themed chapter. They are also the source of one of the references to democracy in 40k, where they crush the Sulsalid sector and massacre their legislature for being democratic.

 

 

Corax could reappear and fight against tyranny, but which faction he calls tyrannical would be up in the air.

 

I don’t think official 40k would go anywhere in the direction of a schism but presumably they’d put one or two on the opposite side as guilliman, and make it a little ambiguous as to which side was more sympathetic

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I was not thinking of any other loyalist primarchs being returned.

 

I was simply thinking the lore as it is now, if the split happened which chapters would take which side?

[Charybdis]

This thread is fantastic, me and my friends are planning this exact scenario at the moment in a narrative campaign.

 

After finishing Godblight we've been trying to decide in a civil war over Secundus which factions the first founding chapters would side with.

 

So far Big blue's line up consists of

 

1) Ultramarines (obviously)

 

2) Iron Hands. Practicality above all else, I think they would appreciate the logic of establishing a second beach head in case Terra had fallen.

 

3) White Scars. I think their unorthodox nature would put them on the reformist side rather than returning to the status quo. Also after reading their Heresy novels they seem less about blind loyalty to the Emperor and more about viewing the situation from both sides and deciding for themselves.

 

4) Salamanders. Personally I think they would just consider the whole thing lunacy given the current threats within the setting but if they had to pick a side I see the ideals of the Promethean Cult aligning more with Gullimans vision of the Imperium.

 

5) Blood Angels. They've got way too much on their hands within the Imperium Nihilus but again if they have to pick a side Sanguinius was the Emperor of Secundus. The fact he went along with it would be the decider for them.

 

 

High Lords/Ecclesiarchy 

 

1) Imperial Fists. They're the Pratorians of Terra and if war with Ultramar came I just don't see them siding against the homeworld. 

 

2) Raven Guard. Whilst I think the 19th's code more easily aligns with Gulliman's more reformist vision of the Imperium, they especially hate a Tyrant. The High Lords could quite easily spin the revelations of Secundus and make the Lord Commander a usurper rather than a saviour.

 

3) Space Wolves. I know 40K lore puts them at odds with the Inquisition but the Heresy novels really emphasise their total loyalty to the Emperor. Again if Gulliman is cast as the usurper then I think the 'Emperors Executioners' would side with Terra.

 

4) Grey Knights/Deathwatch. Both are in the Chamber militant of the Inquisition. Assuming the Inquisition sides with the High Lords/Ecclesiarchy. 

Story wise it will be interesting to see how the individual members of the DeathWatch will feel about taking on their previous brothers.

 

Wild Card for me is the Dark Angels. On the one hand they are fanatical about appearing above board with loyalty to the Imperium beyond reproach for obvious reasons, but the Lion was Secundus's WarMaster. I can't decide if that would be enough to sway them to Gullimans side like Sanguinius would the Blood Angels though. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

It's been 10k years since the Heresy, so I don't see the SW on the High Lord side unless a huge shakeup occurs and Logan Grimnar is replaced.

 

DA I don't think are a wild card, they've been quite screwed over the millennia from the High Lords, not being able to get new Chapters a lot of times, etc. They have a lot to gain from getting that out of the way, and would have a purely pragmatic reason on top of any others.

 

Guilliman would be wise to secure them and the BA first, as he would almost entirely secure the extended geneline of both in one move.

Edited March 13, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[phandaal]

 

Wild Card for me is the Dark Angels. On the one hand they are fanatical about appearing above board with loyalty to the Imperium beyond reproach for obvious reasons, but the Lion was Secundus's WarMaster. I can't decide if that would be enough to sway them to Gullimans side like Sanguinius would the Blood Angels though. 

 

Dark Angels are not fanatical about appearing to be loyal. They are fanatical about being loyal. Thanks to the Fallen, Dark Angels are ashamed of even the slightest hint of disloyalty.

 

The thing about keeping up appearances is that their hunt for the Fallen risks being exposed if they ever appear to be acting disloyally by choosing the hunt over other activities. i.e., there could be questions about why the Dark Angels choose to be in one place over another, or hit one objective over another etc. So they are careful to act in such a way as to not have that question even come up. Does not mean the act is not genuine though.

 

The question in this scenario would be which version of the Imperium the Dark Angels believe to be legitimate, or if they even believe either side is worth supporting. If the Lion woke up he might not be willing to join in, considering he already went from the Horus Heresy straight into a civil war in his own Legion. More likely than not he would do what Guilliman did and try to speak with Papa Emperor before doing anything else.

Edited March 13, 2022 by phandaal

[Charybdis]

It's been 10k years since the Heresy, so I don't see the SW on the High Lord side unless a huge shakeup occurs and Logan Grimnar is replaced.

