9th Edition Black Legion Rumors

[techsoldaten]

Time for a thread to discuss 9th ed Codex rumors specific to Black Legion.

 

Here's a link to the main rumor thread.

 

The basics:

 

- CSM get doctrines similar to those of Loyalists, instead of an AP modifier it's exploding 6s.

- Icons became a little more interesting.

 

Black Legion Legion Traits:

 

- Ignore Combat Attrition. Essentially, the old Fearless rule.

- +1 to hit when shooting / charging the closest unit.

- Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons get exploding 5s. (Probably tied to the Doctrine step.)

 

A few notable changes:

 

- Chosen are now 3W and can take Thunderhammers.

- Raptors get +2A.

 

Honestly, an extra shooty army that ignores attrition doesn't sound bad. Would need to see the rules for Abaddon and Haarken before constructing a list, but I could see Raptors, Terminators and Chosen in heavy rotation.

 

 

 

 

[Prot]

For sure... it sounds like from this that it would bring Black Legion into a more respectable place. 

 

Personally I prefer a ruleset that lends an army to flexibility over being omnipotent in one form of play. This seems to help accomplish that.

 

I thought I read there was a way to get an AP increase on Rapid fire/assault weapons? I do love exploding 5's as a concept. Overcharged Plasma with full rerolls gets funkier for sure.  

 

It just appears the most beneficial weaponry will belong to baseline infantry for Black Legion. So maximizing it is going to be interesting. I hope Oblits fit that criteria but that's probably a longshot.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Rules remind me a lot of the Dark Angels rules, I wonder if there'll be more that trends in that direction.

 

I've only done one game with the 8E rules, so I'm still very much figuring out how I want to create my Black Legion army.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

+1 to hit is such a huge buff to leverage that it seems like BL will be capable in close combat as well as shooting.  This makes me think that any unit that does both well will be strong.  Terminators, defilers, and oblits ought to be spicy.  

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Rules remind me a lot of the Dark Angels rules, I wonder if there'll be more that trends in that direction.

 

I've only done one game with the 8E rules, so I'm still very much figuring out how I want to create my Black Legion army.

If you're encouraged by similarities to Dark Angels, I'd suggest making a Black Lions warband: Fallen who joined Abaddon as he formed the Legion. Now you can build a BL army AND use all your spare DA bits.

 

The Black Lions are introduced in the Black Legion novels and have a small reference in the main rulebook as being listed at Vigilus, I think.

Edited January 28, 2022 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Uprising]

 

Rules remind me a lot of the Dark Angels rules, I wonder if there'll be more that trends in that direction.

 

I've only done one game with the 8E rules, so I'm still very much figuring out how I want to create my Black Legion army.

If you're encouraged by similarities to Dark Angels, I'd suggest making a Black Lions warband: Fallen who joined Abaddon as he formed the Legion. Now you can build a BL army AND use all your spare DA bits.

 

The Black Lions are introduced in the Black Legion novels and have a small reference in the main rulebook as being listed at Vigilus, I think.

 

I did not know about that bit of fluff.  As a fallen leads my warband this is a nice touch.  Do you have a page number?

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

Rules remind me a lot of the Dark Angels rules, I wonder if there'll be more that trends in that direction.

 

I've only done one game with the 8E rules, so I'm still very much figuring out how I want to create my Black Legion army.

If you're encouraged by similarities to Dark Angels, I'd suggest making a Black Lions warband: Fallen who joined Abaddon as he formed the Legion. Now you can build a BL army AND use all your spare DA bits.

 

The Black Lions are introduced in the Black Legion novels and have a small reference in the main rulebook as being listed at Vigilus, I think.

 

I was planning on making one of my CSM squads a Fallen squad, swap out a shoulderpad for a MK III one, put some of my HH decals on one side and Black Legion on the other, and paint the trim silver instead of gold.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

Rules remind me a lot of the Dark Angels rules, I wonder if there'll be more that trends in that direction.

 

I've only done one game with the 8E rules, so I'm still very much figuring out how I want to create my Black Legion army.

