Thoughts from my last 2 games.

[Prot]

Unfortunately I didn't take a lot of pictures, and don't really have time to do full proper battle reports, so I just wanted to reflect on how things went.

 

Basically I used non-optimal lists, and I'm still experimenting. Nevertheless, my last two games were with the same list, and I won both against Death Guard, and AdMech.

 

My list is pretty basic; a battalion with a single 10 man crusader squad, 2 redeptors, Lt, Helbrecht, Chappy on bike. Most fire support comes from the 2 Rdmtrs and the 2 Impulsors with Melta, and a basic squad of Eradicators.

 

Some of the comments on the troops I'll make are based on my last 5 or so games because my list hasn't changed much.

 

- HQ's: I love Helbrecht, but I think it has been tempting for me to 'over reach' with him. For example we played a few scenarios with Typhus and Helbrecht did not do well in that match up. I've been cocky with him, and I don't mean having him in front of the army, I mean putting him against a challenge he can't handle. Also some bad luck: I charged an Admech chickenwalker and got one shotted by it. (He used a taser based strat and hit like a truck). I also really wish his +2 S value worked on himself!

 

The Emperor's champion is super fun, but dropped from the list. I think he should be an elite, and he has been temporarily replaced by my Castellan who actually does some good work for the army and is not horrid in CC.

 

Chappy: Litany wise I'm shocked how unlucky (?) I've been. The 5++ has really hardly had a real effect. The 6's for mortals has been replaced by the extra attack litany. Now I often use Litany of Hate as well (especially with Bombastic Delivery) combined with the extra attack can pay real dividends (plus it's an aura).

 

-Elites: I have a love / hate with Bladeguard. They feel mandatory in most marine lists, and I really want to like and play the Sword Brethren. That said I've forced myself to use the Brethren with their wonky loadout. Lately giving the Feast to the Hammer dude... And the relic sword to another guy in this squad. They do hit pretty hard, and I gave them Holy Orb last game. 

 

They charged into the 3 Deathguard Reaper Termies.... threw the orb, and it took literally every swing, every wound to kill them outright (also used the SB strat).

 

It's hard to get the mileage out of them. I think we really, really need something here... even a point reduction?

 

BGV are just solid again. They just last longer. Maybe this will change with Tau, but really they just work especially for Oath secondary as usual.

 

I'm still really wanting to get some Assault Hammer/Shield Termies in the mix!

 

Troops:

 

- So this is going to be controversial. I think one of my most economical units are Assault Intercessors. It had been true for me.... I can hide them easier. Fist of Balthus is great here.

 

- Primaris Crusaders. No idea what to do here. I remember saying I was putting shotguns on my 10 man squad and I don't regret it. They very rarely live to shoot them more than... 1-2 times at best? The squad loadout is tempting me to put a few of the flamers in it. The Neo's can die, the advancing squad can dual flame without loss of accuracy. It helps to shed low level screens (like Poxwalkers).

 

Right now my squad has Neo's with Shotguns and Initiates with chainswords, and the SB has a basic powersword. Usually I don't give the squad any relics either. 

 

Some questions:

- Anyone using the Champ as an HQ? 

- How many of you are using a dual Chappy set up? How critical do you think the BT Litanies are vs. the Marine Litanies?

- Crusader squad: Boring, and basic? Or do you load it up with anything? 

- One or two Crusader squads?

- Am I the only one using Impulsors? I think they are too expensive, but when you have Redemptors, no one really shoots at them. After they unload cargo (which can be after they move), you can still back them up and hold objectives (which my lists always lack.)