 

DA I don't think are a wild card, they've been quite screwed over the millennia from the High Lords, not being able to get new Chapters a lot of times, etc. They have a lot to gain from getting that out of the way, and would have a purely pragmatic reason on top of any others.

 

Guilliman would be wise to secure them and the BA first, as he would almost entirely secure the extended geneline of both in one move.

So would the Dark Angels view Gullimans approval by the Emperor (Did the Emperor gift Gulliman his sword? Or did he claim it during the scouring? I've read both from conflicting sources.) as reason enough to fight for him?

Genuinely curious as our DA player can't decide which side they would take. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

It's been 10k years since the Heresy, so I don't see the SW on the High Lord side unless a huge shakeup occurs and Logan Grimnar is replaced.

 

DA I don't think are a wild card, they've been quite screwed over the millennia from the High Lords, not being able to get new Chapters a lot of times, etc. They have a lot to gain from getting that out of the way, and would have a purely pragmatic reason on top of any others.

 

Guilliman would be wise to secure them and the BA first, as he would almost entirely secure the extended geneline of both in one move.

So would the Dark Angels view Gullimans approval by the Emperor (Did the Emperor gift Gulliman his sword? Or did he claim it during the scouring? I've read both from conflicting sources.) as reason enough to fight for him?

Genuinely curious as our DA player can't decide which side they would take. 

 

 

I don't think there is enough current fluff to really tell. IMO it's why a lot of people add primarchs into this discussion because we know those characters and their relationships with each other better than the majority of the current chapter masters. Heck it's entirely possible that in a civil war you could have two chapters with same gene father fighting on opposite sides. It's not like the Iron hands and Sons of Medusa get along as an example. There also probably would be a lot of chapters that just wouldn't get involved, as a space wolf player their choice would be between a legion breaker or the high lords neither of which is appealing to them. 

 

Granted I think there is a key part of the puzzle missing which is what event actually starts it, cause whatever it is would have to be pretty crazy. I mean the traitor legions would have to get beat*, Xenos killed off, and the rift would need to be closed (probably being sealing the warp somehow so no more psykers). At that point after FTL travel without using the warp was discovered G-Man would have to do something to piss people off if sealing the warp didn't kill him, and then the surviving legions would pick sides (I don't think the smaller legions like wolves or salamanders would make it through those conflicts). I guess sealing the warp may kill the Emperor but if they didn't need his light for warp travel would people care?  

 

*the other option would be G-Man falling to chaos and few other loyalist chapters falling and the successors deciding to go with them, but I doubt their fans want that.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

This thread is fantastic, me and my friends are planning this exact scenario at the moment in a narrative campaign.

 

After finishing Godblight we've been trying to decide in a civil war over Secundus which factions the first founding chapters would side with.

 

So far Big blue's line up consists of

 

1) Ultramarines (obviously)

 

2) Iron Hands. Practicality above all else, I think they would appreciate the logic of establishing a second beach head in case Terra had fallen.

 

3) White Scars. I think their unorthodox nature would put them on the reformist side rather than returning to the status quo. Also after reading their Heresy novels they seem less about blind loyalty to the Emperor and more about viewing the situation from both sides and deciding for themselves.

 

4) Salamanders. Personally I think they would just consider the whole thing lunacy given the current threats within the setting but if they had to pick a side I see the ideals of the Promethean Cult aligning more with Gullimans vision of the Imperium.

 

5) Blood Angels. They've got way too much on their hands within the Imperium Nihilus but again if they have to pick a side Sanguinius was the Emperor of Secundus. The fact he went along with it would be the decider for them.

 

 

High Lords/Ecclesiarchy

 

1) Imperial Fists. They're the Pratorians of Terra and if war with Ultramar came I just don't see them siding against the homeworld.

 

2) Raven Guard. Whilst I think the 19th's code more easily aligns with Gulliman's more reformist vision of the Imperium, they especially hate a Tyrant. The High Lords could quite easily spin the revelations of Secundus and make the Lord Commander a usurper rather than a saviour.

 

3) Space Wolves. I know 40K lore puts them at odds with the Inquisition but the Heresy novels really emphasise their total loyalty to the Emperor. Again if Gulliman is cast as the usurper then I think the 'Emperors Executioners' would side with Terra.

 

4) Grey Knights/Deathwatch. Both are in the Chamber militant of the Inquisition. Assuming the Inquisition sides with the High Lords/Ecclesiarchy.

Story wise it will be interesting to see how the individual members of the DeathWatch will feel about taking on their previous brothers.

 

Wild Card for me is the Dark Angels. On the one hand they are fanatical about appearing above board with loyalty to the Imperium beyond reproach for obvious reasons, but the Lion was Secundus's WarMaster. I can't decide if that would be enough to sway them to Gullimans side like Sanguinius would the Blood Angels though.

in the end for DA I guess it would come down to who they view as being representative of the imperium itself at the time. A son of the emperor, or some random dudes.