LVO Space Marine results

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I'm saying is that if there's over 700 players, then solidly being in the top 30% is hardly trash.

 

What I'm saying is all that granulation of ranking down to the 255th was marine players going 4-2 at the most competitive tournament in the world; a very respectable score, and clearly not trash.

 

What I'm saying is that a book that's highest end competitive builds hover around an A- is doing right what you'd expect in the face of dark eldar, wracks, crushers, nids, grey knights and all the better lists. I never said they were the most competitive army, or that they would win lvo; I said they're capable of competing in tournament. Placing in the top 2%, the top 3% and even the top 30% for our guy who went 3/3 is demonstrable of being able to compete.

 

Compete =/= roll the event.

It shows that perhaps Dark Angels and Templars are capable of competing to some extent in very good hands, but the standard marine codex chapters not so much looking at the data.

I'm still trying to understand what you people mean with "compete" and how competitive you thought they were before the biggest tournament. What percentile of the competition is high enough to say they're able to compete in tournament for you?

 

I notice we've already shifted from "trash" to "not able to compete", so let me know when you guys want to firm up your definitions so we can analyze without moving goal posts.

I'm not speaking for anyone else I'm making my own point, the fact remains most chapters win rates are below 40% some below 30% in some cases. You're the one throwing out general statements like marines are very good /A tier which is skeptical at best.

I've said their best lists are A-- and the faction isn't trash; that it is able of competing.

 

Does it have good internal balance? No. Do a lot of the subfactions need updates? Yes.

 

Can the codex still compete with an array of its supplements? Somehow, yes.

but look again... it cant compete EVEN with supplements.

…finishing in the top 10%-30% out of 700 people seems like they’re competing just fine with others…

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Space Marines need a new codex and serious point reductions. Just remember the last LVO final was Iron Hands versus Raven Guard.

[Tokugawa]

2019 iron hands crazy meta is more morbid than any time point later. Who want to see it again? I don't.

 

In the next 5 or 10 years GW and players of marine and non-marine armies will all pay more attention to iron hands' rules than other Marines.

[superwill]

Just curious if I followed a couple of these numbers correctly?

 

Marines were 5 out 100? Wouldn’t that 5%?

 

Marines outnumbered other factions 4 to 1?

- wouldn’t that lower that 5% to something relatively around 1-2%?

 

I could careless about one tournament but BCP seems to have compiled the largest data set possible and if I recall Marines are 40% well below the 50% target win rate for being average.

 

Most importantly … you can start them all in one Codex if you cant put all Marines in the same basket. Imperial Fist and Raven Guard just don’t compare to Iron Hands and Black Templar. White Scars and Salamander players can tell you how quickly a Chapter can go from Prince to Pauper. Frankly anyone making the argument “Marines are good” are talking about the two most recent factions that haven’t been nerfed yet.

Sorry yeah let me clarify.

 

Marines make up 20 in every 100 lists. This is a ratio of 1 marines list per 4 non-marines lists.

If the army had AVERAGE representation (neither higher than stastically expected nor lower) it would therefore have 20 lists in the top 100 (and 20 in the middle 100, 20 in the bottom 100 etc).

Instead, marines only have 5 lists in the top 100 (three of which are 93rd or worse).

This shows that they are extremely underrepresented in the top 100.

Likewise, statistically you would expect them to have ~50 armies inside the top 30% of competitors if they had even representation. Instead they have only 25.

They are extremely underrepresented in the top echelons and extremely overrepresented in the bottom echelons.

 

The only point being made was that you can’t use the fact that 5 are in the top 100 to prove that they’re decent, when this is actually 4x below the number they should have if they were average.

 

1. I don’t think a single event can provide enough data to say which factions are strong and which are weak.

2. 1 maybe even 2 in the top 100 could be written off as a fluke of 1 or 2 extremely good players being outliers.

3. I think the fact that SM players from multiple chapters end up in the top 30% of many if not most tournaments.

Doesn’t matter how many players are using the faction if the faction is trash/bad then few should be able to get success with that faction.

4. I sum competitive up as meaning good player can regularly get good results, with the faction.

Okay I see. Based on these answers I think I see we are not going to find closure to this discussion haha, we just have wildly different views of how statistics work and what counts as proof. Again, based on your criteria, the game currently has no trash tier armies and probably never will. Yay! ☺️

[Orange Knight]

Admitting that the faction is underpowered is not a bad thing. It's simply recognising the current reality.

 

That's not to say that we should suddenly succumb to depression. Most of us have been in the hobby for long enough to know that these things are often cyclical, and the next update will likely give the various chapters a boost.

 

That being said, trying to downplay the fact that the faction is underperforming is not doing anyone any favours.