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[Tiger9gamer]

a list would be great to look over, but valuable info all the same! I can only really answer the chaplain thing and about the transports (ish)

so I use a lot of transports and havn't had a chance to build my impulsor yet, but I do like how it looks. I need to be more careful with my crusader on the field myself, as I always hold it and the VVets back turn 1. I need to be more aggressive with it, but the idea is the same I think. I love rhino transports because I know my guys inside will be protected barring abysmal rolls on the vehicle dying. having that protection for one or two turns is pretty good, plus the extra movement is great for my firstborn crusaders.

the BT litanies are a mixed bag. I don't really have a chance to use them alot because of the transport situation I mentioned, but in theory they would be great to buff up my vets or firstborn crusaders. I think using litany of hate when everyone is in vehicles is good because when they pop out, they get to re-roll to hit. a fun trick is to put divine protection on dreadnaughts too.

Hope my ramblings helped a little, but I am trying to figure out stuff myself! lost my last game only because of the mission, but otherwise I feel our army is good until the eldar and tau mess it up!

[Brother Kraskor]

Comments inserted in italics:

 

 

- HQ's: I love Helbrecht, but I think it has been tempting for me to 'over reach' with him. For example we played a few scenarios with Typhus and Helbrecht did not do well in that match up. I've been cocky with him, and I don't mean having him in front of the army, I mean putting him against a challenge he can't handle. Also some bad luck: I charged an Admech chickenwalker and got one shotted by it. (He used a taser based strat and hit like a truck). I also really wish his +2 S value worked on himself!

 

 

Have you found his big base makes it hard to Heroic Intervene, or do you charge more proactively? Also he gives +1S (I'm sure this is just a typo mind).

 

 

The Emperor's champion is super fun, but dropped from the list. I think he should be an elite, and he has been temporarily replaced by my Castellan who actually does some good work for the army and is not horrid in CC.

 

 

Agreed re: Elite. Or even better yet, he should take no slot above a certain PL/points cost. I think then he'd be in every list! 

 

 

Chappy: Litany wise I'm shocked how unlucky (?) I've been. The 5++ has really hardly had a real effect. The 6's for mortals has been replaced by the extra attack litany. Now I often use Litany of Hate as well (especially with Bombastic Delivery) combined with the extra attack can pay real dividends (plus it's an aura).

 

 

I've also had limited success with Divine Protection! And I go for Bombastic to pop Litany of Hate too. I prefer Fervent Acclamation as the 2nd but I know this is unpopular.

 

 

-Elites: I have a love / hate with Bladeguard. They feel mandatory in most marine lists, and I really want to like and play the Sword Brethren. That said I've forced myself to use the Brethren with their wonky loadout. Lately giving the Feast to the Hammer dude... And the relic sword to another guy in this squad. They do hit pretty hard, and I gave them Holy Orb last game. 

 

They charged into the 3 Deathguard Reaper Termies.... threw the orb, and it took literally every swing, every wound to kill them outright (also used the SB strat).

 

It's hard to get the mileage out of them. I think we really, really need something here... even a point reduction?

 

 

They need access to Storm Shields, which they won't get. Or maybe an ability to Advance and Charge, that would make them see a lot of use I think!

 

 

[Tokugawa]

If only having 1 primaris crusader squad, then it has similar function and cost to 1 10 men assault intercessor squad, but:

 

assault intercessor could go combat squads when facing blast weapons;

could fight twice;

is s better bearer of "fist of blathus".

 

And very few marine chapters play 10-men assault intercessor squads.

 

I think primaris crusader squad is a "bring multiple or bring none" thing.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m using the EC and in tandem with the Judicar they have generated a lot of quick kills… really nasty these two together. If he was an elite choice I’d take a second Chaplain.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea prot, the crusaders are one of those units that are good in high numbers and with the proper support, but aren't going to contribute the same way in your configuration. If you're going to use them as a flex chaf clearing unit, you might need an extra unit of tacs or assault intercessors or something to score the back line.

 

Sucks to hear the luck on the prayer, but as I'm sure you know from playing 8th death guard that when it's working for you the game goes to easy mode. Same thing with the 5+ invul for that matter.

 

Sword brethren seem very hard to make work, and unfortunately for how you made yours, I suspect the answer is either chainswords or power swords. I had a game I tried units of 4 with chainswords in impulsors as flanking/disruption to the back line and I found their 20 attacks enough to clear things like kommandos off without using strats.

