Death guard points change

[tychobi]

Hitting the scrumpy hard up in Nottingham it seems!   My guess is this move could be aimed at model count reduction. 

[Xenith]

Yea, seems like an internal shift to more plague marines/fewer poxies, ignoring external factors in army performance. 

[Bulwyf]

Plague marines needed to come down. The PBC did not need a point decrease. I don't understand these point changes tbh. The only one that makes sense to me is lowering the MBH because they are only average in friendly matched play games. You still would never bring them to a competitive game.

[dice4thedicegod]

Plague marines needed to come down. The PBC did not need a point decrease. I don't understand these point changes tbh. The only one that makes sense to me is lowering the MBH because they are only average in friendly matched play games. You still would never bring them to a competitive game.

I wonder if the driver was not so much raw datasheet power, so much as disabling an easy “to the last” secondary choice (as now deathshroud are more expensive than PBC)

[Tokugawa]

140pts MBH is just an over-reaction to multi-melta 9th rewrite. 130pts is slightly more reasonable, but not list cornerstone,too.

[Special Officer Doofy]

120pts would be the sweet spot but I'll take the 10pts reduction. I love running three haulers and using the 4++ relic and casting miasma on them. Even my brothers admech have a hard time shifting my group of 3 in the center. Also the models look sweet and nobody is a fan of monopose but for $25 even at full price I'm not complaining.

[Tokugawa]

If the ETB kits don't have any popular "competitive" weapon option then it is a problem(e.g. if ETB redemptor is still in production, players need difficult conversion to make it WYSIWYG). MBH don't have any option so no problem.

[Iron Sage]

Plague marines needed to come down. The PBC did not need a point decrease. I don't understand these point changes tbh. The only one that makes sense to me is lowering the MBH because they are only average in friendly matched play games. You still would never bring them to a competitive game.

So agree. The point reduction in PBCs are ludicrous and down right stupid. It was already a very good competitive unit, no point reduction needed. Meanwhile, predators, defilers and land raider which are over costed, are not touched. Too expensive weapon upgrades on plague marines not touched, probably needed to come down a point as well. Points hike on terminators also too much. Seems they can only think in 5s and 10s concerning points these days. Completely and utterly absurd point changed. Points hike on termies really hurting the faction. Blight spawn hike is okayish, but 90 points seem a bit much.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Iron Sage

[Dark Legionnare]

Having now finally seen it for real and not just made guesses based on the points being passed around second-hand online; my hopes were far and above, too reasonable, ergo, invalid, haha.

As a funny side note. That good ol' DR change we all love was writ large today after a dreadnought nearby did 1MW to a plaguecaster, and then in my turn he popped his own head off with a 3MW perils.  Man I miss that 5+++...

I already promised my other friend I won't take my GSC's sanctus/billy-the-nid against his DG.  They scythe through our non-invuln characters like butter without any Deathshroud to bodyblock; especially the poor plaguecasters with the "Here, have a perils" stratagem from the sanctus.

[Plaguecaster]

Yeah the fact plaguecasters don't have any save except their armour one is annoying even a 5+ inv save would be nice. Really makes you miss rhe blight bringer old relic giving inv save to unit next to him, apparently so powerful they had ro take it away only to give ones like black templars army wide 5+ inv saves for their vows to show different tactics in an army alrwsxyabkut different tactics, really makes me wish we had actual company rules that affected out whole army ot just a relic, stratagem and warlord trait / contagion that will only affected on model instead of our whole army

 

There is so much wrong with our codex instead GW only care about nerfing us when we try and use the only decent stuff our army is good for. Yes spamming poxwalkers and terminators should not be a viable option one which leads to balance changes but GW should sell is a damn DLC army of renown that basically is solely only about that completely. Forcing people to only use plague marines doesn't miraculously make plague marines better it just makes it so much more apparent GW don't care about balance for us and force nerfs on us

Edited January 28, 2022 by Plaguecaster

[Plague _Lord]

It is quite funny tbh.

Armies that get a invunerable save bubble:

Deathwatch with relic shield

Any space marine librarian

Dark Angels Azrael

CSM - noctilith crown and apostle prayers

 

Armies that get access to targetted invuns:

Necrons

New Tau (kind of - they can add drones to units that give them inv saves of a sort and they have those absurd strats of making damage of 1 attack go to damage 0...)

 

Armies that have army wide invuls:

Black Templars

Harlequins

New Craftworld Eldar (confirmed all aspect warriors get an invul so around 80% of codex comes with invul)

Drukhari

Skitarii Veteran Cohort

Daemons of Chaos

Custodes

1ksons

 

Armies for which access to invul saves are too op:

Death Guard

Imperial Guard

Non skitarii Admech (no ones plays this)

Orks

 

Maybe I left an army out but it seems if you have "guard" in you army name then you are screwed hah.