We can see from the LVO results that the Marine spread does not represent a faction that is balanced appropriately, and worse still, we can see that various chapter are performing very badly compared to others.

[DesuVult]

To me, that Imperial Fists still lack a top 4 showing on 40kstats and are looking down the barrel of a 30% win rate shows that the codex is bad and some of the supplements are also bad. Some of the supplements are also good though. Dark Angels having permanent transhuman on terminators doesn't make space marines good, competitive, or even decent. It makes Dark Angel terminators good.

[Medjugorje]

To me, that Imperial Fists still lack a top 4 showing on 40kstats and are looking down the barrel of a 30% win rate shows that the codex is bad and some of the supplements are also bad. Some of the supplements are also good though. Dark Angels having permanent transhuman on terminators doesn't make space marines good, competitive, or even decent. It makes Dark Angel terminators good.

exactly this...

 

And the BT list (secound Marine in LVO) has Minitranshuman and 5++ 

This shows how bad the Marine codex really is. 

 

Problem here is that with a stronger codex we will see even more Black Templars and maybe more Dark Angels but not Imperial Fists except they get a new supp too.

Because we have very unbalanced supplements and a weak codex. And on point adjustments the big problem that making a vehicle viable for all marines means broken for BT (5++) and Iron Hands (Iron Stone)

Edited January 31, 2022 by Medjugorje

[Dark Shepherd]

I think you have to grade on a curve

 

The worse a supplement or codex is doing the less serious players will take it

And the inverse is true too

 

Then youve Astartes being the biggest beginner faction on top of that

[Orange Knight]

I think you have to grade on a curve

 

The worse a supplement or codex is doing the less serious players will take it

And the inverse is true too

 

Then youve Astartes being the biggest beginner faction on top of that

I don't think that many beginners make the effort to go and stay in Vegas, at great monetary expense, knowing they'll face the most brutal challenge on the tabletop.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The faction clearly underperforms a bit, very much due to being one of the first codices released (although not near as bad as Necrons...).

 

But what would be the solution? If they do a second Codex, it needs to be at least six months out, turning around for those factions that have waiting many years now, like Chaos Space Marines with a further Space Marine codex just two months later would quite a bit daft, and absurdly daft if one came out before all the current factions get a codex.

 

As well, they need to rein in what they do with it this time. I do not want a repeat of the 'glory days' back in 2019, that was ridiculous. The codex needs minor tweaks, maybe some more done with things like Repulsors and Land Raiders.

Edited January 31, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Admitting that the faction is underpowered is not a bad thing. It's simply recognising the current reality.

 

That's not to say that we should suddenly succumb to depression. Most of us have been in the hobby for long enough to know that these things are often cyclical, and the next update will likely give the various chapters a boost.

 

That being said, trying to downplay the fact that the faction is underperforming is not doing anyone any favours.

We can see from the LVO results that the Marine spread does not represent a faction that is balanced appropriately, and worse still, we can see that various chapter are performing very badly compared to others.

underpowered and trash tier are two separate things, and I don’t think any one here is arguing that marines aren’t underpowered.

[Emperor Ming]

Doesn't help that marines have not kept up with the current power creep, many weapons going to d3+3 or crazier and poor old and lascannons and mm are just d6  

 

Lots of weapons have gained ap values so power armour doesn't provide the protection it once used to

 

and bolters feel like they have been left behind as well, a lasgun with +1s    (not that many units have basic boltguns anymore)

[Orange Knight]

 

Admitting that the faction is underpowered is not a bad thing. It's simply recognising the current reality.

 

That's not to say that we should suddenly succumb to depression. Most of us have been in the hobby for long enough to know that these things are often cyclical, and the next update will likely give the various chapters a boost.

 

That being said, trying to downplay the fact that the faction is underperforming is not doing anyone any favours.

We can see from the LVO results that the Marine spread does not represent a faction that is balanced appropriately, and worse still, we can see that various chapter are performing very badly compared to others.

underpowered and trash tier are two separate things, and I don’t think any one here is arguing that marines aren’t underpowered.

I agree. But some of the Chapters are amongst the very worst performing armies in the game. 30% win rate probably is the lowest tier.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't know if multimeltas need to be better, but an improvement to Lascannons and standard Bolters wouldn't be unappreciated.

[phandaal]

 

 

Admitting that the faction is underpowered is not a bad thing. It's simply recognising the current reality.

 

That's not to say that we should suddenly succumb to depression. Most of us have been in the hobby for long enough to know that these things are often cyclical, and the next update will likely give the various chapters a boost.

 

That being said, trying to downplay the fact that the faction is underperforming is not doing anyone any favours.

We can see from the LVO results that the Marine spread does not represent a faction that is balanced appropriately, and worse still, we can see that various chapter are performing very badly compared to others.

underpowered and trash tier are two separate things, and I don’t think any one here is arguing that marines aren’t underpowered.

