Free Datasheets for New Gravis Captain and Ancient

[Xenith]

 

 

Can this indicate that there will not be a Codex 2.0 this edition since the datasheets have been released for free?

I think it looks almost certain now.

 

This could be a taste and indication that units will be reworked with some more thematic rules and abilities.

 

I'm hoping that some of the abilities that were taken away from units like the Grav Tanks are restored, to one again make them more dynamic and interesting.

 

Either way, this is a great start.

 

It sure would be nice to have some beta rules...

 

 

What, like these mid-codex free rules they gave us that may change depending on player feedback?

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think its less lightning fast and more neglecting defence because you are a tank

Waiting for my Deathwing Strikemaster to get his 5 bonus attacks on the next update then :D

[davextreme]

The Master-Crafted Power Sword was often the same as or worse than the melee gauntlet. Losing it isn’t a big deal here in many cases. If you take the regular Power Sword now you get extra attacks which are useful vs 1W models, and you still have the gauntlet for 2W (Marines) or tougher targets.

 

The chainsword is really only there to be made into a relic; it’s not preferable to the Power Sword in most matchups. I’m not sure Teeth of Terra presents enough of an upgrade to be worth it vs another relic or using the relic elsewhere.

 

That they priced all the weapon options the same—the sword and fist don’t cost extra—tells you more or less what you need to know. They’re all good depending on the situation you need them for.

[Orange Knight]

The Master-Crafted Power Sword was often the same as or worse than the melee gauntlet. Losing it isn’t a big deal here in many cases. If you take the regular Power Sword now you get extra attacks which are useful vs 1W models, and you still have the gauntlet for 2W (Marines) or tougher targets.

 

The chainsword is really only there to be made into a relic; it’s not preferable to the Power Sword in most matchups. I’m not sure Teeth of Terra presents enough of an upgrade to be worth it vs another relic or using the relic elsewhere.

 

That they priced all the weapon options the same—the sword and fist don’t cost extra—tells you more or less what you need to know. They’re all good depending on the situation you need them for.

I agree with this assessment.

 

The unit is no worse at dealing with elite infantry or vehicles, but clearly better at dealing with light infantry.

[Schlitzaf]

What hilerious mc’ing the chainsword almosr same as teething it

[Cleon]

If you run Blood Angels, then +1 str with +1 to wound chapter bonus was much more useful than X2 str with a -1 to hit, so the Gauntlet fist wasn't as appealing, so losing the MC sword just means that the 'Gravis Captain' won't get in my lists anymore as the other Captains are more interesting if I want one.

[Karhedron]

Is master crafted wargear not ruled out by the relic clause?

The wording for Master Crafted says that the weapon is now considered a Chapter Relic so I think I agree.

 

Basically you are paying +5 points for an extra attack with the PF, 2 extra attacks with a power sword (no longer MC) or 3 extra attacks with a chainsword (I am counting 2 for the ability +1 for the CS itself since it was not an option previously).

 

It seems a bit weird but it makes sense since this helps differentiate from the Gravis Captain with rifle and MC Sword. For Chapters like Wolves whose bonus cancels out the Fist penalty, I can see double fists being pretty tasty and well worth the 5 points. For other builds it is a bit more marginal. Yes Teeth of Terra is an option but costs 120 points rather than the 115 we may have been expecting.

 

Overall the rules are a bit of a curates egg, only bits of it are good. However the model is undeniably sweet and it deserves consideration for that alone.

 

[Orange Knight]

If you run Blood Angels, then +1 str with +1 to wound chapter bonus was much more useful than X2 str with a -1 to hit, so the Gauntlet fist wasn't as appealing, so losing the MC sword just means that the 'Gravis Captain' won't get in my lists anymore as the other Captains are more interesting if I want one.

But now he can take the Teeth of Terra, which is better than the MC Power Sword as you gain 3 extra attacks.

 

So if you really want a Str5 Damage 2 weapon, this Captain does it better.

[Karhedron]

If you run Blood Angels, then +1 str with +1 to wound chapter bonus was much more useful than X2 str with a -1 to hit, so the Gauntlet fist wasn't as appealing, so losing the MC sword just means that the 'Gravis Captain' won't get in my lists anymore as the other Captains are more interesting if I want one.