 

TBH the only thing not concering points that could bring us back into the competitive scene would be giving us -1 damage on all units again (so Land Raider, Rhino, Defiler, Predator and TBH I don't think helbrutes with -2 damage would be OP either - mine tend to die to anything that shoots at them at the moment.), giving the 5++ relic back to bellboy so anyone would actually use him and maybe giving plague marines actual plague bolters would make them at least interesting. TBH even the 5++ relic alone would do more for plague marines then these absurd points changes...

Edited January 28, 2022 by Plague _Lord

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Plague marines needed to come down. The PBC did not need a point decrease. I don't understand these point changes tbh. The only one that makes sense to me is lowering the MBH because they are only average in friendly matched play games. You still would never bring them to a competitive game.

And yet Don Hooson is doing just that for the LVO..?

 

The deathshroud change hurts more, I don’t feel like the changes are that bad. Maybe some of you are peeved because it means you can’t take the same lists you were? It’s understandable, but the game appears to be continuing to change. Meta constantly changes. Sometimes adapting is the answer.. Also, maybe being a little creative with the options DG has vs following the community consensus on what is or is not competitive.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

Plague marines needed to come down. The PBC did not need a point decrease. I don't understand these point changes tbh. The only one that makes sense to me is lowering the MBH because they are only average in friendly matched play games. You still would never bring them to a competitive game.

And yet Don Hooson is doing just that for the LVO..?

 

The deathshroud change hurts more, I don’t feel like the changes are that bad. Maybe some of you are peeved because it means you can’t take the same lists you were? It’s understandable, but the game appears to be continuing to change. Meta constantly changes. Sometimes adapting is the answer.. Also, maybe being a little creative with the options DG has vs following the community consensus on what is or is not competitive.

Don is an arrogant jerk who claims this point change is the best thing out for DG and it somehow makes us more viable and that plague marines don't deserve any decrease being perfect just the way they are

He plays daemon engine spam with Epidermis to make the blight haulers alot better and volkite dreads of course he will do well

The meta changes I understand that but I also expect at least balance and some effort to make less viable units more cost effective to make them more played. Does any of the changes do anything to plague marines or any other units in our codex that are over costed no. We got one decrease on crawlers simply to make it harder for us to use them for To The Last secondary and a small decrease to haulers that doesnt really change much.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Plaguecaster

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

Plague marines needed to come down. The PBC did not need a point decrease. I don't understand these point changes tbh. The only one that makes sense to me is lowering the MBH because they are only average in friendly matched play games. You still would never bring them to a competitive game.

And yet Don Hooson is doing just that for the LVO..?

 

The deathshroud change hurts more, I don’t feel like the changes are that bad. Maybe some of you are peeved because it means you can’t take the same lists you were? It’s understandable, but the game appears to be continuing to change. Meta constantly changes. Sometimes adapting is the answer.. Also, maybe being a little creative with the options DG has vs following the community consensus on what is or is not competitive.

Don is an arrogant jerk who claims this point change is the best thing out for DG and it somehow makes us more viable and that plague marines don't deserve any decrease being perfect just the way they are

He plays daemon engine spam with Epidermis to make the blight haulers alot better and volkite dreads of course he will do well

The meta changes I understand that but I also expect at least balance and some effort to make less viable units more cost effective to make them more played. Does any of the changes do anything to plague marines or any other units in our codex that are over costed no. We got one decrease on crawlers simply to make it harder for us to use them for To The Last secondary and a small decrease to haulers that doesnt really change much.

 

He seems like a friendly enough guy in his interactions on the Facebook DG group.. Regardless of his personality though, he at least looks at the game in different ways and I’m willing to bet wins more competitive games than you or me, so what’s with the haterism?

 

I swear once upon a time this forum and it’s members were so much better and more mature.. 

[Sherrypie]

Personal attacks never contribute much to constructive discussion, regardless of how one feels about more prominent players. For what it's worth, to my eyes Don has seemed like an amicable fellow and quite undeserving of any drive-by insults.

 

The point itself is still worth thinking about. I do not like the points drop on the PBC for the purposes of affecting the To the Last secondary, or any secondary for that matter. Missions and game setups change, the points should be a rough balancing factor regardless of how the battle is conducted. Currently, the pricing of our armour pool is out of whack with the traditional marine vehicles being outright bad choices. This does not feel conducive to a varied and inspiring set of tools to make an army from and has somewhat decreased my enthusiasm to play 40k as it stands, which is a shame. I'll probably play a few games to see what the situation is, but might end up just enjoying other games for this year and wait to see how things develope.

