Hate of 9th: Playing your Way

[Scribe]

 

Simple, and it works... Save all the extra stuff for Apocalypse. Actually, I think that didnt help the game, because of that everybody wanted to use superheavys and other stuff not suited for small games in every game they play, but thats another topic for the future... 

 

I was just laughing about this.

 

Turning the objectively worst game mode, Apocalypse, into the 'main line' 40K, sure sold a lot of kits, but its unbearable to go through the effort.

[Scribe]

 

Sure: go play Horus Heresy. Also 1-4 is Fundamentally not true. Who else remembers Eternal Warrior Chars of 6th and 7th. The Lysanders of Fifth. And USR stacking of literally every edition. Also DT always had a slot. Just previously unlisted.

 

 

My group did just that, for years all we played was HH, as 40K got progressively worse.

 

Just because there are bad USR's that shouldnt have happened, or undercosted units, doesnt mean that those systems are not fundamentally better, it just means (point 6) Sales guys got out of hand.

[MegaVolt87]

 

SNIP

 

 

 

 

4: Force Org Chart Matters! 2 HQ, 6 Troops, 3 Elites, 3 FA, 3 HS.

 

Can we just take a minute with point 4. The rule of three basically tunes any detachment to this old school FOC regardless. Not to mention limits on things now like SM cpt. That always makes me chuckle. 

 

Simple, and it works... Save all the extra stuff for Apocalypse. Actually, I think that didnt help the game, because of that everybody wanted to use superheavys and other stuff not suited for small games in every game they play, but thats another topic for the future... 

 

I look foward to posting about that topic when I see the thread.  

[tychobi]

9th (8.5 really) is the most popular edition of 40k ever. Full stop.  It may be showing some of its cracks and GW is having a hard time wrangling the rollout but over all 9th is well supported and popular.  I think OP may be getting passionate internet criticism muddled with the raw reality of the games support. 

 

That said 9th could use serious improvement on many fronts.  Rules access and simplification are good areas to focus on first in my opinion. 

[Scribe]

9th (8.5 really) is the most popular edition of 40k ever. Full stop.  It may be showing some of its cracks and GW is having a hard time wrangling the rollout but over all 9th is well supported and popular.  I think OP may be getting passionate internet criticism muddled with the raw reality of the games support. 

 

That said 9th could use serious improvement on many fronts.  Rules access and simplification are good areas to focus on first in my opinion. 

 

Nearly every 'entertainment' hobby I am involved in, that oddly enough can be engaged with either online, or indoors, or solo, is in its 'most popular edition' for the last few years.

 

Wonder why.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

Volt that why I am asking how an edition without strategems would approach the problem?

 

At its most basic.

 

1: USR's used heavily. This promotes balance.

2: Characters back into Units. No more Bubble/Aura Hammer.

3: Characters no longer WMD's. Less Hero Hammer, more Unit based.

4: Force Org Chart Matters! 2 HQ, 6 Troops, 3 Elites, 3 FA, 3 HS.

5: No more LoW/Flyer/Dedicated Transport. You fit in the FoC or you leave.

 

And finally?

 

6: Units are balanced around actual MATH, and not some Sales idiot saying 'we need to push 10K units of X'.

 

Its not rocket science, I'm sorry, it just isnt.

Sure: go play Horus Heresy. Also 1-4 is Fundamentally not true. Who else remembers Eternal Warrior Chars of 6th and 7th. The Lysanders of Fifth. And USR stacking of literally every edition. Also DT always had a slot. Just previously unlisted.

 

Units can only be buffed by one character per phase? Buffs dont apply to the joined unit? Only one character can join a unit? Plenty of ways to avoid abuse, less special rules on characters is another one. 

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

Sure: go play Horus Heresy. Also 1-4 is Fundamentally not true. Who else remembers Eternal Warrior Chars of 6th and 7th. The Lysanders of Fifth. And USR stacking of literally every edition. Also DT always had a slot. Just previously unlisted.

 

 

My group did just that, for years all we played was HH, as 40K got progressively worse.

 

Just because there are bad USR's that shouldnt have happened, or undercosted units, doesnt mean that those systems are not fundamentally better, it just means (point 6) Sales guys got out of hand.

 

That is an opinion first of all. Second of all then why complain about a system you don't play or not playing in good faith. I have a saying in any RPG I play with "I am playing (RPG). I am not playing (other RPG)." You constantly bemoan and complain about 9th edition and how its actively bad. But if you haven't even in good faith played the system, your making a comparison without a grounding. 

 

And Slaves you had that in 4th-7th. We still got character stars. And remember how many rules characters had in 4th to 7th that percisely because on a core level how abusable characters were. Every character that was taken was either T5 or had EW (Which was functionally Tanhausers). Beyond that in 8th-9th even the worst hero hammer character are frankly weak compared to 5th-7th SuperHeroes. 

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

I look foward to posting about that topic when I see the thread.  

 

Feel free to hit me up in messages about it, Ill be able to form a more coherent thread with a bit more insight into it other than just my opinion. 

[Noserenda]

Urgh, dont put characters back into units for the love of god, some of the stupidest, most convoluted rules have come out of that concept over the years that put the modern stuff totally to shame.

The best way to discourage, uh, tactically using characters as combined arms ( ;) ) is splash damage like d3 mortal wounds to untis within X" from a few effects like artillery or barrages to encourage you to spread out.

[Scribe]

Urgh, dont put characters back into units for the love of god, some of the stupidest, most convoluted rules have come out of that concept over the years that put the modern stuff totally to shame.

