Is the codex still in place?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

A lot of the focus on chapters that got primaris reinforcements has been on chapters like the BA, that had recently been destroyed…but we know primaris reinforcements were sent to the other chapters who were full or near full strength, so how many primaris marines did each chapter get? Did Guilliman decide to just throw the 1000 marines per chapter rule out the window?

[SvenIronhand]

He amended it.

[Orange Knight]

Guilliman, in the latest lore, is working a new tome called "The Codex Imperiallis"

 

In the meantime he has allowed for the codex to be used in a more flexible manner.

[WARMASTER_]

It was only ever around 1000 marines so think of it more as a “ball park figure” that after millennia of rewrites and dogma became to some chapter a rigid number to be adhered too and not exceed

 

I believe I read somewhere Guilliman was pretty horrified it had been adhered to so rigidly as he’s cost the imperium defenders, as some chapters purposely kept their number to 1000 but could have exceeded the figure somewhat

 

Anyway as others have said he’s definitely loosened the rains somewhat

[WARMASTER_]

Guilliman, in the latest lore, is working a new tome called "The Codex Imperiallis"

 

In the meantime he has allowed for the codex to be used in a more flexible manner.

The “Codex Imperialis” is actually the reformation of the imperial government he’s already reformed the “Codex Astartes” in lore to bring in the Primaris and their new weaponry

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

It was only ever around 1000 marines so think of it more as a “ball park figure” that after millennia of rewrites and dogma became to some chapter a rigid number to be adhered too and not exceed

 

I believe I read somewhere Guilliman was pretty horrified it had been adhered to so rigidly as he’s cost the imperium defenders, as some chapters purposely kept their number to 1000 but could have exceeded the figure somewhat

 

Anyway as others have said he’s definitely loosened the rains somewhat

wolf lord rho just put out a video that said the SW had 4-5k marines at one point in newer lore.

 

Yeah I knew the inquisition wasnt bringing the ban hammer down on a chapter for have 1012 marines lol

[SvenIronhand]

 

wolf lord rho just put out a video that said the SW had 4-5k marines at one point in newer lore.

 

He's full of it. At most, they had 1200. To clarify, lemme copy-paste my comment I put on his video.

 

 

 

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Great Companies work. They are not Chapter-sized formations, they are slightly overstrength formations with their own organic motor pool and Rune Priests/Iron Priests. Wolf Priests are on loan from the Great Wolf's Company. As Packs are winnowed down by attrition, they are not reinforced, hence the existence of Lone Wolves.

 

The Space Wolves, in addition, took plenty of losses from the Siege of the Fenris System. So,the Primaris both went to forming Successor Chapters and to replacing losses.

Edited January 15, 2022 by SvenIronhand

[WARMASTER_]

 

It was only ever around 1000 marines so think of it more as a “ball park figure” that after millennia of rewrites and dogma became to some chapter a rigid number to be adhered too and not exceed

 

I believe I read somewhere Guilliman was pretty horrified it had been adhered to so rigidly as he’s cost the imperium defenders, as some chapters purposely kept their number to 1000 but could have exceeded the figure somewhat

 

Anyway as others have said he’s definitely loosened the rains somewhat

wolf lord rho just put out a video that said the SW had 4-5k marines at one point in newer lore.

 

Yeah I knew the inquisition wasnt bringing the ban hammer down on a chapter for have 1012 marines lol

The wolves never followed the codex Astartes though? So it wouldn’t matter if Guilliman left it in place or not really, doesn’t affect them at all… most chapters are self regulating to the “1000” number as they’re adherents to the codex it’s not really a case of the inquisition needing to regulate it for the most part, they’ve tried and failed with the wolves and the BT’s I mean how to you count them scattered in war zones across the galaxy? Second/Third … fifth? Hand accounts of after battle reports guessing the combat strength present?

 

Numbers in 40K are generally kept vague for good reason and its never really stated the wolves have 4-5k they definitely have way more than a standard chapter I mean look at their fleet 1.5/3k is probably a good guess but it’s a guess… but again they don’t follow the Codex, their numbers much like the Black Templars have no bearing on the revised Codex

Edited January 15, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

wolf lord rho just put out a video that said the SW had 4-5k marines at one point in newer lore.

 

 

He's full of it. At most, they had 1200. To clarify, lemme copy-paste my comment I put on his video.

 

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Great Companies work. They are not Chapter-sized formations, they are slightly overstrength formations with their own organic motor pool and Rune Priests/Iron Priests. Wolf Priests are on loan from the Great Wolf's Company. As Packs are winnowed down by attrition, they are not reinforced, hence the existence of Lone Wolves.

 

The Space Wolves, in addition, took plenty of losses from the Siege of the Fenris System. So,the Primaris both went to forming Successor Chapters and to replacing losses.