[Relentless]

Was really hoping for some help in the dataslate but DG got nothing lmao

[KingYertle]

Death Guard were well represented at the LVO having the 6th highest faction count among all players.  They posted a combined 41% win rate.  Of the 32 "factions" represented, Death Guard tied for the 4th WORST win percentage, beating only Asuryani (37%), Codex Space Marines (36%) and Poor IG (35%).  And that's before the point increase to our infantry.  

 

I think its pretty obvious that the primary goal of the Death Guard point changes was to make DG players shelf their armies and try something new.  Using Points adjustments to pad sales is nothing new, GW's been doing it from Day 1, but man its frustrating.  Especially when you're other army is IG and completely unplayable...

 

At least there is Crusade Play.  Oh wait GW wasn't done with the Death Guard beating:

 

Death Shroud +2 PL, for a total of 9PL!!!

Poxwalkers x10 +1P

Blighthauler - No Change

Blightlords - No Change

PBC Down -1PL to 8 total.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Death Guard were well represented at the LVO having the 6th highest faction count among all players.  They posted a combined 41% win rate.  Of the 32 "factions" represented, Death Guard tied for the 4th WORST win percentage, beating only Asuryani (37%), Codex Space Marines (36%) and Poor IG (35%).  And that's before the point increase to our infantry.  

 

I think its pretty obvious that the primary goal of the Death Guard point changes was to make DG players shelf their armies and try something new.  Using Points adjustments to pad sales is nothing new, GW's been doing it from Day 1, but man its frustrating.  Especially when you're other army is IG and completely unplayable...

 

 

Don't you think factors like individual player skill needs to be considered instead of just posting a win/loss statistics..? Raw data doesn't serve any constructive purpose if no attempts is made to unpack the why's and the how's and can be very misleading... Don Hooson went 4-2 with his DG list which included 6 units apparently considered sub par (blight haulers) by the community here. He fully admitted the first loss was due to poor game play on his part.. 

 

I seriously don't understand why so many have to be "doom and gloom" all the time? The game is not all about comp all the time.. DG was one of the strongest factions at the beginning of 9th and continues to be one of the strongest chaos factions. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

I seriously don't understand why so many have to be "doom and gloom" all the time? The game is not all about comp all the time.. DG was one of the strongest factions at the beginning of 9th and continues to be one of the strongest chaos factions.

Not saying I'm super competitive, but telling people that spend all that money on their plastic and all that time painting their army to not be competitive in a game where one person wins and one person loses might fall on deaf ears. Specially with that reasoning. DG was good at the beginning, when it was one of the few factions with their new codex. Pretty much every codex that came out after is much stronger. And of course it continues to be one of the strongest chaos factions, only thousand sons has their new codex. Chaos knights, daemons and regular chaos marines are still sitting on 8th edition codexes, there would be far more complaining if those 8th edition codexes were doing better than a new 9th one...

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

I seriously don't understand why so many have to be "doom and gloom" all the time? The game is not all about comp all the time.. DG was one of the strongest factions at the beginning of 9th and continues to be one of the strongest chaos factions.

Not saying I'm super competitive, but telling people that spend all that money on their plastic and all that time painting their army to not be competitive in a game where one person wins and one person loses might fall on deaf ears. Specially with that reasoning. DG was good at the beginning, when it was one of the few factions with their new codex. Pretty much every codex that came out after is much stronger. And of course it continues to be one of the strongest chaos factions, only thousand sons has their new codex. Chaos knights, daemons and regular chaos marines are still sitting on 8th edition codexes, there would be far more complaining if those 8th edition codexes were doing better than a new 9th one...

 

 

Bro.. if all you were concerned about was being competitive than maybe you should have been more cautious on which army you picked? Sucks to suck...

 

For the majority of the people in this hobby, they picked an Army they *liked* not something they invested in to compete with. I never eluded to what you're claiming, so I don't know what you're reading into. This hobby is not only about playing competitively. If that's all you want to do is be a competitive player, then spend even more money to be a meta chaser. You can't have it all, all of the time.

 

Go ahead and venture into the loyalist forum too, and reading all the  -ing and complaining about how C:SM didn't win enough at LVO and need a new codex because they are garbage now.. Is every Army supposed to be the best all the time every time? Enough with the have it all fantasy-land mentalities. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Special Officer Doofy]

Bro..

Not your Bro guy.

 

if all you were concerned about was being competitive than maybe you should have been more cautious on which army you picked? Sucks to suck...

 

For the majority of the people in this hobby, they picked an Army they *liked* not something they invested in to compete with. I never eluded to what you're claiming, so I don't know what you're reading into. This hobby is not only about playing competitively. If that's all you want to do is be a competitive player, then spend even more money to be a meta chaser. You can't have it all, all of the time.