 

The best way to discourage, uh, tactically using characters as combined arms ( ) is splash damage like d3 mortal wounds to untis within X" from a few effects like artillery or barrages to encourage you to spread out.

 

Yeah I could get behind that. Give Blasts some teeth.

 

Second of all then why complain about a system you don't play or not playing in good faith.

 

Well because if it was good, I would play it.

 

EDIT: And I'll remind you, this is your thread. I didnt start a thread about how I hate 9th. :D

Edited January 19, 2022 by Scribe

[Slave to Darkness]

 

And Slaves you had that in 4th-7th. We still got character stars. And remember how many rules characters had in 4th to 7th that percisely because on a core level how abusable characters were. Every character that was taken was either T5 or had EW (Which was functionally Tanhausers). Beyond that in 8th-9th even the worst hero hammer character are frankly weak compared to 5th-7th SuperHeroes.  grounding. 

 

Yes, my 4th ed Nurgle army was filthy with the Characters, but, even with a disgustingly powerful army (Ill admit it, I used to be in Cobra Kai a WAAC guy back in the day) and I still got hammered as much as I won. My Lord and Bodyguard were the danger, my army was a delivery system to get them into combat, if I hit your deployment zone it was basically game over for you, BUT I had to get there first... Nothing was unbeatable. 

[Schlitzaf]

But you haven't played it. Nor gave it a good faith. So you are complaining or hating on a system you haven't touched. I could go to heresy threads and complain about character superhero squads or any number of things. I garuntee folks will go "well..." as a response

[Scribe]

But you haven't played it. Nor gave it a good faith. So you are complaining or hating on a system you haven't touched. I could go to heresy threads and complain about character superhero squads or any number of things. I garuntee folks will go "well..." as a response

 

So defend it? 9th is an iteration on 8th, which I did play, so tell me.

 

Why are Stratagems great? Why is 9th not overly complicated? Why are rules which negate other rules increasingly being used, and this is a good thing?

 

Why is it a good thing, that various Harlequin weapons, now require (rumor) a Stratagem to use the special rules?

Edited January 19, 2022 by Scribe

[Schlitzaf]

Because a generic troop unit just outright ignoring IV saves is a really really bad thing unless its a rare occurence

[Scribe]

Because a generic troop unit just outright ignoring IV saves is a really really bad thing unless its a rare occurence

 

Why, and why is 'ignore invulnerable saves' even a thing?

 

Is it possible the developers let the game get out of hand and this is a bandaid?

 

Why not simply limit the number of upgrades, or put an appropriate cost on them?

[Schlitzaf]

Pariahs, Vindicires, Vortex Grenade, Shock Attack Gun, C'Tan, Jaws, and more already did that in pre-6th edirion 40k.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

 

I look foward to posting about that topic when I see the thread.  

 

Feel free to hit me up in messages about it, Ill be able to form a more coherent thread with a bit more insight into it other than just my opinion. 

 

 

DM sent. 

[Wulf Vengis]

There was a save for Jaws based on a models initiative (i think) which made sense at the time since the ability was not causing damage so much as requiring something more like a d&d reflex save to avoid.

 

But each of those mentioned above were an exception too the rule and not the rule itself. This limited interaction left these abilities FEELING special and not overly broken and over powered.

 

These modern "ignore invulnerable save" abilities are however the rule and it's beginning to become a more and more common rule. This makes it feel like the creators just didn't know what else to do to make them viable/effective.

[Schlitzaf]

You had to roll equal to or under the model initiative yes. But the ignoring IV save wasn't that rare. 90% of the time the units that had it were garbage or pyskers. 

[MegaVolt87]

You had to roll equal to or under the model initiative yes. But the ignoring IV save wasn't that rare. 90% of the time the units that had it were garbage or pyskers. 

 

However, now such mechanics are more common and on more viable/ effective/ desirable units to boot. The pendulum is swinging in the other direction. You are bashing the old mechanics, but you aren't seeing them come back under a different name and being more over bearing in the newer iterations than their initial forms. 

[Scribe]

Pariahs, Vindicires, Vortex Grenade, Shock Attack Gun, C'Tan, Jaws, and more already did that in pre-6th edirion 40k.

 

You still are not answering the question's.

 

You started a thread called "Hate of 9th", why not start a thread "Defense of 9th" and demonstrate why these choices are good?

[Schlitzaf]

No I started the thresd asking why folks are olaying ninth and hate it. Then ask why you aren’t playing the other avenues avaliable to them. The answer is you don’t.

[Scribe]

No I started the thresd asking why folks are olaying ninth and hate it. Then ask why you aren’t playing the other avenues avaliable to them. The answer is you don’t.

 

I dont know, looking over your OP, I still dont see that, but ok.

[MegaVolt87]

No I started the thresd asking why folks are olaying ninth and hate it. Then ask why you aren’t playing the other avenues avaliable to them. The answer is you don’t.

 

This is such an easy one- when everyone in a local accessible community is only interested in matched/ tourny formats for 40k your options and choices are already made for you- participate or quit/. Its not unreasonable to want a balanced experience in a competitive format. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by MegaVolt87

[Slave to Darkness]

No I started the thresd asking why folks are olaying ninth and hate it. Then ask why you aren’t playing the other avenues avaliable to them. The answer is you don’t.

Because 9th is the current edition, and its hard to get games of older editions because no one plays them, people want to stay relevant. Go to your local GW and ask if you can play Rogue Trader, Warhammer Fantasy, Advanced Space Crusade, Space Marine/Titan Legions/OG Adeptus Titanicus, Space Fleet, Trolls in the Pantry, Dark Future or Spacefarers (any of you old Grognards remember that??)...