Adeptus Custodes competitive results and state of play

[Captain Idaho]

I've seen a few low level tournament results come through that shows Adeptus Custodes are performing quite well with the new Codex, as well as anecdotal commentary of personal games where they are busting chops.

 

It's very early days as it often takes time to get to grips with an opponent in a tournament setting, plus we don't know if these are trends, anomalies or whether the other big performing lists were available in smaller events.

 

Another factor is the upcoming Tau. It seems to me a paper rock scissors situation right now; either we get into combat or we don't and thus win or get wiped. I might be wrong but much of the Tau firepower looks designed to wipe out Custodes specifically.

 

Please share your thoughts on this everyone! What's your experience locally and what do you know of tournament results?

[duz_]

LVO saw good wicket by the custards

One making the finals and then playing strongly overall

I suspect some of that is new codex syndrome and people will soon adapt

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I know the army is useful on the tabletop, but one thing I suspect is people aren't sure how to handle them just yet and also with the move towards infantry heavy armies the Custodes are better suited to chopping through them.

 

I can imagine a Tau army with Battlesuits, 2 Hammerheads and Broadsides will cause a lot of problems for Custodes...

[Kobrakei]

I've seen chatter online that Custodes are going to struggle with CA 2022 due to the new secondaries, but I don't see this happening at all. We should be taking Stranglehold, Grind and an open third slot, but being able to switch off re-rolls and dump transhuman onto a small selection of units in armies for 1CP with a way to regenerate those, leaves so many CP open to turn your characters into unkillable beasts, and although the Tau are looking good and a decent threat, once you close them down you'll be able to bully them off objectives they'll have no real ability to take back. Custodes are going to be in a very good place for a while yet.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I have a miserable time every time I play against Custodes.

 

I hate, HATE playing against them with a burning passion.

 

My biggest problem with Custodes is there is no viable counterplay to them. Small arms bounce off their T5/2+/3 wounds.  Big guns bounce off their 4++.  MW bounce off their new FnP.  They have the ability to shut down any truly threatening shooting with the combination of their transhuman and stratagem which denies rerolls.  They can play the objective game because of their ability to bring cheap objective snaggers (Sisters) and their native Ob Sec abilities.  They just do everything and they are more than reasonably priced for it.

 

Combined with the fact that the entire army is marketed towards people that don't want to purchase and/or build and/or paint many models*, which I find contrary to the ethos of this hobby.

 

I will avoid playing Custodes in my local escalation league, and the next time I go up against them in a tourney I may very well just concede and take a break/get something to eat so I can rest and be ready for whatever game comes after that.

 

I expect to be criticized and decried for my sentiments here, but that's an honest assessment of how I feel after multiple games with Custodes over 9th edition, which EVERYBODY seems to be playing because they are the ultimate point and click army. 

 

I haven't had as much an NPE since D-weapon Eldar in 7th edition.

 

 

*and not in a good way, unlike, for example, Imperial Knights, where each model is intended to be an art project/centerpiece all by itself. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I have a miserable time every time I play against Custodes.

 

I hate, HATE playing against them with a burning passion.

 

My biggest problem with Custodes is there is no viable counterplay to them. Small arms bounce off their T5/2+/3 wounds. Big guns bounce off their 4++. MW bounce off their new FnP. They have the ability to shut down any truly threatening shooting with the combination of their transhuman and stratagem which denies rerolls. They can play the objective game because of their ability to bring cheap objective snaggers (Sisters) and their native Ob Sec abilities. They just do everything and they are more than reasonably priced for it.

 

Combined with the fact that the entire army is marketed towards people that don't want to purchase and/or build and/or paint many models*, which I find contrary to the ethos of this hobby.

 

I will avoid playing Custodes in my local escalation league, and the next time I go up against them in a tourney I may very well just concede and take a break/get something to eat so I can rest and be ready for whatever game comes after that.

 

I expect to be criticized and decried for my sentiments here, but that's an honest assessment of how I feel after multiple games with Custodes over 9th edition, which EVERYBODY seems to be playing because they are the ultimate point and click army.

 

I haven't had as much an NPE since D-weapon Eldar in 7th edition.

 

 

*and not in a good way, unlike, for example, Imperial Knights, where each model is intended to be an art project/centerpiece all by itself.

>Their new FNP

 

Which...is only on one of their shield hosts.