If you're encouraged by similarities to Dark Angels, I'd suggest making a Black Lions warband: Fallen who joined Abaddon as he formed the Legion. Now you can build a BL army AND use all your spare DA bits.

 

The Black Lions are introduced in the Black Legion novels and have a small reference in the main rulebook as being listed at Vigilus, I think.

 

I did not know about that bit of fluff.  As a fallen leads my warband this is a nice touch.  Do you have a page number?

 

Page number 130 for their brief mention as being on Vigilus (as a Khorne BL warband->we don't know if SOME of the Lions are Khorne or ALL are). As for the novels, try the novel "Black Legion" and look for any mention of the character Vortigern. He's their leader.

 

From Lexicanum: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lost_Lion

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

Rules remind me a lot of the Dark Angels rules, I wonder if there'll be more that trends in that direction.

 

I've only done one game with the 8E rules, so I'm still very much figuring out how I want to create my Black Legion army.

If you're encouraged by similarities to Dark Angels, I'd suggest making a Black Lions warband: Fallen who joined Abaddon as he formed the Legion. Now you can build a BL army AND use all your spare DA bits.

 

The Black Lions are introduced in the Black Legion novels and have a small reference in the main rulebook as being listed at Vigilus, I think.

 

I was planning on making one of my CSM squads a Fallen squad, swap out a shoulderpad for a MK III one, put some of my HH decals on one side and Black Legion on the other, and paint the trim silver instead of gold.

 

Sounds solid. I personally split the livery up on my Black Lions too. I vary how each squad and character does it, but always include a mix of metals and some split between the yellow accents of the Black Legion and the red of Heresy-era DA.

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[techsoldaten]

Question: what can Black Legion do for Chosen? The answer is interesting as you start considering their place in lists.

 

The rumors we have about 9th edition Chosen so far:

 

- Same statline as a Heavy Intercessor

 

- Basic loadout is bolt gun and accursed weapon (power weapon)

 

- For every 5 models, you can take 2 combi-weapons and 2 pistols

 

- Each Chosen unit gets an additional Legion Trait

 

- Can take Daemonic Gifts and Icons for additional buffs

 

On the surface, they look like a mid-range anti-infantry / melee unit that's slightly tougher than regular CSM. Which would not be too exciting, I already have units filling that role.

 

However, Legion Traits, Auras, Icons and Gifts improve the way this unit would perform on the tabletop. Starting to think through how these benefits could stack to make Black Legion Chosen useful.

 

- Legion Trait: ignore CA and exploding 5s for shooting and melee. Assuming this works as described, that's an average of 3 extra shots for every 10 dice rolled.

 

- Second Legion Trait: these come from a list of DIY traits, not the traits used by other legions. +4" range to shooting is one of them, 14" double tap range could be interesting. Don't know what the others are.

 

- Icons: Icon of Flame gives +1 AP to shooting. Icon of Wrath gives +1 AP to melee. Both are good, depending on how a unit is kitted out.

 

- Daemon Gifts: Are more for defense. Nurgle's -1 to wound is probably the best.

 

- Abaddon: Provided he still has a full reroll to hit aura, this might make Chosen useful against other things. Rerolling on BS3 is about as good as straight BS2. Imagine 18+ Bolter Shots and 6 Plasma shots hitting against a Dreadnought, the volume of fire might reliably take one down.

 

Does this really make Chosen better than other anti-infantry units? This stack seems to be an improvement but their value would really depend on points. Heavy Intercessors with better guns cost 28ppm. I'd say Chosen are worth about 21ppm before you start buying combi-weapons / pistols. Anything more than that and I'd really have to think about why they belong in my lists.

[Prot]

The Heavy Intercessor is T5... are chosen T5?

 

Also the exploding 5's thing... isn't that dependent on the phase of the game you're in, as in which Doctrine you're using? If so, that diminshes that ability substantially.

 

I'm just looking at the "mark of nurgle" or "icon of nurgle" and hoping I can apply it to the Helbrutes.

 

Speaking of Helbrutes, and Abaddon, it will be critical to know how the 'core' rules come into play. I look at vanilla marines and the 'core' rule is the mechanism I believe GW has put into effect to stop people from buying/using old marine models and using primaris to a degree. Then I look at Sisters of Battle, and they have a lot more 'core' than marines. The only difference to me is the whole line is relatively new.