I agree. But some of the Chapters are amongst the very worst performing armies in the game. 30% win rate probably is the lowest tier.

 

 

 If Space Marines as a whole were not underpowered, you would expect all flavors of Marines to do well, but they do not.

 

Iron Hands, Black Templars, and Dark Angels are pretty good for a variety of reasons. That will probably change with latest update nerfing some common power combos and doing away with Dark Angels' Oaths of Moment/Stubborn Defiance combo.

 

Imperial Fists get dumpstered.

 

So it is more like Marines have a not-so-great core book that is elevated by power upgrades from individual supplements.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

Admitting that the faction is underpowered is not a bad thing. It's simply recognising the current reality.

 

That's not to say that we should suddenly succumb to depression. Most of us have been in the hobby for long enough to know that these things are often cyclical, and the next update will likely give the various chapters a boost.

 

That being said, trying to downplay the fact that the faction is underperforming is not doing anyone any favours.

We can see from the LVO results that the Marine spread does not represent a faction that is balanced appropriately, and worse still, we can see that various chapter are performing very badly compared to others.

underpowered and trash tier are two separate things, and I don’t think any one here is arguing that marines aren’t underpowered.

I agree. But some of the Chapters are amongst the very worst performing armies in the game. 30% win rate probably is the lowest tier.

unfortunately I don’t follow this stuff super closely, but I imagine that guard would be happy with a 30% win rate right now.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

Admitting that the faction is underpowered is not a bad thing. It's simply recognising the current reality.

 

That's not to say that we should suddenly succumb to depression. Most of us have been in the hobby for long enough to know that these things are often cyclical, and the next update will likely give the various chapters a boost.

 

That being said, trying to downplay the fact that the faction is underperforming is not doing anyone any favours.

We can see from the LVO results that the Marine spread does not represent a faction that is balanced appropriately, and worse still, we can see that various chapter are performing very badly compared to others.

underpowered and trash tier are two separate things, and I don’t think any one here is arguing that marines aren’t underpowered.

I agree. But some of the Chapters are amongst the very worst performing armies in the game. 30% win rate probably is the lowest tier.

If Space Marines as a whole were not underpowered, you would expect all flavors of Marines to do well, but they do not.

 

Iron Hands, Black Templars, and Dark Angels are pretty good for a variety of reasons. That will probably change with latest update nerfing some common power combos and doing away with Dark Angels' Oaths of Moment/Stubborn Defiance combo.

 

Imperial Fists get dumpstered.

 

So it is more like Marines have a not-so-great core book that is elevated by power upgrades from individual supplements.

chapter doctrines has an effect on that.

BA aren’t great by any means, but their rules mean they can perform decently well with only units in the main codex. 9th has shown a strong bias towards melee armies. IF are a more shooty focused army that’s probably why they haven’t been performing well. People who play IF don’t lean towards melee builds, and IF rules are wasted on melee builds even if you chose to go that route.

 

Meanwhile BA can shore up their shooting weaknesses with shooty units, while also being able to capitalize on the edition’s melee focus.

 

Also the main dex-supplement dex dynamic also is a big difference from every other faction-sub faction dynamic in the game.

If the main dex were an A tier dex all on its own regardless of chapter played supplements would either end up being bland and pointless or completely overpowered.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

An example

BA firstborn DC

They’re roughly C+ B- on their own.

However they compete for an elite slot with VGV which is just hands down a better unit. So in a tournament setting there’s no real reason to take FBDC

 

However putting FBDC into an FA slot has it competing with ASMs which i think they are slightly better than if they’re within roughly 3pts of each other.

 

The problem isn’t the main codex the problem is supplements in many cases. Maybe some chapter specific rules like BA could use a buff to +1 to wound in melee regardless if a charge or heroic intervention occurred.

 

But over all the SM codex is solid. Not great but solid.

It’s good enough that to make special units stand out they need to be unquestionably A+ or S tier units. So supplements that don’t have that and chapters that focus on shooting will be at a disadvantage.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Djangomatic82]

Doesn't help that marines have not kept up with the current power creep, many weapons going to d3+3 or crazier and poor old and lascannons and mm are just d6  

 

Lots of weapons have gained ap values so power armour doesn't provide the protection it once used to

 

and bolters feel like they have been left behind as well, a lasgun with +1s    (not that many units have basic boltguns anymore)

I think this gets close to a big problem Marines have that I don't believe any other faction has.

 

The largest portion of our units are being intentionally neglected because GW wants to push the new hotness (Primaris) without, or ignoring, the fact that that new line simply doesn't have the depth to provide us players with all of the tools that the First Born range provides and is being deliberately neglected.

