LVO Space Marine results

[Medjugorje]

For a long time i always wonder why Marines showed so good results in tournaments in other countries while in my local (and german wide) meta Marines totally failed in competitive play. Now the LVO proves what I said for a much longer time. Space Marines are trash tier in competitive gaming. 

Do you think the new codex is close (like the rumors said) or is it possible to get a huge point reduction in a few month.?

[WrathOfTheLion]

The Chaos Space Marine codex is looking to be pretty cool if our rumor thread is to be correct, I doubt they'll let Chaos Space Marines have fun for too long before a loyalist one follows it up.

 

I didn't get to use the 8E Space Marine codex, playing Dark Angels and Space Wolves. I'm hoping that they keep it in moderation this time, if they do give a little juice to the faction. Those weren't good times.

Edited January 30, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

This seems…really reactionary and unduly salty.

 

SM in general are an ok faction in competitive play, depending on which chapter you play they can even be good.

 

I haven’t seen the LVO results, but if SM didn’t do well, that doesn’t make the army a trash tier faction

[Slave to Darkness]

This seems…really reactionary and unduly salty.

 

SM in general are an ok faction in competitive play, depending on which chapter you play they can even be good.

 

I haven’t seen the LVO results, but if SM didn’t do well, that doesn’t make the army a trash tier faction

Tbh it would be nice to see anything other than marines at the top of the lists. 

[Tokugawa]

There are many things between "tier0" and "trash tier". Meta is not binary.

 

LVO is a super big event(760+ players this year), after 6 swiss rounds there is 9 or 10 6W players, which means undefeated score even cannot ensure a top8 slot.

 

So the best players need to choose the army not only could win a game, but also could score VPs as close to 100 as possible. In Jan2022 that is something like nids stampede, or coven druks with 170 wracks. Marine don't have such crazy raw power, so they won't be the choice of pro players. That is different to situations of GT or RTT level tournaments.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

This seems…really reactionary and unduly salty.

 

SM in general are an ok faction in competitive play, depending on which chapter you play they can even be good.

 

I haven’t seen the LVO results, but if SM didn’t do well, that doesn’t make the army a trash tier faction

Tbh it would be nice to see anything other than marines at the top of the lists.

it’s been a while, but auspex tactics did a break down of SM win %.

As a whole SMs we’re sitting around 40% win rate iirc

The two top chapters were at about 55-60% iirc

The bottom end being something like 30%

 

So it’s definitely not the case that SM are dominating the competitive scene

[WrathOfTheLion]

If there is a new Space Marine codex, I highly suspect Shock Assault will go away, given that they've been just bumping all the Chaos factions up an attack and removing Hateful Assault.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

This seems…really reactionary and unduly salty.

 

SM in general are an ok faction in competitive play, depending on which chapter you play they can even be good.

 

I haven’t seen the LVO results, but if SM didn’t do well, that doesn’t make the army a trash tier faction

Tbh it would be nice to see anything other than marines at the top of the lists.

it’s been a while, but auspex tactics did a break down of SM win %.

As a whole SMs we’re sitting around 40% win rate iirc

The two top chapters were at about 55-60% iirc

The bottom end being something like 30%

 

So it’s definitely not the case that SM are dominating the competitive scene

 

Thats good to hear. :) 

 

How is Guard doing in the competitive scene? Kinda out of the loop atm, real life kinda gets in the way of catching up on certain parts of the hobby. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

For a long time i always wonder why Marines showed so good results in tournaments in other countries while in my local (and german wide) meta Marines totally failed in competitive play. Now the LVO proves what I said for a much longer time. Space Marines are trash tier in competitive gaming. 

Do you think the new codex is close (like the rumors said) or is it possible to get a huge point reduction in a few month.?

 

 

Do you ever provide numbers or proof to back up your posts? 

 

Tokugawa  makes a great point that winning LVO and placing highly is a completely different game than winning all, or most of your matchups.

 

But from what I can tell, after 6 rounds out of 9, and over 700 players we have:

 

14th - Dark Angels

20th - Black Templar

93rd - Space Wolves

94th - Space Wolves

95th - Salamanders

105th - Black Templars

110th  - White Scars

112th - Deathwing

116th - Black Templars

119th - Deathwatch

121st - Space Wolves

122nd - Iron Hands

129th - Blood Angels

141st - Dark Angels 

150th - Iron Hands

163rd - Deathwatch

171st - Black Templar

172nd - Deathwatch

.... and more.

 

The first two are 5/1. The rest are 4/2 and it keeps going; the first marine list that went 3/3 is ranked 255th with Iron hands. Very good performances considering marines actually sit at like a B++/A-- tier. 