 

They have no psychic phase. And incredibly underwhelming shooting phase.

 

 

Honestly, armies being able to throw away their troops or infantry to road block (always make custodes charge you unless you can near enough guarantee to kill them or tied them up).

 

Custodes have few enough units to know exactly what units hard counter their units.

 

 

Sword and board? Something High toughness lots of wounds heck mauler fiends I think take 3 or 4 turns for custodes to chop through.

 

Spear? Road block with chaff and ap2 gun them down.

 

Dreads? Las cannon melta gun or mostly...ignore and focus infantry down. Dreads can't hold anymore.

 

The most competitive part of custodes right now in the LVO is amazing players and really good terrain set up for them to make good approaches.

 

Know what messes up custodes unlike every other army?

 

Armour. Even rhinos force either bikes which are way more expensive to use shots on them.

 

The current meta is hugely advantageous for custodes who are troop mulchers.

 

You are welcome to walk away from a custodes opponent but I just see the challenge in fighting a competent player.

 

My two pesos.

[9x19 Parabellum]

1. Emperor's Chosen will be among the most common as that shield host AMAZINGLY shores up their most glaring (actually only) weakness.

2. Lots of armies roll without psykers, that means nothing in and of itself.

3. Custodes mulch anything you throw out to 'roadblock' them, especially and in particularly, chaff.

4. vs. Sword and Board. And just how many of these do you think an opponent will have?   Especially after they get eliminated by 38" threat range salvo launcher praetors.

5. vs. spear...again...just how many str 5 or higher ap-2 guns do you think an opponent has?

6. Dreads. Agreed. I'm not super worried about dreads.

-.  I see you failed to mention Praetors...now with more wounds and cheaper than ever before.

7. Competent players...right and why do you think the most competent players are drawn to them? Because they are one of the best armies out there is why.  (or at least that's what my prediction is)

8. Armor.  Lol.  2 x 3 praetors + dawneagle captain obliterated one of my Red Dreads in Saturday tourney, and reduced the other to lowest bracket.  That's Black Templar redemptors, by the way, with a 5++ from Uphold the Honor.

 

In my opinion you are making the classic mistake of conceiving and theorizing hard counters to Custodes if a person specifically tailors a list to deal with Custodes, which, I hasten to add, I agree is very possible.  The problem is that you can't do that and be successful in any kind of tourney competitive setting. 

[duz_]

This discussion might be getting a bit to specific, bordering tactica vs the OP of Custodes performance in general.

[9x19 Parabellum]

hey Duz, the OP asked this question at the end of his original post:

 

"Please share your thoughts on this everyone! What's your experience locally and what do you know of tournament results?"

As best I can tell I'm doing exactly that. (At least, I am attempting to do that and heed the spirit of the thread, even if it's not what Custodes players necessarily want to hear.)

 

That being said, I'll attempt to be a bit more objective / factual.

 

We had a 10 man tourney this last Saturday.   Here's a link to the game results:

 

https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/event/2t0t0vfv?round=1&embed=false

 

I played Black Templar.

 

I tabled my first opponent (Necrons), 100-22
Was beat by Custodes in Game 2, 91-36

Forced a turn 4 concession against Harlequins in Game 3, 92-30

 

The last game would have been a perfect score, but my opponent conceded, and I think he might have done this as a form of soft collusion to deny me points as he's close friends with the Custodes player and his brother (Death Guard player).

 

Death Guard came in first (Morty list with 2x PBC, 2x MBH, 2x BLT and poxwalkers + couple other characters).

I came in 2nd with Black Templar, but that's ONLY because the Custodes player conceded at the beginning of Game 3 because he didn't want to play against his brother playing the Death Guard list, so the score in that game was 100-0.  If he had scored just 44 points in that game, he would have edged me out of 2nd place.

 

So, standing and scores aside, fighting both Necrons and Harlies was like playing on EZ mode compared to Custodes.  I don't care about the rankings/placing, and I don't mind losing, but there was simply nothing I could do against him, no strategy that would have proved effective.

Edited February 1, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Captain Idaho]

Combined with the fact that the entire army is marketed towards people that don't want to purchase and/or build and/or paint many models*, which I find contrary to the ethos of this hobby.

 

*and not in a good way, unlike, for example, Imperial Knights, where each model is intended to be an art project/centerpiece all by itself. 