 

Chaos doesn't have this issue, but it is something I am very wary of because GW doesn't tweak Chaos very often, so we have to live with what we get for a very long time I think. 

 

So Core debate aside, I think that leaves the Abaddon discussion out of the picture for me, for now until I know what happens there.

 

The Chosen are a no go for me as described currently. I want to move away from using Cultists so much. And FINALLY it looks like our CSM troops will be valid. (Not just 2 wounds, but full load out options.)

 

I was looking very forward to Chosen but what we're seeing here... I dunno. I'll probably just go back to my Termie blob.

 

Haarken is another wild card. As a Black Legion character, he -could- be very spicy with Raptors/Warp Talons. It appears everything is losing claws, and gaining goofy warp weapons. So Haarken could be the thing that really empowers the faster moving units.

[tinpact]

IIRC Centurions and Servitors are the only Space Marine non-HQ infantry units without Core, so we can probably count on most non-cultist, non-vehicle units (and Helbrutes, probably) being Core. Necrons were kind of the odd one out for having notable Core restrictions, and they've since changed it. That said, rerolls or not, special weapon bombs being gone means a lot depends on how well you can deliver them/keep them alive.

[Prot]

Right... 2 non-primaris units.

 

Things have changed a lot since that decision was made. My point with connecting Abaddon to that is he's really 'out there' as far as predicting his rules. 

 

Talking Black Legion here, but he is definitely not Calgar, nor Guilliman... somewhere in between. 

 

That's why I could see this going either way. I actually hate the way chapter master rules work. It's asinine to me, but I don't want to turn this into a complaint post, but the mechanism I find goofy is it happens during the Command phase, leaving this ability unusable to units in a rhino, or reserves. This would (imo) neuter Abaddon since I absolutely love coming down from deepstrike with him and Termies in tow, terrorizing some corner of the board. 

 

But will they do this to him? Who knows.... it would be very cool and fitting if he still had his aura, and gaming wise it most certainly has not made Black Legion anything terrifying on the top tables.

 

GW and Chaos are quite fickle. I honestly have no idea how they will treat him. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Prot

[techsoldaten]

Right... 2 non-primaris units.

 

Things have changed a lot since that decision was made. My point with connecting Abaddon to that is he's really 'out there' as far as predicting his rules. 

 

Talking Black Legion here, but he is definitely not Calgar, nor Guilliman... somewhere in between. 

 

That's why I could see this going either way. I actually hate the way chapter master rules work. It's asinine to me, but I don't want to turn this into a complaint post, but the mechanism I find goofy is it happens during the Command phase, leaving this ability unusable to units in a rhino, or reserves. This would (imo) neuter Abaddon since I absolutely love coming down from deepstrike with him and Termies in tow, terrorizing some corner of the board. 

 

But will they do this to him? Who knows.... it would be very cool and fitting if he still had his aura, and gaming wise it most certainly has not made Black Legion anything terrifying on the top tables.

 

GW and Chaos are quite fickle. I honestly have no idea how they will treat him. 

 

WRT your previous post, yeah, Chosen appear to be T4 and the wording of the Legion Trait is not entirely clear. You could be right about the effect of doctrines.

 

Abaddon has always served as a force multiplier. In 8th, I used him to run a gunline with a ton of highly accurate lascannons, he rarely saw combat. Before 8th, I used him to deep strike and make Terminators more potent than they might have otherwise. While I haven't seen any datasheets, I hope making other units more effective continues to be his role. 

 

My point was that Chosen are something of a wildcard and Black Legion may have some built-in advantages that make them something more than a mid-range anti-infantry unit. Chaos has always had a hole when it comes to shooting, there's a need for a ranged unit that's better than CSM without going as far as Obliterators / Havocs. They are a contender for this role, maybe moreso than even Noise Marines. 

 

It's something to keep an eye on as we get closer to a Codex.