You’re a bit off here Ragnars company is said to have around 200 with only Logan’s being larger so i good estimate is around 1.5/3k Astartes

[Lord_Ikka]

 

Guilliman, in the latest lore, is working a new tome called "The Codex Imperiallis"

 

In the meantime he has allowed for the codex to be used in a more flexible manner.

The “Codex Imperialis” is actually the reformation of the imperial government he’s already reformed the “Codex Astartes” in lore to bring in the Primaris and their new weaponry

 

As of the latest Dawn of Fire novel, The Wolftime, Gulliman is still working on his revision of the Codex Astartes. He has loosened the strictures of the original Codex Astartes though, especially regarding the size of the 10th company (now a full company-worth of Vanguard marine plus all the scouts/initiates), and making Primaris marine squads more like the old Legion squads in regards to having all the same weapons. 

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

 

Guilliman, in the latest lore, is working a new tome called "The Codex Imperiallis"

 

In the meantime he has allowed for the codex to be used in a more flexible manner.

The “Codex Imperialis” is actually the reformation of the imperial government he’s already reformed the “Codex Astartes” in lore to bring in the Primaris and their new weaponry

As of the latest Dawn of Fire novel, The Wolftime, Gulliman is still working on his revision of the Codex Astartes. He has loosened the strictures of the original Codex Astartes though, especially regarding the size of the 10th company (now a full company-worth of Vanguard marine plus all the scouts/initiates), and making Primaris marine squads more like the old Legion squads in regards to having all the same weapons.

Dark imperium before the timeline change “ Now I have concluded my revisions of the Codex Astartes, I have begun work upon a new book. This book I shall call the Codex Imperialis. In it I shall set down the principles of good governance long denied our species”

 

Since the the dawn of fire books are now set before the current time line I guess these are both still somewhat valid

[MegaVolt87]

A more realistic number for chapters would be 1,100- 1,250 on average in my mind. I could see chapters being 1k and under going up to 1,500 with a combination of primaris and normal recruitment. At a minimum, 100-200 primaris, the gene tech and STC's for equipment would make sense for most in the handover. First/ second founders seem to have been more provisioned with primaris than others. Also- didn't RG hand over a ton of primaris to BT even though he knew they already  far exceeded numbers past he was considering revising as a new standard? 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't think RG is too much concerned with chapters being stronger as long as they get away with it, and the BTs seem to do so.

 

In the Dark Angels Codex, he walks in on them all holding a Legion conclave and says here's your reinforcements, carry on your merry business.

[WARMASTER_]

I’d say any chapter currently stronger that 1000 is achieving a crazy feet of recruiting the attrition will be staggering in the current setting

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

wolf lord rho just put out a video that said the SW had 4-5k marines at one point in newer lore.

 

He's full of it. At most, they had 1200. To clarify, lemme copy-paste my comment I put on his video.

 

 

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Great Companies work. They are not Chapter-sized formations, they are slightly overstrength formations with their own organic motor pool and Rune Priests/Iron Priests. Wolf Priests are on loan from the Great Wolf's Company. As Packs are winnowed down by attrition, they are not reinforced, hence the existence of Lone Wolves.

 

The Space Wolves, in addition, took plenty of losses from the Siege of the Fenris System. So,the Primaris both went to forming Successor Chapters and to replacing losses.

 

 

We had some pretty good estimates that they were closer to 1500 - 1700 when the 7th edition books came out (Ragnar and Logan's company had 400 between them). At least 2 other companies were over 150. By the wolftime book its under 700 and that isn't counting the other loses between the last time they mustered. Lorewise SW had to take Primaris.

 

That said in the Wolftime book, Guilliman gives the space wolves thousands of primaris. I don't think they're intended to stay space wolves after the Orks are taken care of, I assume that Guilliman expects them to make some successors. It has more to do with how serious the Ork threat is supposed to be around Fenris, Guilliman literally would have to stop the indomitus crusade 3 years in lol. I also think the book does a good job of showing the crazy amount of loses the Unnumbered Sons were taking (a company of 250 wolves was down 120 in three years). 

 

edit: One of the Indomitus Fleets not the entire crusade.

 

second edit: I found an old post by Vash113 logan's company was 200, Ragnar 188, firehowlers 148, Sons of Morkai at 119, Ironwolves 119, deathwolves had 100 so six of the 12 companies had 874 so his estimate was 1750 counting the wolf blades and other garrisons.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Beta galactosidase]

Did Guilliman decide to just throw the 1000 marines per chapter rule out the window?

Nothing about the reinforcements suggests that it’s a permanent modification.

 

The simplest assumption is that if he gives a chapter 900 extra primaris, that as long as those specific 900 are alive they don’t count as building extra marines, because the chapter didn’t build them, Guilliman gave them the 900. However they should not be replaced and the expectation is that the chapter will only maintain roughly ten companies of 100, besides those specific 900 marines. Once they’re gone, they’re gone.