I support you right to raise concerns about an army you feel unbalanced, but I take exception to this. It makes assumptions on the types of people who collect models, how many models they collect and whether they have any OTHER collections they lovingly invest in. What's more, it's just not accurate. Each Custodes model has a level of detail and embellishment that equal that of characters of other armies, so the effort involved to paint an army is no less than that of collectors of other armies anyway.

 

Worst of all, you're deliberately disparaging those who collect Custodes, minimising their value to the community.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Combined with the fact that the entire army is marketed towards people that don't want to purchase and/or build and/or paint many models*, which I find contrary to the ethos of this hobby.

 

*and not in a good way, unlike, for example, Imperial Knights, where each model is intended to be an art project/centerpiece all by itself. 

I support you right to raise concerns about an army you feel unbalanced, but I take exception to this. It makes assumptions on the types of people who collect models, how many models they collect and whether they have any OTHER collections they lovingly invest in. What's more, it's just not accurate. Each Custodes model has a level of detail and embellishment that equal that of characters of other armies, so the effort involved to paint an army is no less than that of collectors of other armies anyway.

 

Worst of all, you're deliberately disparaging those who collect Custodes, minimising their value to the community.

 

 

Idaho, I can't deny you're right here.  The remarks are disparaging and I can't pretend they aren't.  I will / do own that.  

 

At the same time, I can't simply ignore the fact that in the remarks of everyone I've ever seen play Custodes, there is always a nod about how "I only had to buy / paint 25 models and I'm all set LOLOLOL!"  In fact it's often used as a selling point for new people to get into the hobby.

 

I have no issue with people looking to be as frugal as possible within their own budgets, and Custodes is an affordable way to get into the hobby. But, while I see people PASSIONATE about Sisters, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Guard, their various Chaos Legions, pretty much every army, I've actually never seen or heard talk passionately about how they love Custodes.  I've never seen a LOVINGLY painted Custodes army. They play Custodes because they are easy to buy, easy to paint, and (lately) powerful.  That's my observation and experience. How do I refine my position then?  How do I express that without disparaging others?

Edited February 1, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Captain Idaho]

Well it's slightly off topic, so probably best to keep it to another thread as this is about gaming. ;)

 

I'll reply with my thoughts on your gaming points later.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

9x19, What I'm interested in, is did you play against custodes players that have fielded the army for years? Or a bunch of unpainted plastic newbies?

 

Given accounting, it seems clear to me you were not facing off against people new to custodes. But people who were able to consolidate information early and adapt lists and play styles.

 

 

Which does indeed make it very easy to discount these....angry and disparaging takes.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Hellex_The_Thanatar

[duz_]

First and final warning on this thread.

 

Keep on topic and stay constructive. That doesn't mean you can't have dissenting opinions, but it does mean there is no room for disparaging comments.
Per the forum rules:
 

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None of these types of behaviors are conducive to constructive discussion. There are going to be times when you disagree with someone and/or when you dislike someone or something, but you either need to express yourself constructively or you need to ignore/stay out of the discussion.

You don't have to actually respect everyone and everything, but you must treat them with respect here at the Bolter & Chainsword.

 

 
 

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How do I refine my position then?  How do I express that without disparaging others?

 

To your question Parabellum, as my mother used to say: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

Edited February 2, 2022 by duz_

[9x19 Parabellum]

9x19, What I'm interested in, is did you play against custodes players that have fielded the army for years? Or a bunch of unpainted plastic newbies?

 

Given accounting, it seems clear to me you were not facing off against people new to custodes. But people who were able to consolidate information early and adapt lists and play styles.

 

 

Which does indeed make it very easy to discount these....angry and disparaging takes.

 

The individual I played at the tourney this Saturday is a good player, and I've played him many times before.  He is without a doubt a very competent player.  But I've never beaten his custodes.  In fact I've never beaten any custodes player. Ever. Including newbies with unprimed models, or the obligatory Retributor gold primed.

Edited February 2, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Galthan Ironsturm]

 

 

9x19, What I'm interested in, is did you play against custodes players that have fielded the army for years? Or a bunch of unpainted plastic newbies?

 

Given accounting, it seems clear to me you were not facing off against people new to custodes. But people who were able to consolidate information early and adapt lists and play styles.

 

 

Which does indeed make it very easy to discount these....angry and disparaging takes.