 

I'm not really sure how you can continuously make these posts in such bad faith and not feel ashamed when others actually provide numbers or proof that completely contradicts you. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Orange Knight]

I generally agree with the sentiment that Marines are currently underpowered, and it lends support for a new codex. Some of the chapters are unfortunately very poor compared to others too, so the internal balance is off.

 

I think there will be an update this year, so I'm not getting upset. Its just a matter of patience.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think when it comes to competitive play Marine win rates can be deceiving.

 

1) It's the most popular army by far so most people have experience against them, and everyone is going to bring tools for that matchup.

 

2) Space Marines are really beginner friendly. I think people underestimate how many new players go to tournaments and a lot of those players are running marines. They're the face of the game, they have a ton of discounted box sets, and they have several different play styles.

 

3) I feel like knowledge checks are a big part of the competitive game this edition. So, there are advantages to switching armies and I think that leads some of the better players to be more open to swapping armies. 

 

I generally agree with the sentiment that Marines are currently underpowered, and it lends support for a new codex. Some of the chapters are unfortunately very poor compared to others too, so the internal balance is off.

I think there will be an update this year, so I'm not getting upset. Its just a matter of patience.

 

I think the codex is fine, I suspect it's going to be more of a Chaos V2 codex so new players don't have to buy a codex, campaign supplement, and chapter supplement. That said I don't disagree with you I just think the heavy lifting has to come from the supplements. The RG, and IF supplements in particular need to be reworked. 

[superwill]

 

For a long time i always wonder why Marines showed so good results in tournaments in other countries while in my local (and german wide) meta Marines totally failed in competitive play. Now the LVO proves what I said for a much longer time. Space Marines are trash tier in competitive gaming. 

Do you think the new codex is close (like the rumors said) or is it possible to get a huge point reduction in a few month.?

 

 

Do you ever provide numbers or proof to back up your posts? 

 

Tokugawa  makes a great point that winning LVO and placing highly is a completely different game than winning all, or most of your matchups.

 

But from what I can tell, after 6 rounds out of 9, and over 700 players we have:

 

14th - Dark Angels

20th - Black Templar

93rd - Space Wolves

94th - Space Wolves

95th - Salamanders

105th - Black Templars

110th  - White Scars

112th - Deathwing

116th - Black Templars

119th - Deathwatch

121st - Space Wolves

122nd - Iron Hands

129th - Blood Angels

141st - Dark Angels 

150th - Iron Hands

163rd - Deathwatch

171st - Black Templar

172nd - Deathwatch

.... and more.

 

The first two are 5/1. The rest are 4/2 and it keeps going; the first marine list that went 3/3 is ranked 255th with Iron hands. Very good performances considering marines actually sit at like a B++/A-- tier. 

 

I'm not really sure how you can continuously make these posts in such bad faith and not feel ashamed when others actually provide numbers or proof that completely contradicts you. 

 

 

I'm confused, are you saying that those results show marines to be good? I'm not sure those numbers are positive for marines are they? One in 14th place, one in 20th and the next at 93?

 

The stats I saw earlier today showed the number of people playing each codex (the stats were apparently from after the cut-off of lists but there were some yellow-carded lists that came in afterwards, in any case it doesn't really make much difference because it's a very fair indication of the majority of submissions).

 

Number of players per faction:

2nd, Nids = 46,

3rd, Custodes = 44,

4th, Drukhari = 41

 

But of course the codex with the most players was codex space marines (combined supplements) with 107. Of the total lists that had been counted, marines were at about a 1:5 ratio of marines to non-marines.

 

In terms of stats, if approximately 1/6th of all armies are marines, your examples of marines taking 2 places inside the top 90 doesn't exactly demonstrate that they're competitive, right? Quite the opposite, right? 5 inside the top 100 (3 barely scraping in) yet they account for ~17 in every 100 armies. I don't think the numbers prove what you're suggesting they do.

 

It would be too long to unpack the codex and argue its merits, but considering that since its release it has gone through wave after wave (5? 6?) of nerfs in the same time that most other armies have gotten new codexes which are more powerful than the SM dex ever was, it's hard to imagine how it could possibly be considered average or above. But from a more objective viewpoint, as others have said its pure W/L ratio is low, then even if it does score wins it usually does so with lower points, it regularly features towards the bottom of most "expert" tier-lists apart from the odd flavour of the month marine build which still rarely translates to tournament wins. The odd win pops up but it's a negligible amount compared to how many more are running them than any other army. A- is a huge stretch. If you're putting the majority of other armies below them I'd love to see your rankings.