[Karhedron]

I may have missed it in the lore but can Primaris Marines be created faster than Firstborn? I seem to recall that implantation and training usually took around 10 years for a traditional Marine apart from the Blood Angels who do the entire physical transformation in just 1 year.

[Rik Lightstar]

I may have missed it in the lore but can Primaris Marines be created faster than Firstborn? I seem to recall that implantation and training usually took around 10 years for a traditional Marine apart from the Blood Angels who do the entire physical transformation in just 1 year.

Primaris take a bit longer if anything, it's the usual process plus a couple of extra organs thrown in at certain stages.

 

Rik

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Rho isn't off. When the Wolves are debating whether to accept the Primaris or not, they are discussing being given THOUSANDS of Primaris marines immediately. They essentially can't believe that the 'Legion Breaker' is the one trying to give them several chapters' worth of marines in one go.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I may have missed it in the lore but can Primaris Marines be created faster than Firstborn? I seem to recall that implantation and training usually took around 10 years for a traditional Marine apart from the Blood Angels who do the entire physical transformation in just 1 year.

 

Not that I'm aware of. I do think you'd probably have some chapter that updated their traditions. The really haven't gone into a deep dive on that though.

 

Rho isn't off. When the Wolves are debating whether to accept the Primaris or not, they are discussing being given THOUSANDS of Primaris marines immediately. They essentially can't believe that the 'Legion Breaker' is the one trying to give them several chapters' worth of marines in one go.

 

Its more that they can't believe he is trying to give them that many without more obligations down the line. Guilliman wanting them to take care of the Orks doesn't matter to them because they were already planning to do it (the question being whether they die out in the attempt). What Guilliman would ask of them 10 years down the line on the other hand matters very much. It was a well down story arc, I was pretty hard on Gav for his past marine books, but Wolftime was solid.  

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Well yeah, but I didn't want to give that many spoilers...

[BloodyB]

There is a clause in the Codex Astartes that states a Chapter may exceed 1000 active Astartes if on crusade. At current, I would argue that almost all space marine Chapters that are currently reinforced with Primaris, would be part of the Indomitus Crusade, if not the main part of the Crusade, then fulfilling secondary objectives in areas local to their own Homeworld or area where they met the crusade. I could easily imagine Guilliman might even give 500 new Primaris to reinforce a pre-existing Chapter, while also being reinforced himself by some Firstborn, adding experience to the Unnumbered Sons and insuring a given Crusade fleet doesn't lack too much for Marine support. Those marines could conceivably be used to convince reticent Chapters to accept their new brothers if Custodes were unavailable for that meeting.

[Kenzaburo]

To get back to the original poster's question: Yes, the codex is still in place. And it's now handled more the way it was intended: as a strategic military guideline to the Astartes with less religious adherance "If in situation A, you do B"  and more "If in situation A, it could prove prudent to do B". Most intact chapters would have been more than 1,000 marines anyways if you added up the numbers. Guillimans goal was to break the legions and split the Astartes into sizes that would no longer pose a single threat to the Imperium. 

 

Also it was Guilliman who basically kept the Ultramarines Legion around. IIRC, some official material mentioned that the XIIIth legion was still able to act as a space marine legion after the scouring if Guilliman so wished. There were still enough ties to draw together a significant part of descendants. I#m not 100% sure if that was still the case in the 41st millenium, though. 

 

So yeah, codes was amended and should now be used more as a guideline you should roughly stick to instead of being a set of hard rules.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Basically, use the Codex as it was intended as guidelines.

 

As the Black Templars already did. ;-)

[Medjugorje]

To get back to the original poster's question: Yes, the codex is still in place. And it's now handled more the way it was intended: as a strategic military guideline to the Astartes with less religious adherance "If in situation A, you do B"  and more "If in situation A, it could prove prudent to do B". Most intact chapters would have been more than 1,000 marines anyways if you added up the numbers. Guillimans goal was to break the legions and split the Astartes into sizes that would no longer pose a single threat to the Imperium. 

 

Also it was Guilliman who basically kept the Ultramarines Legion around. IIRC, some official material mentioned that the XIIIth legion was still able to act as a space marine legion after the scouring if Guilliman so wished. There were still enough ties to draw together a significant part of descendants. I#m not 100% sure if that was still the case in the 41st millenium, though. 

 

So yeah, codes was amended and should now be used more as a guideline you should roughly stick to instead of being a set of hard rules.

it is mostly not. The old chapters from first, secound at other ealier foundings have bonds because they have a rich history. But there are 

many chapters whithout even knowing from which gene seed they are from. And others cut their relations with other chapters from their own gene seed, were destroyed. But still there are a few which have a good relation.

 

 

btw --- in old codex books there is stated exactly how the Codex arstartes works for numbers.

and a full strength chapter has about 1200 marines ( 1000 is just the easier number and the maximum of strength is mostly not the case).

Edited January 21, 2022 by Medjugorje