 

As for your actual questions:

 

I tried a champion; belakor ate him lol.

 

For double chaplain I have a foot/Grimaldus as my caster, with +1 attack and 5++; tannhauser biker has +1 to wound in combat. The foot guy supports my assault terminators and will often use bombastic on turn 2 and 3 to fully buff them. The bike chaplain often works with my bladeguard and giving them +1 to wound makes up for their relatively low strength.

 

I mentioned this above, but crusaders are more of an archetype to plan around rather than a one off unit that really pays dividends. The winning builds just go all cheap melee on 14 man units with max neophytes.

 

What build of impulsor do you use? I use a ironhail array+multimelta on mine and it's worked very nicely as a bladeguard ferry. 2 might be a little too much. I'm of the opinion that templars have too much of their power tied up in their infantry defensive options, and if you aren't causing target priority headaches with them then you're not using a lot of the power of the supplement.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

I tried a champion; belakor ate him lol.

 

Belakor eats a lot of things… to me it doesn’t mean that much in this context.

[MegaVolt87]

x2 MSU of x5 intercessors w/ auto bolts and TH/PF and 1-2 10 man assault intercessor units seem like a more effective comp for BT troops over a crusader squad. SM need to lean on storm shield units just to stay on the board, regardless of chapter. No offense, primaris SB are bad, you are better off with TH+SS termi's, VV with shields or BGV. 

[Medjugorje]

at last i am here again and still unimpressed by this book. SB should hit on 2s because they are not good/tough enough to deserve any buff char and too bad to work alone. They should hit on 2s and to reach CC still have access to advance + charge. Without that they are not playable.

But as I heard from our local gaming stores (2 GW and one other) they are the most sold boxkit from the BT wave.

[Prot]

Thanks to everyone for sharing some thoughts and ideas. :tu:

 

the BT litanies are a mixed bag. I don't really have a chance to use them alot because of the transport situation I mentioned, but in theory they would be great to buff up my vets or firstborn crusaders. I think using litany of hate when everyone is in vehicles is good because when they pop out, they get to re-roll to hit. a fun trick is to put divine protection on dreadnaughts too.

Hope my ramblings helped a little, but I am trying to figure out stuff myself! lost my last game only because of the mission, but otherwise I feel our army is good until the eldar and tau mess it up!

 

I think the short answer is - I'm using transports so I'm better off with Aura type Litanies. (ALL of which are vanilla marine based and that kind of sucks.) So I ditch transports? Or assume no valid Litany until T2? 

 

From the BT flavour, Divine Protection (5++) , and Fires of Devotion (+1A).  But with transports, and deep striking, I'm thinking:

Vanilla Litaines:  Canticle of Hate (+2" Charges/+3" Consolidation), and Exortation of Rage (+2 to wound in CC.) 

 

The Exhortation of Rage is not an aura, but very handy in almost any CC situation.

 

I'm trying to stick with the BT Litanies, because they're just fun and thematic. But the reality is I probably got more out of them with my Outrider (primaris biker) based list with Chappy on bike. It made for a fun little deathstar. 

 

Oddly enough my White Scars did the above quite well, except a little better of course because of Advance + Charge, however, the BT relics are fantastic (and thematic).

 

So I have to decide how much I like transports. I love the idea of them, and the fact it gets me two more MM's is great. No one like shooting at them while the pair of Redemptors exist. That said, no Impulsors means absolutely no Sword Brethren. They're mediocre to begin with... on foot... just not a good vibe. 

 

If only having 1 primaris crusader squad, then it has similar function and cost to 1 10 men assault intercessor squad, but:

assault intercessor could go combat squads when facing blast weapons;
could fight twice;
is s better bearer of "fist of blathus".

And very few marine chapters play 10-men assault intercessor squads.

I think primaris crusader squad is a "bring multiple or bring none" thing.