I agree but since we have the option of the CAPTAIN WITH MASTER-CRAFTED HEAVY BOLT RIFLE, he is what I would run for BAs anyway. You get the MC power sword but he is cheaper since you don't have to pay for the redundant boltstorm gauntlet. Plus the MC bolt rifle is pretty tasty.

[Captain Idaho]

 

If you run Blood Angels, then +1 str with +1 to wound chapter bonus was much more useful than X2 str with a -1 to hit, so the Gauntlet fist wasn't as appealing, so losing the MC sword just means that the 'Gravis Captain' won't get in my lists anymore as the other Captains are more interesting if I want one.

But now he can take the Teeth of Terra, which is better than the MC Power Sword as you gain 3 extra attacks.

So if you really want a Str5 Damage 2 weapon, this Captain does it better.

But not better than existing options with jump packs, who can have a Storm Shield.

[Karhedron]

But not better than existing options with jump packs, who can have a Storm Shield.

Storm Shields have been devalued by the loss of the 3++. While the +1 save is good, that has also been eroded by the proliferation of massed AP-1 and AP-2 attacks. Doctrines in particular mean a Character will often be forced back down to their 4++ Iron Halo anyway.

 

I normally only run Stormshields if I can stack it with 2+ save armour as the 1+ save still provides a benefit, even when faced with buckets of AP-2 attacks. My Jump Captain tends to pack an Inferno Pistol rather than a Storm Shield these days (or a combi melta for non-BAs).

[Stealth_Hobo]

Free rules are always appreciated.   Gravis Captain looks cool, but I might use Tor Garadon model as counts-as for my Fists.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It doesn't look the points change for the captain regardless of loadout. So, I can understand coming up with some unique rules to try and balance the options. That said it feels really clunky, and they're ignoring the big issues gravis characters have they can't teleport or use affordable transports. I think it would have been a lot better to give him an ability where he could advance and still fire the boltstorm gauntlet or even advance charge (but not fire the gauntlet).

 

I like the model and may get it, but it's pretty underwhelming rules wise.

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

 

But not better than existing options with jump packs, who can have a Storm Shield.

Storm Shields have been devalued by the loss of the 3++. While the +1 save is good, that has also been eroded by the proliferation of massed AP-1 and AP-2 attacks. Doctrines in particular mean a Character will often be forced back down to their 4++ Iron Halo anyway.

 

I normally only run Stormshields if I can stack it with 2+ save armour as the 1+ save still provides a benefit, even when faced with buckets of AP-2 attacks. My Jump Captain tends to pack an Inferno Pistol rather than a Storm Shield these days (or a combi melta for non-BAs).

Well that's tangential but kind of supports my position - you're getting better out of a jump pack character.

 

I wasn't citing a Storm Shield as a sole reason it is superior to take a jump pack Captain, I was citing a Storm Shield as part of the equation - a faster moving, superior saving, better equipped model with less attacks is going to be selected over a model that has to walk slowly up the table.

 

****

 

Regarding a Storm Shield - it's absolutely an excellent piece of Wargear, with the proof being just who gets given it when. Can you say you wouldn't give one to a Gravis Captain because of the reasons you mentioned above ;)

 

Of course you would, because -1 AP is a relevant thing in every army and saving on a 3+ is better than a 4+.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[davextreme]

If this model is equipped with an Astartes Chainsword, each time the bearer fights, it can make 2 additional attack with that weapon (for a maximum of 3).

 

I understand that the third attack comes from the chainsword’s special rule. Does the “maximum of 3” refer to the total number of chainsword attacks you can make, or the total number of bonus attacks you get? That is, can I use my 5 A + 3 bonus = 8 chainsword attacks, or does it have to be 5 Boltstorm Gauntlet attacks + 3 bonus chainsword attacks?

[Orange Knight]

You can get a maximum of 3 bonus Chainsword attacks on top of the usual profile, so you could attack 9 times with the CS, for example.