The individual I played at the tourney this Saturday is a good player, and I've played him many times before. He is without a doubt a very competent player. But I've never beaten his custodes. In fact I've never beaten any custodes player. Ever. Including newbies with unprimed models, or the obligatory Retributor gold primed.

You can play T'au ! ^^

 

How do u do to loose against beginner players???

Custodes are strong, thats right, but not to win 100% games.

 

the right question to ask is: do you play correctly against the Custodes?

or are you blind and blocked in front of them? the golden armor no doubt

[Captain Idaho]

From what I can tell, Custodes are a very powerful force in some aspects but very weak in others. Long range firepower and spreading across the board are particular weaknesses to them, as is damage reduction on multiple wounds.

 

A particular strength of Custodes is taking them on head on and their capacity in killing enemy Elites (barring perhaps the aforementioned damage reduction abilities, of course).

 

The way the game has gone, people are taking infantry heavy armies which instantly favours Custodes, especially if you're an elite infantry army. Space Marines without vehicles are asking to take on the Custodes on their terms. Melee Space Marines without vehicle support are doubly doing so.

 

That's not to make sweeping statements of course; a melee oriented force can do very well against Custodes especially if they overwhelm them or spread them out to pick them off piecemeal. It's 40K, things happen!

 

I would say I'd have to see a list of an individual to determine what the issue is, or at least narrow it down. I certainly don't think fighting Space Marines is an automatic win, but I do feel 9x19 Parabellum has a point in the uphill struggle of some types of armies versus Custodes. If I was in a tournament, I would much prefer to fight against Marines and all their variants with my Custodes than Dark Eldar or Adeptus Mechanicus. Lord have mercy on me if I ended up against Tau!

 

I do feel that the win rate of the Custodes in tournaments will take a while to settle as people rebuild their armies to be able to face Custodes, with the overall competitive power of Custodes in both casual and tournament settings being fairly leveled out in time.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

You can play T'au ! ^^

 

How do u do to loose against beginner players???

Custodes are strong, thats right, but not to win 100% games.

 

the right question to ask is: do you play correctly against the Custodes?

or are you blind and blocked in front of them? the golden armor no doubt

 

 

1. Yes, I have a T'au army.  Can't wait to get the codex this weekend.

2. "How do I lose to beginner players?"   This is exactly my point.  I don't claim to be a great player, but I am competent.  I regularly place in the top 3 at all the local tourneys I attend, and I placed 2nd at Pax Unplugged in Philly two years in a row before Covid shut everything down.   And you might say "well, big fish in small pond", and that could very well be true...but shouldn't my performance be consistent in that small pond across all armies even if that's my only universe of play?

3. "Do I play against Custodes correctly?" Apparently not, but I can't see that there is any strategy to playing Custodes except "hope he doesn't roll 1's on his armor saves"

Edited February 2, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Captain Idaho]

Well if it comes down to not rolling ones, then I'm screwed!

 

I suspect and I say this with respect, if you really believe playing Custodes just comes down to them rolling badly, then you likely haven't worked out how to play against them.

[Galthan Ironsturm]

My advices :

 

1/ saturation.

 

the more saves there are to launch, the more chance there is to miss them...

 

and if these attacks have AP penalties (AP2 or 3), it's even more true!

 

2/ shoot until the target is completely destroyed.

 

the low number of units and figurines is a weak point to exploit to the maximum.

 

All weapons with multi-Wounds are good!

Melta, multi-melta, plasma gun on overheat...

[Karhedron]

Custodes do seem to lack a class of weapon to which they are specifically vulnerable but that just means they are most vulnerable to "all-rounder" weapons. I am thinking things like Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, the revised Shuricannons etc. They are usually wounding on a 4+ or even 3+, their AP is enough to push Custodes down to 3+ or even 4+ without being wasted by their Invulnerable save and they have high rate of fire or 2D meaning weight of dice will push some damage through.

 

Best of all, these weapons are usually fairly cheap and can be taken in large numbers. They are also fairly relevant to the meta as they also threaten things like Drukhari skimmers and the masses of T5 infantry that are cropping up everywhere.

[dice4thedicegod]

I haven’t played against newstodes yet, but I’ve killed some with necrons… just make them take ap-2 saves… lots of them. And sprinkle some mortal wounds.

 

The big thing is… don’t play their game. Marines often want to jostle for midfield- that’s just what Custodes want.