 

HOWEVER having said all that, there's an unfortunate flipside here. Because GW has rolled all marines into one codex it puts GW in a really awkward position. People love playing marines of whatever variety. Now that they're all in one codex, if that codex is ever actually competitive and above average, it won't be a 1:5 ratio, I honestly believe we'll see events where it's more like 1:2 or 3. If drukhari are top tier, you'll see all drukhari players and meta-chasers showing up with them, but most people won't have a drukhari army on hand or be bothered building a whole new army. If nids are top tier, most people aren't gonna just start a nid army. But if marines were ever top tier, almost everyone could be tempted to chase the meta. It might be spread across different supplements, but I really think marines wouldn't be 15% of the armies but more like 25-30%.

 

The fact that as a bottom-tier codex (arguably, I suppose) they are still easily more than twice as popular as the next army, I have to say that it seems for the sake of variety they need to be kept around the bottom-middle of the pack or else we'll be stuck with marines everywhere. And if there's one thing that ever drove the community insane it was that 6 months where space marines were top tier.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

For a long time i always wonder why Marines showed so good results in tournaments in other countries while in my local (and german wide) meta Marines totally failed in competitive play. Now the LVO proves what I said for a much longer time. Space Marines are trash tier in competitive gaming.

Do you think the new codex is close (like the rumors said) or is it possible to get a huge point reduction in a few month.?

Do you ever provide numbers or proof to back up your posts?

 

Tokugawa makes a great point that winning LVO and placing highly is a completely different game than winning all, or most of your matchups.

 

But from what I can tell, after 6 rounds out of 9, and over 700 players we have:

 

14th - Dark Angels

20th - Black Templar

93rd - Space Wolves

94th - Space Wolves

95th - Salamanders

105th - Black Templars

110th - White Scars

112th - Deathwing

116th - Black Templars

119th - Deathwatch

121st - Space Wolves

122nd - Iron Hands

129th - Blood Angels

141st - Dark Angels

150th - Iron Hands

163rd - Deathwatch

171st - Black Templar

172nd - Deathwatch

.... and more.

 

The first two are 5/1. The rest are 4/2 and it keeps going; the first marine list that went 3/3 is ranked 255th with Iron hands. Very good performances considering marines actually sit at like a B++/A-- tier.

 

I'm not really sure how you can continuously make these posts in such bad faith and not feel ashamed when others actually provide numbers or proof that completely contradicts you.

I'm confused, are you saying that those results show marines to be good? I'm not sure those numbers are positive for marines are they? One in 14th place, one in 20th and the next at 93?

 

The stats I saw earlier today showed the number of people playing each codex (the stats were apparently from after the cut-off of lists but there were some yellow-carded lists that came in afterwards, in any case it doesn't really make much difference because it's a very fair indication of the majority of submissions).

 

Number of players per faction:

2nd, Nids = 46,

3rd, Custodes = 44,

4th, Drukhari = 41

 

But of course the codex with the most players was codex space marines (combined supplements) with 107. Of the total lists that had been counted, marines were at about a 1:5 ratio of marines to non-marines.

 

In terms of stats, if approximately 1/6th of all armies are marines, your examples of marines taking 2 places inside the top 90 doesn't exactly demonstrate that they're competitive, right? Quite the opposite, right? 5 inside the top 100 (3 barely scraping in) yet they account for ~17 in every 100 armies. I don't think the numbers prove what you're suggesting they do.

 

It would be too long to unpack the codex and argue its merits, but considering that since its release it has gone through wave after wave (5? 6?) of nerfs in the same time that most other armies have gotten new codexes which are more powerful than the SM dex ever was, it's hard to imagine how it could possibly be considered average or above. But from a more objective viewpoint, as others have said its pure W/L ratio is low, then even if it does score wins it usually does so with lower points, it regularly features towards the bottom of most "expert" tier-lists apart from the odd flavour of the month marine build which still rarely translates to tournament wins. The odd win pops up but it's a negligible amount compared to how many more are running them than any other army. A- is a huge stretch. If you're putting the majority of other armies below them I'd love to see your rankings.

 

HOWEVER having said all that, there's an unfortunate flipside here. Because GW has rolled all marines into one codex it puts GW in a really awkward position. People love playing marines of whatever variety. Now that they're all in one codex, if that codex is ever actually competitive and above average, it won't be a 1:5 ratio, I honestly believe we'll see events where it's more like 1:2 or 3. If drukhari are top tier, you'll see all drukhari players and meta-chasers showing up with them, but most people won't have a drukhari army on hand or be bothered building a whole new army. If nids are top tier, most people aren't gonna just start a nid army. But if marines were ever top tier, almost everyone could be tempted to chase the meta. It might be spread across different supplements, but I really think marines wouldn't be 15% of the armies but more like 25-30%.