 

To be honest, the Chainsword should only be considered if you intend to upgrade it to the Teeth of Terra, otherwise the power sword is a far better options for the same cost.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

Is master crafted wargear not ruled out by the relic clause?

The wording for Master Crafted says that the weapon is now considered a Chapter Relic so I think I agree.

 

Basically you are paying +5 points for an extra attack with the PF, 2 extra attacks with a power sword (no longer MC) or 3 extra attacks with a chainsword (I am counting 2 for the ability +1 for the CS itself since it was not an option previously).

 

It seems a bit weird but it makes sense since this helps differentiate from the Gravis Captain with rifle and MC Sword. For Chapters like Wolves whose bonus cancels out the Fist penalty, I can see double fists being pretty tasty and well worth the 5 points. For other builds it is a bit more marginal. Yes Teeth of Terra is an option but costs 120 points rather than the 115 we may have been expecting.

 

Overall the rules are a bit of a curates egg, only bits of it are good. However the model is undeniably sweet and it deserves consideration for that alone.

 

Yeah as a Wolves player I love the extra fisting. MCW on main fist not worst idea.

 

Problem is a delivery vehicle for the guy

 

I think this is a case of rules catching up to the design. They designed a guy with 2 melee weapons 9 or 10 years ago and have now belatedly but welcomely made a point to it

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

But not better than existing options with jump packs, who can have a Storm Shield.

Storm Shields have been devalued by the loss of the 3++. While the +1 save is good, that has also been eroded by the proliferation of massed AP-1 and AP-2 attacks. Doctrines in particular mean a Character will often be forced back down to their 4++ Iron Halo anyway.

 

I normally only run Stormshields if I can stack it with 2+ save armour as the 1+ save still provides a benefit, even when faced with buckets of AP-2 attacks. My Jump Captain tends to pack an Inferno Pistol rather than a Storm Shield these days (or a combi melta for non-BAs).

Well that's tangential but kind of supports my position - you're getting better out of a jump pack character.

 

I wasn't citing a Storm Shield as a sole reason it is superior to take a jump pack Captain, I was citing a Storm Shield as part of the equation - a faster moving, superior saving, better equipped model with less attacks is going to be selected over a model that has to walk slowly up the table.

 

****

 

Regarding a Storm Shield - it's absolutely an excellent piece of Wargear, with the proof being just who gets given it when. Can you say you wouldn't give one to a Gravis Captain because of the reasons you mentioned above

 

Of course you would, because -1 AP is a relevant thing in every army and saving on a 3+ is better than a 4+.

 

 

In all fairness with the exception of special characters and the Primaris bike Chaplain your almost always better off with a jump pack character. Terminators are probably the exception to this with DA, but largely the jump pack options have been the strongest for a while now. Movement and loadout flexibility are just really hard to beat.

[ChargingSoll]

Mastercrafting the fist would also boost the shooting profile, real shame losing MC powersword tho.

 

Biggest thing is the possibilities of what's to come with the stance abilities. It's popping up more with HQs and champion units.

[chapter master 454]

Mastercrafting the fist would also boost the shooting profile, real shame losing MC powersword tho.

 

Biggest thing is the possibilities of what's to come with the stance abilities. It's popping up more with HQs and champion units.

 

Not so much stances really and more...ad-hoc way to not make "Gravis Captain Astartes Chainsword, Gravis Captain Power Sword, Gravis Captain Power Fist" each with their own unique ability to add attacks. Stances imo imply some ability to switch between them in some form or select them as you go.

 

However, nice now to be able to meme about with my tank captain. Chapter Master for Angel's Artifice, Iron Resolve Warlord trait + salamanders strat to get extra trait for +2 toughness. The captain is now T8 with 9 wounds, 2+ save, 4++ and a 6+++. Competitive? Na. Fun? "You're up against the wall, and I'm the EMPERORS LOVING WALL!"

[Burni]

To be fair these particular stances could have just been listed in each weapon profile.

[spessmarine]

that's a weird special rule that feels too much like adding 2 to the attacks characteristic, but not exactly I'm aware, in a long-winded way
can't say I'm fond of those datasheet edit abilities, glad they made the sheets free! hate when they are utterly miserly over it and spread them through various sources other than codices

[Wulf Vengis]

Why don't they just release the model the way they want you to build it and play it then not allow any options in the models rules?