 

I prefaced my statement with saying I was not super competitive. But if I'm playing a game that is literally win or lose, I'm going to try and win. When I said people put all the time and money into an army, I never said it was to "chase the meta", just that it does indeed "suck to suck" when GW can't balance their game. Death Guard's win rate is below 50%. They did not need to increase the cost of terminators and poxwalkers.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Putrid Choir

[Balerion84]

Eh... Bloody Legionnare, do you play DG or some other faction?

 

I just dusted off my dg after a few months, to try out the new points against my own custodes. Opponent decided to try Shadowkeepers. It was depressing.

 

I honestly don't understand the points changes... if PMs went down at the same time while termies and poxwalkers went up, then sure, fine... I'm really not sure how I'm going to play my dg, I don't have transports for PMs and even then it's another big tax on an already expensive unit that goes down so easily.

 

If GW wants people to play more PMs, make them cheaper for goodness sake. Making our only viable options more expensive (or ineligible for TTL) is just going make the army weaker. If I didn't play PMs before, why would I do it now if they are still the same?

It just decreases the options I have.

 

Frustrating.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Eh... Bloody Legionnare, do you play DG or some other faction?

 

I just dusted off my dg after a few months, to try out the new points against my own custodes. Opponent decided to try Shadowkeepers. It was depressing.

 

I honestly don't understand the points changes... if PMs went down at the same time while termies and poxwalkers went up, then sure, fine... I'm really not sure how I'm going to play my dg, I don't have transports for PMs and even then it's another big tax on an already expensive unit that goes down so easily.

 

If GW wants people to play more PMs, make them cheaper for goodness sake. Making our only viable options more expensive (or ineligible for TTL) is just going make the army weaker. If I didn't play PMs before, why would I do it now if they are still the same?

It just decreases the options I have.

 

Frustrating.

 

I have about 13 Armies in my 40k collection. I no longer play the army I started with (Space Wolves) because I do not like how they have played from 7th edition on and have decided to focus on different collections/armies. The army I'd like to play the most is KDK which I no longer have the ability to play at all.. speaking of being salty and not being able to use a collection of models I've spent a lot of time painting and collecting. 

 

All of the armies in my collection are factions I *wanted* to collect and play and have nothing to do with their competitive potential. 

 

Competitive 40k meta is cyclical.. regardless of how you think your army plays there's always another faction in the game where that exact player base community is doing just as much if not more complaining than what we see here. DG are head and shoulders above what the majority of CSM has been for multiple editions now. They are in a much better place than several C:SM armies are, now. Again.. I'm saying competitively. None of the point changes mean you can't enjoy good games with friends. What blows my mind is there's worse moaning coming from here about the changes than I see from people who *actually* go to the big events and play on a consistent basis. 

 

I don't think the point changes are that big of a deal other than for the Deathshroud, which does suck.. sure. I see it as an opportunity to try new things out that other players refuse to try because hordes of poxwalkers look better on paper than hordes of PMs do. I'd much rather accept the challenge of building a new list than sticking to what other people tell me I need to do just to have a playable DG army. I also don't give a  about what most of the people on this forum think a list needs to be competitive. I'm completely content buying and playing with the models/units I like. 

[Balerion84]

Yes, that's all very nice and noble, "accepting the challenge of building a new list", but the problem is, there's not that many options for DG to build lists. Especially if you want to have a good game. PMs were always overcosted for what they bring even in casual games (the ones I play). Making the only other options more expensive won't make PMs cheaper or more viable.

 

We are talking here about nonsensical points changes for an army that was already running out of steam a few months ago. The options for building lists got even worse now. So you can accept all the challenges you like, the fact is, as a dg player, my options are now worse than before.

 

I'd looove to play PMs instead of poxwalker hordes. I don't particularly like poxwalkers. But I can't, because PMs always failed me. So now I either stick with poxwalkers and get even less models on the table to make up the difference in codex power or I go the way of vehicle spam and then we are at the other side of the same coin as horde spam.

 

And I don't get the point of bringing up complaints from people with 8th codexes to show dg players, that some armies are worse off? What does that have to do with anything?

You can compare dg situation with necrons or SM and that'd be fine, because they all are in not so great place (necrons at least got 2 rounds of significant buffs).

CSM doesn't matter to me now. We can speak about complaints regarding csm after they get their new codex.

 

EDIT: CSM did MUCH better than DG at LVO. Around 50% win rate to 41% for DG. That's BEFORE these new points. Let that sink in.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Balerion84

[Wulf Vengis]

The sales machine that is GW cares not about complaints, only for the income unhappy players will pour into a new faction once their chosen faction is made unplayable.