[Orange Knight]

An example

BA firstborn DC

They’re roughly C+ B- on their own.

However they compete for an elite slot with VGV which is just hands down a better unit. So in a tournament setting there’s no real reason to take FBDC

 

However putting FBDC into an FA slot has it competing with ASMs which i think they are slightly better than if they’re within roughly 3pts of each other.

 

The problem isn’t the main codex the problem is supplements in many cases. Maybe some chapter specific rules like BA could use a buff to +1 to wound in melee regardless if a charge or heroic intervention occurred.

 

But over all the SM codex is solid. Not great but solid.

It’s good enough that to make special units stand out they need to be unquestionably A+ or S tier units. So supplements that don’t have that and chapters that focus on shooting will be at a disadvantage.

What is your definition of solid?

 

I ask because I have inspected the LVO results more closely since this discussion started.

 

The only thing they show is that a few Chapter specific unit and rule combinations allow for a better than average performance.

 

The rest of the chapters and general units are struggling, and are performing well below average. I don't think the book is solid at all.

 

There is too much arguing in this topic about semantics.

[Karhedron]

An example BA firstborn DC

They’re roughly C+ B- on their own.

However they compete for an elite slot with VGV which is just hands down a better unit. So in a tournament setting there’s no real reason to take FBDC

DC hit significantly harder than Van Vets, even moreso now that DC got a price cut in the latest CA while Van Vets saw the price of storm shields go up last time. DC also have access to Forlorn Fury which allows the possibility of T1 charges quite easily. Combine with a Priest and a Chaplain on Bike and you can easily have 10 DC in the Assault Doctrine with full rerolls hitting your enemy on the first turn. VanVets can't do that.

 

Don't get me wrong, Van Vets are nice a probably superior in a vaccuum but they rely heavily on Storm Shields while DC can use stratagems and Character support to achieve impressive feats of destruction. Turn 1 Alpha strikes have been greartly toned down in 9th edition but DC are one of the units can still pull off crazy amounts of damage if you get T1. Also the lack of alpha strikes elsewhere mean screening is less prevelant than it was in 8th.

[Dracos]

One thing that might help the discussion is set aside the triggering (for some) word of “trash”. OP admitted to being salty and we should allow our friends to vent a little bit as long as we can then bring the discussion back into a more moderate level headed debate/analysis.

 

They would t be the only one arguing from their heart though more than one of us has admitted to not being into the statistics , just that they feel a certain way from individual and experience

[DesuVult]

 

 

 

Admitting that the faction is underpowered is not a bad thing. It's simply recognising the current reality.

 

That's not to say that we should suddenly succumb to depression. Most of us have been in the hobby for long enough to know that these things are often cyclical, and the next update will likely give the various chapters a boost.

 

That being said, trying to downplay the fact that the faction is underperforming is not doing anyone any favours.

We can see from the LVO results that the Marine spread does not represent a faction that is balanced appropriately, and worse still, we can see that various chapter are performing very badly compared to others.

underpowered and trash tier are two separate things, and I don’t think any one here is arguing that marines aren’t underpowered.

I agree. But some of the Chapters are amongst the very worst performing armies in the game. 30% win rate probably is the lowest tier.

unfortunately I don’t follow this stuff super closely, but I imagine that guard would be happy with a 30% win rate right now.

IG and IF are 1% apart last I saw.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

One thing that might help the discussion is set aside the triggering (for some) word of “trash”. OP admitted to being salty and we should allow our friends to vent a little bit as long as we can then bring the discussion back into a more moderate level headed debate/analysis.

 

They would t be the only one arguing from their heart though more than one of us has admitted to not being into the statistics , just that they feel a certain way from individual and experience

 

That's fair if I'm being honest, I don't think 40k is a competitive game. We just have too many armies winning 60% of their games to really take it too seriously. Its a huge problem and I don't think buffing other books up to that level via codex creep has a place in a competitive game. 

 

I tend to view the marine codex as fine because the newer supplements (with the exception of BA), and Iron hands are close to the 50% at least in the last Goonhammer meta review. The older supplements are really showing their age and need to be replaced but I think the supplements add a lot to the strength of fraction. 

[Dark Shepherd]

 

I think you have to grade on a curve

 

The worse a supplement or codex is doing the less serious players will take it

And the inverse is true too

 

Then youve Astartes being the biggest beginner faction on top of that

I don't think that many beginners make the effort to go and stay in Vegas, at great monetary expense, knowing they'll face the most brutal challenge on the tabletop.

Maybe it applies more in general. But as we all know theres a lot of people with disposable income to burn on this hobby

 

 

We know at least 40 people took garbage tier marine chapters from the faction count. Whereas 20 too Guard and 19 took Craftworlds/Asuryani sic

Edited January 31, 2022 by Dark Shepherd