 

I have yet to play my CSM in 9th, I've focused on my Deathwatch army. This is where the Heavy Intercessor comparison comes in, they're close cousins to Chosen as Heavy Infantry. Explaining how effective Deathwatch Heavy Intercessors can be is hard, they can be mixed with Aggressors and Inceptors to make Kill Team units that are tough like Terminators but with great ranged firepower.

 

Chaos might need something like that to get past Ad-Mech shooting, Ork Buggy Spam, Venom spam, and the other things going on right now. Imperial Knights also concern me, I'm wondering what a TAAC CSM list could look like. Hoping Chosen do have something to offer.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Anyone else think that heavy bolter havocs might be good?  

 

They generally suck but I did some messing around with my own models in situations that are common in my games and plugged in the new BL rules and they actually did something.

 

They have a few things going for them.  Their range is excellent for an anti MEQ/GEQ weapon, their ap is perfect at -2 (tzeentch icon), they hit on 2s or 3s with rerolls, and 6s explode on turn 1(possibly beyond).  

[techsoldaten]

Anyone else think that heavy bolter havocs might be good?  

 

They generally suck but I did some messing around with my own models in situations that are common in my games and plugged in the new BL rules and they actually did something.

 

They have a few things going for them.  Their range is excellent for an anti MEQ/GEQ weapon, their ap is perfect at -2 (tzeentch icon), they hit on 2s or 3s with rerolls, and 6s explode on turn 1(possibly beyond).  

 

Heavy Bolters, in general, are not bad in 9th edition. 3 S5 AP-1 D2 shots are something to think about.

 

But the points concern me, not sure we know how much they will be compared to a Reaper Chaincannon. If it's 10pts v 15 pts, most people would take the Chaincannon.

 

I wonder if Havocs will be able to take Icons. While I'd really like for them to, it's a 5 man squad with a Sergeant. Who's going to hold the Icon?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

Anyone else think that heavy bolter havocs might be good?  

 

They generally suck but I did some messing around with my own models in situations that are common in my games and plugged in the new BL rules and they actually did something.

 

They have a few things going for them.  Their range is excellent for an anti MEQ/GEQ weapon, their ap is perfect at -2 (tzeentch icon), they hit on 2s or 3s with rerolls, and 6s explode on turn 1(possibly beyond).  

 

Heavy Bolters, in general, are not bad in 9th edition. 3 S5 AP-1 D2 shots are something to think about.

 

But the points concern me, not sure we know how much they will be compared to a Reaper Chaincannon. If it's 10pts v 15 pts, most people would take the Chaincannon.

 

I wonder if Havocs will be able to take Icons. While I'd really like for them to, it's a 5 man squad with a Sergeant. Who's going to hold the Icon?

 

It seems that icons will just be a unit upgrade like what we have seen in other books and not require a visual representation on the tabletop.  I was assuming that havocs can take an icon being infantry and all.  It just seems like they ought to have this option because without it they just suck.  

[techsoldaten]

 

It seems that icons will just be a unit upgrade like what we have seen in other books and not require a visual representation on the tabletop.  I was assuming that havocs can take an icon being infantry and all.  It just seems like they ought to have this option because without it they just suck.  

 

Let's see what happens. After they took SIA away from most Deathwatch units, I stopped taking anything for granted. 9th edition breaks with some traditions.

 

If Icons are simply a unit upgrade, that makes sense they would have it. But Havocs do have access to AP-3 guns already with Lascannons, GW might be hesitant to make them AP-4. 

 

The bigger question for me is whether they get Core. I think they will, most infantry do. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

It seems that icons will just be a unit upgrade like what we have seen in other books and not require a visual representation on the tabletop.  I was assuming that havocs can take an icon being infantry and all.  It just seems like they ought to have this option because without it they just suck.  

 

Let's see what happens. After they took SIA away from most Deathwatch units, I stopped taking anything for granted. 9th edition breaks with some traditions.

 

If Icons are simply a unit upgrade, that makes sense they would have it. But Havocs do have access to AP-3 guns already with Lascannons, GW might be hesitant to make them AP-4. 

 

The bigger question for me is whether they get Core. I think they will, most infantry do. 