 

The fact that as a bottom-tier codex (arguably, I suppose) they are still easily more than twice as popular as the next army, I have to say that it seems for the sake of variety they need to be kept around the bottom-middle of the pack or else we'll be stuck with marines everywhere. And if there's one thing that ever drove the community insane it was that 6 months where space marines were top tier.

im just curious but how do you define competitive?

Your top 100 seems pretty arbitrary and cherry picked so you could make a point.

 

There were 700 contestants, how many marine players finished in the top half of the tournament?

 

Because personally I define competitive as a faction that can expect to win roughly 50% of their games assuming a knowledgeable player getting results from the dice you would expect (I.e. not accounting for really bad luck with the dice.)

 

So if roughly 140 marine players were ranked 350 or better I’d say marines are without a doubt competitive.

(You said 1/5 were marines, that’s .2. .2x700=140, and half of 700 is 350, just to show my math and thought processes.)

Edited January 30, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[SkimaskMohawk]

What I'm saying is that if there's over 700 players, then solidly being in the top 30% is hardly trash.

 

What I'm saying is all that granulation of ranking down to the 255th was marine players going 4-2 at the most competitive tournament in the world; a very respectable score, and clearly not trash.

 

What I'm saying is that a book that's highest end competitive builds hover around an A- is doing right what you'd expect in the face of dark eldar, wracks, crushers, nids, grey knights and all the better lists. I never said they were the most competitive army, or that they would win lvo; I said they're capable of competing in tournament. Placing in the top 2%, the top 3% and even the top 30% for our guy who went 3/3 is demonstrable of being able to compete.

 

Compete =/= roll the event.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

What I'm saying is that if there's over 700 players, then solidly being in the top 30% is hardly trash.

 

What I'm saying is all that granulation of ranking down to the 255th was marine players going 4-2 at the most competitive tournament in the world; a very respectable score, and clearly not trash.

 

What I'm saying is that a book that's highest end competitive builds hover around an A- is doing right what you'd expect in the face of dark eldar, wracks, crushers, nids, grey knights and all the better lists. I never said they were the most competitive army, or that they would win lvo; I said they're capable of competing in tournament. Placing in the top 2%, the top 3% and even the top 30% for our guy who went 3/3 is demonstrable of being able to compete.

 

Compete =/= roll the event.

exactly

A lot of people seem to think competitive means always making top 5 in every single event, and making top 3 in most.

[Ultramarine1999]

What I'm saying is that if there's over 700 players, then solidly being in the top 30% is hardly trash.

 

What I'm saying is all that granulation of ranking down to the 255th was marine players going 4-2 at the most competitive tournament in the world; a very respectable score, and clearly not trash.

 

What I'm saying is that a book that's highest end competitive builds hover around an A- is doing right what you'd expect in the face of dark eldar, wracks, crushers, nids, grey knights and all the better lists. I never said they were the most competitive army, or that they would win lvo; I said they're capable of competing in tournament. Placing in the top 2%, the top 3% and even the top 30% for our guy who went 3/3 is demonstrable of being able to compete.

 

Compete =/= roll the event.

It shows that perhaps Dark Angels and Templars are capable of competing to some extent in very good hands, but the standard marine codex chapters not so much looking at the data.

[Dark Shepherd]

Worth remembering the LVO didnt include Chapter Approved changes that werent already published

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

What I'm saying is that if there's over 700 players, then solidly being in the top 30% is hardly trash.

 

What I'm saying is all that granulation of ranking down to the 255th was marine players going 4-2 at the most competitive tournament in the world; a very respectable score, and clearly not trash.

 

What I'm saying is that a book that's highest end competitive builds hover around an A- is doing right what you'd expect in the face of dark eldar, wracks, crushers, nids, grey knights and all the better lists. I never said they were the most competitive army, or that they would win lvo; I said they're capable of competing in tournament. Placing in the top 2%, the top 3% and even the top 30% for our guy who went 3/3 is demonstrable of being able to compete.

 

Compete =/= roll the event.

It shows that perhaps Dark Angels and Templars are capable of competing to some extent in very good hands, but the standard marine codex chapters not so much looking at the data.

I'm still trying to understand what you people mean with "compete" and how competitive you thought they were before the biggest tournament. What percentile of the competition is high enough to say they're able to compete in tournament for you?