 

This is starting to feel correct in my play experience. I had a goofy thought of making a 'shooty' Crusader Squad and just having them sit on an objective, maybe obscurred, but just covering for rear objectives and letting my other stuff go grab mid board. 

 

Not sure what to do here. Right now I am actually using them as a distraction carnifex. People might catch on but so far they fear this squad a little too much. It's been terrible in practice, but people think it's capable of far more than it is.

 

 

I’m using the EC and in tandem with the Judicar they have generated a lot of quick kills… really nasty these two together. If he was an elite choice I’d take a second Chaplain.

 

I've seen this Combo in a GT winning list. The funny thing is the guy using the Judiciar said it was more a function of holding a relic, and I've just swapped it for the Apothecary right now. I never have any CP, and Rites of War was a good call on the Judiciar in my Ultramarines, but with the BT I can't seem to find room for him!

 

 

Yea prot, the crusaders are one of those units that are good in high numbers and with the proper support, but aren't going to contribute the same way in your configuration. If you're going to use them as a flex chaf clearing unit, you might need an extra unit of tacs or assault intercessors or something to score the back line.

Sword brethren seem very hard to make work, and unfortunately for how you made yours,...

As for your actual questions:

I tried a champion; belakor ate him lol.

What build of impulsor do you use? I use a ironhail array+multimelta on mine and it's worked very nicely as a bladeguard ferry. 2 might be a little too much. I'm of the opinion that templars have too much of their power tied up in their infantry defensive options, and if you aren't causing target priority headaches with them then you're not using a lot of the power of the supplement.

 

Okay so Crusaders: If they have to be higher, are we talking Muti squads? Or 20 men big? At that point should I be using dual fists in a squad? Or just run them vanilla? (I only own 10 right now.)

 

Sword Brethren. Believe it or not I really like my configuration. It might be too heavy on buffs, but the hammer has been very big with Feast, and the Sword of Judgement in this squad is a huge double threat with the advantage of their strat thrown on top if possible. 

 

At this point if I were to change their config, I might just go with the 2 above + cheaper guys with chainswords, however the claws are fun and good with exploding 6's. At the end of the day (once again) Bladeguard are just darn solid with shields.... 

 

B'elakor is a beast for sure.... the EC is just a great model and I'd love getting him in close to a critical HQ, but how cinematic would have been if your EC (Sigismund) could have killed Belakor (winged daemon). Harks back to the Heresy war on terra!

 

My Impulsors are very vanilla. Just the MM's and Storm Bolters. I love them. I usually block off the middle of the table with them. In my other armies they would do rear guard, but in this army the MM is an amazing mid table threat often reaching the opponent's rear line with 24" shots. 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I'm REALLY considering ... hear me out.... Heavy Intercessors for rear guard in this army! It gets my troop validation taken care of without 'mis-using' an assault type unit. Before everyone collecting rolls their eyes at this I will say I do this with my Ultra's, and often I can cover 2 objectives with this squad. They are in Gravis (think strats/relic) and have a habit of sticking around a long time.

 

I don't know what to arm these ones with as I doubt they'd move too often (AP bolters are nice).

 

This would free up my list to be more aggressive. Though I am using one cheaper Intercessor squad right now for that role, but I don't trust their survivability at this point in 9th ed.

 

x2 MSU of x5 intercessors w/ auto bolts and TH/PF and 1-2 10 man assault intercessor units seem like a more effective comp for BT troops over a crusader squad. SM need to lean on storm shield units just to stay on the board, regardless of chapter. No offense, primaris SB are bad, you are better off with TH+SS termi's, VV with shields or BGV. 

 

Mega. I won't disagree with you. I can't honestly say the SB are good, but at least I have been able to make them functional. The BGV are fantastic, and they probably would get a little more mileage out of the Relics/strats BUT... let me say this:

 

Lately I put the BGV right up the middle, and try to bully the center of the table (Oath). This attracts SO much firepower I just put defensive buffs on them and the Apothecary is assigned there.