 

I dont think GW has a problem doling ap these days.  If ap -4 lascannons are too good for CSM then what are dark lances for Drukhari  or railguns for Tau?  The Tzeetch icon is fairy tame these days especially with nearly every relevant unit having a 5++ invuln and/or -1 dmg.  

Edited February 4, 2022 by SanguinaryGuardsman

[Prot]

Anyone else think that heavy bolter havocs might be good?  

 

They generally suck but I did some messing around with my own models in situations that are common in my games and plugged in the new BL rules and they actually did something.

 

They have a few things going for them.  Their range is excellent for an anti MEQ/GEQ weapon, their ap is perfect at -2 (tzeentch icon), they hit on 2s or 3s with rerolls, and 6s explode on turn 1(possibly beyond).  

 

 

Honestly, I just plan on sticking with my squad loaded up with Chaincannons. Until I know more, they just work on everything in volume. There's a ridiculous amount of -1 D now. I still have to see 1) the strats that may change my mind and 2) the actual way the rules will mesh with Black Legion.

 

What really gets me in 9e is I really wanted MM's on my Havocs

[Khornestar]

The only model of multimelta that we can make work after 10,000 years is on Helbrutes or 30k vehicles where they couldn’t take it away from us because it comes with the kit. I’m surprised they didn’t make it some objectively worse version called an ectomelta. ;)

 

I too think chaincannons are still going to be a solid choice for most targets, even if endless cacophony disappears as many expect it to.

[techsoldaten]

I too think chaincannons are still going to be a solid choice for most targets, even if endless cacophony disappears as many expect it to.

 

Imagine if some combination of Legion Traits / Icons made Chaincannons Heavy 8 S5 AP-3 D1 weapons.

 

And Chaos Lords gave them rerolls to hit. And Daemon Princes / Aspiring Champions / Stratagems gave them rerolls to wound.

[Prot]

 

I too think chaincannons are still going to be a solid choice for most targets, even if endless cacophony disappears as many expect it to.

 

Imagine if some combination of Legion Traits / Icons made Chaincannons Heavy 8 S5 AP-3 D1 weapons.

 

And Chaos Lords gave them rerolls to hit. And Daemon Princes / Aspiring Champions / Stratagems gave them rerolls to wound.

 

 

 

Yes well my thinking is if we have access to exploding 5's then the chaincannon is gonna go 'BRRRRRRRRRrrrrr!!!' and mow down so much infantry, I'm getting giddy just thinking about it. ;)

[techsoldaten]

 

 

I too think chaincannons are still going to be a solid choice for most targets, even if endless cacophony disappears as many expect it to.

 

Imagine if some combination of Legion Traits / Icons made Chaincannons Heavy 8 S5 AP-3 D1 weapons.

 

And Chaos Lords gave them rerolls to hit. And Daemon Princes / Aspiring Champions / Stratagems gave them rerolls to wound.

 

 

Yes well my thinking is if we have access to exploding 5's then the chaincannon is gonna go 'BRRRRRRRRRrrrrr!!!' and mow down so much infantry, I'm getting giddy just thinking about it.

 

Have not seen a leak about Heavy Weapons getting exploding 5s.

 

But it would be spectacular if they were reclassified as something that does.

[techsoldaten]

Mentioned in another rumor thread: 

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/?p=5797184

 

"Raptors (unit of 5-10)

- Chainsword and pistol

- Up to 2 special weapons

- Up to 2 plasma pistols

 

Champ

- Can take plasma pistol

- Power sword or fist"

 

"Harkon can make a raptor unit reroll hit and wound"

 

A few thoughts.

 

- If Harkon's rerolls extend to shooting, BL Plasma Raptor units become very tempting.

 

- Paired with exploding 5s trait, BL Raptors could do around 8 Plasma shots per turn.

 

- With MoK and IoK, I think that means they get 4 S5 attacks on the charge.

 

If this is correct, 10 man Raptor units would be formidable. Shooting and melee combined potentially do 48 wounds. Rerolls to hit and wound mean they'd average around 20 wounds per turn versus MEQ.

 

Obviously, a few things need to go right for that to happen. But this looks promising.