 

I notice we've already shifted from "trash" to "not able to compete", so let me know when you guys want to firm up your definitions so we can analyze without moving goal posts.

[Medjugorje]

This seems…really reactionary and unduly salty.

 

SM in general are an ok faction in competitive play, depending on which chapter you play they can even be good.

 

I haven’t seen the LVO results, but if SM didn’t do well, that doesn’t make the army a trash tier faction

The SM never were seen as okay by many players. It was just obvious to see how often people thought they were strong. I think now we see the real strength of the books and SM are clrearly bad.

 

But tbh... I think the problem is that other factions are way too strong and crazy. Powercreep is too high.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Medjugorje

[phandaal]

I notice we've already shifted from "trash" to "not able to compete", so let me know when you guys want to firm up your definitions so we can analyze without moving goal posts.

Almost like there are multiple people independently choosing to post here without meeting beforehand to agree on the language they use, as has been the case literally since the creation of online message boards.

 

Come on, man. Be better than this.

[Medjugorje]

in my opinion Marines are not even midtier without even all codex books are released in 9th edition. 

 

GSC, Nids, Orks, Dark Eldar, Custodes, Harleqins, Tau are way stronger

 

-> so just Necrons and Death guard as 9th edition codex books are on similar leven (after CA)

even Knights and C Knights as 8th edition books are straight under Marines in terms of power.

 

Dont understand me wrong. In comparison to most books its normal because the most books are not as old. Its just very sad to see the new BT book in such a bad state. Completely new but outdated because of the old codex (and tbh.... very bad CA point adjustments).

[superwill]

I’m just curious but how do you define competitive?

Your top 100 seems pretty arbitrary and cherry picked so you could make a point.

 

There were 700 contestants, how many marine players finished in the top half of the tournament?

 

Because personally I define competitive as a faction that can expect to win roughly 50% of their games assuming a knowledgeable player getting results from the dice you would expect (I.e. not accounting for really bad luck with the dice.)

 

So if roughly 140 marine players were ranked 350 or better I’d say marines are without a doubt competitive.

(You said 1/5 were marines, that’s .2. .2x700=140, and half of 700 is 350, just to show my math and thought processes.)

I’m sorry, thanks for showing your maths but I find it confusing. You’re saying there are roughly 140 marine lists (based on my earlier numbers) and if all 140 of them finished in the top 350 (50%) then that makes them competitive? Or did you mean to divide the 140 by 2 as well and say if 70 are in the top 350?

 

Anyway, FWIW, it looks like marines are 150 lists out of 765 entries, giving them a ratio of 1:4. It looks like about 52 of those are currently in the top 50% and the other 98 are outside it, so I’ll let you decide what that means.

 

In terms of “5 in the the top 100” being arbitrary, I actually don’t think it was that cherry picked but a pretty fair demonstration of the disparity between the number of marines present vs number in the top bracket. And I picked it because the numbers the previous poster gave went up to 172nd place but I didn’t know whether there were any others inside the top 200.

 

Anyway, “Cherry picked” would’ve been saying “2 in the top 90”. But 5 in the top 100 is similar to 2 in the top 50, and overall a fair representation of how marines performed in that top bracket. The point was the disparity between the number of marine players (actually 20 per 100) and the number in the top bracket (5 per hundred).

 

What percentile of the competition is high enough to say they're able to compete in tournament for you?

 

I notice we've already shifted from "trash" to "not able to compete", so let me know when you guys want to firm up your definitions so we can analyze without moving goal posts.

Lol Edited January 30, 2022 by superwill

[Orange Knight]

It's hard to define exactly how competitive Marines are.

 

So how about this:

 

The most popular army (Marines) did not reach the top 10 despite having the most players. The drop off from a few lists that performed well to the rest of the Astartes pack was significant.

 

Armies that had less players had higher overall placements in the top 100.

 

The win ratio of Marines was below 50%

[SkimaskMohawk]

I would say that having 1 list finish within the top 30% doesn’t to me at all disprove the poor rating. When you have 1 list out of 150 in the top 30%, that’s proof for you that they can’t possibly be trash? Fascinating.

Where is that statement coming from lol. What's 30% of 750? Is there only one marine list in that number?

[Medjugorje]

Competitive is when a faction is as strong to win tournaments against top tier armies. But in some cases there are auto-losses. Even the BT player  Ogden who scored all won games with 100 points was not able to run undefeated. And moreso in the Top 8 are no space marines.

 

Even the strong Dark Angels (which played just with their own Terminators which are very different to other marines) are far from able to win the LVO.

 

 

 

@superwill - THX.