 

I again ask the rhetorical question of what is going on with this edition?

Edited January 28, 2022 by Wulf Vengis

[Closet Skeleton]

Everyone saying 3 bonus damage 1 attacks (at -2 in assault doctrine) isn't worth 5 points is either deluding themselves or engaging in hyperbole. Its not like damage 2 is even that great in the current meta.

 

The point of the bonus attacks is to get round 8th-9th ed's lack of generic two weapon fighting rules which kind of put the Dark Imperium Gravis Captain in a weird place originally. You're supposed to make 5 gaunlet attacks and 2 sword ones.

 

Gravis Captains are for anchoring a line, providing rerolls and being around to counter-punch. I use a regular power fist primaris captain in every marine game and have never had any problem getting him into combat. Comparing him to a fast disposable suicide unit captain (who suck now anyway) is a case of different tactics and play styles not effectiveness. Of course one equipment load out can't do the job of a more specialised alternate load out, giving you strategic options to optimise your army isn't bad game design.

 

How people can play this game and then judge options based on the assumption of a purely static opponent that they need to close distance with as quickly as possible deeply confuses me.

 

This is getting really silly now.

This is a great example of where GW had gone wrong. They've created yet another model with unique special rules because they've created such an excessive surplus of redundant choices and have to try and make this one relevant.

This just replaces an existing datasheet, the two redundant Gravis Captain datasheets is a feature of the current marine book. Why they didn't just give this datasheet a heavy bolt rifle option I don't know.

 

 

So does this datasheet replace the one in Codex Space Marines, or is it extra? is the Master crafted Power sword on the other sheet because as it's master crafted you don't get the fighting style or did they just forget it was master crafted?

 

No MC Powersword feels like a bit of a miss.

 

The lack of mastercrafted is to balance the chainsword, power fist and power sword up against each other. Otherwise the Chainsword would need like 5 bonus attacks and the power fist would just be pretty bad.

 

With the amount of 5+/4+ invulnerable saves then 3 attacks at -2 ap in assault doctrine is just better than 2 at AP -4. If you want all your attacks at damage 2 you have to take the -1 to hit.
 

 

Extra AP on the boltstorm gauntlets shooting. I really hope this is a sign for things to come. I want my boltstorm aggressors usable again!

Actually the rules make sense. With the MC power sword, the boltstorm gauntlet melee did kinda feel meh. So nerfing it kinda makes sense. As well as the rule, because more weapons, more attacks But that 5 point bump was really uncalled for.

 

Aggressors have always had a different assault profile gauntlet. Again, 5 points is nothing and completely fair price for extra attacks.

 

 

 

However, nice now to be able to meme about with my tank captain. Chapter Master for Angel's Artifice, Iron Resolve Warlord trait + salamanders strat to get extra trait for +2 toughness. The captain is now T8 with 9 wounds, 2+ save, 4++ and a 6+++. Competitive? Na. Fun? "You're up against the wall, and I'm the EMPERORS LOVING WALL!"

 

 

IF for Adamantine Mantle, 2 warlord traits for Indomitable (always transhuman) and Stubborn Heroism (half to all damage) is still tougher.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[jarms48]

This just feels kinda weird?

 

Two, when I think of “the art of fighting in gravis armor” I don’t picture a dude making 10 lightning fast attacks. This buff just feels strange from a theme perspective over something like increased strength on the charge or ap or really anything else? Hitting on full WS on the fist or anything?

 

 

Yeah, you would think a heavier thus slower opponent would fight more defensively like a +1 to Save in close combat, or fight more brutally knowing their quarry can't hurt them for +1 S.

 

This just feels kinda weird?

For one, there are two generic unnamed gravis captains now. Is this one the only guy who has mastered the art of fighting in his gravis armor but the heavy Intercessor version doesn’t know yet?

 

Yeah, mastercrafted bolt rifle and mastercrafted powersword Captain feels a bit left out here. +2 attacks on that weapon would be scary. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by jarms48