 

This totally frees up the SB in the Impulsor to be a sort of death squad. They have the relics, and Feast. This has actually worked if I'm careful.  Just food for thought.

 

I love the Termies idea, I just don't have any right now, and I am not keen on walking them up, and I think they need to be on the table for litanies. The VV with shields are just so common and I am waiting to see if GW slams the nerf hammer on them. So that leaves the SB being replaced by more BGV.... which is probably the most economical choice, but I'm trying to see how far I can get here, before giving into that idea.

 

at last i am here again and still unimpressed by this book. SB should hit on 2s because they are not good/tough enough to deserve any buff char and too bad to work alone. They should hit on 2s and to reach CC still have access to advance + charge. Without that they are not playable.

But as I heard from our local gaming stores (2 GW and one other) they are the most sold boxkit from the BT wave.

 

I have no doubt the SB sell like crazy. First of the kit is amazing. Secondly I think competitive players that often swap armies every 27 seconds are just proxying what they need and calling their 'rainbow marines' Templars for the next month or so.  So no one is going out and buying Intercessors anymore.... I assume at this point the SB are getting gobbled up by pure Templar players!

 

I know I posted a few pictures on my Instagram, blog etc and the feedback I get on the SB is much higher than the other squads. They get a lot of attention compared to the other units.

 

I agree though, a fix is very much needed for the SB. But I'm still trying.

 

Thanks again for the thoughts. I'm still just trying everything. Next up I gotta get  the Champ back in and grab me some Grimaldus action for my next game.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I use Judicar with the Oathkeeper WLT… nasty nasty !!

[Medjugorje]

With new Tau Transports are not worth it anymore - at least to this pointcosts. I hope we see a massive point drop for impulsors and even more for all other stuff. 

outrider Bikes would be so cool if they woul be 10 -15 points cheaper.

[Tiger9gamer]

Thanks to everyone for sharing some thoughts and ideas.

 

the BT litanies are a mixed bag. I don't really have a chance to use them alot because of the transport situation I mentioned, but in theory they would be great to buff up my vets or firstborn crusaders. I think using litany of hate when everyone is in vehicles is good because when they pop out, they get to re-roll to hit. a fun trick is to put divine protection on dreadnaughts too.

 

Hope my ramblings helped a little, but I am trying to figure out stuff myself! lost my last game only because of the mission, but otherwise I feel our army is good until the eldar and tau mess it up!

 

I think the short answer is - I'm using transports so I'm better off with Aura type Litanies. (ALL of which are vanilla marine based and that kind of sucks.) So I ditch transports? Or assume no valid Litany until T2? 

 

From the BT flavour, Divine Protection (5++) , and Fires of Devotion (+1A).  But with transports, and deep striking, I'm thinking:

Vanilla Litaines:  Canticle of Hate (+2" Charges/+3" Consolidation), and Exortation of Rage (+2 to wound in CC.) 

 

The Exhortation of Rage is not an aura, but very handy in almost any CC situation.

 

I'm trying to stick with the BT Litanies, because they're just fun and thematic. But the reality is I probably got more out of them with my Outrider (primaris biker) based list with Chappy on bike. It made for a fun little deathstar. 

 

Oddly enough my White Scars did the above quite well, except a little better of course because of Advance + Charge, however, the BT relics are fantastic (and thematic).

 

So I have to decide how much I like transports. I love the idea of them, and the fact it gets me two more MM's is great. No one like shooting at them while the pair of Redemptors exist. That said, no Impulsors means absolutely no Sword Brethren. They're mediocre to begin with... on foot... just not a good vibe. 

 

 

I'm not saying use the SM litanies, just saying plan on using your litanies either turn 2 after units get out of transports, or use them in creative ways. this is assuming a biker chaplain hiding out behind an impulsor or LRC full of stuff; Give one redemptor / Footslogging squad a 5+ FNP with divine protection, use litany of hate, and when people get out to charge you have at least a re-roll to hit buff on them. turn 2 you can put whatever you want on them.

 

OR, don't cast litanies in the command phase, use the fiery oratory strat, and when it's your command phase you can put any buff on a squad. Of course this is theoretical, but that is what I see as a general plan. 

 

as I said, I only have experience with rhinos. I'm spending 160 points on just two boxes to push units up the board (not counting my LRC) so that is largely where I am getting my ideas from.

 

Also, consider taking an apothecary for a foot slogging crusader squad. gives it a little more protection for cheap.

[Brother Kraskor]

I use Judicar with the Oathkeeper WLT… nasty nasty !!

 

I want to try this. Next to an EC. Suddenly you can cover off a lot of units defensively. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I wiped out two GK squads using this tactic my last game… EC had full chapter master rerolls. One of the squads destroyed was terminators -> really helped swing the game back clearing those dirty psykers out of my back lines.

[Brother Kraskor]

EC with CM re-rolls. 

[Prot]

I use Judicar with the Oathkeeper WLT… nasty nasty !!

 

Ah, very nice. With Ultra I was giving him a similar thing. I missed that he could use Oathkeeper here. Very cool. Quite a one/two punch with an EC!  I'm just so character heavy, but this is definitely on my to do list!

 

With new Tau Transports are not worth it anymore - at least to this pointcosts. I hope we see a massive point drop for impulsors and even more for all other stuff. 

outrider Bikes would be so cool if they woul be 10 -15 points cheaper.

 

Realistically, even without an invuln, we need to see Impulsors drop big time. They were a bit too much to begin with but if GW starts treating Invulns like this, there's far less value to them. (I can't imagine being a Knight player right now. I don't think I'll pull my Knights out for a looong time.)

 

Here's the thing though... if I take out the Impulsors, I'm taking out the Redemptors. The Redmptors buy the Impulsors a few turns. Having all 4 on the table, all in sight of your opponent, causes some difficult decisions on their part. No, it's not perfect but it has allowed me to play some fun units at least semi-competitively. 

 

Let's hope that CA approved helps this out... and yes, the Outriders would be great if cheaper. I really do like them. I've used them with a Bike Chappy and it's got some real potential in a BT army. (Just too expensive right now so I yanked it out of my lists.)

 

 

Thanks to everyone for sharing some thoughts and ideas.

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying use the SM litanies, just saying plan on using your litanies either turn 2 after units get out of transports, or use them in creative ways. this is assuming a biker chaplain hiding out behind an impulsor or LRC full of stuff; Give one redemptor / Footslogging squad a 5+ FNP with divine protection, use litany of hate, and when people get out to charge you have at least a re-roll to hit buff on them. turn 2 you can put whatever you want on them.

 

OR, don't cast litanies in the command phase, use the fiery oratory strat, and when it's your command phase you can put any buff on a squad. Of course this is theoretical, but that is what I see as a general plan. 

 

as I said, I only have experience with rhinos. I'm spending 160 points on just two boxes to push units up the board (not counting my LRC) so that is largely where I am getting my ideas from.

 

Also, consider taking an apothecary for a foot slogging crusader squad. gives it a little more protection for cheap.

 

 

I do use an Apothecary. It's just fantastic for BT. I think he should be in every list because he's better with BT, quite often bringing back a negative damage modifying sergeant with a relic to boot.

 

I agree on the Litanies. Just tossing out some ideas. As you suggest I pretty much plan for a turn 2 Litany set up since the typical thing I do is cast Protection on my Eradicators.... and that's it. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

at last i am here again and still unimpressed by this book. SB should hit on 2s because they are not good/tough enough to deserve any buff char and too bad to work alone. They should hit on 2s and to reach CC still have access to advance + charge. Without that they are not playable.

But as I heard from our local gaming stores (2 GW and one other) they are the most sold boxkit from the BT wave.

 

Yeah because their best usage is to give them Stormshields and call them BGV :-D

[Tokugawa]

And they are excellent kitbashing source.