LVO Space Marine results

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

An example BA firstborn DC

They’re roughly C+ B- on their own.

However they compete for an elite slot with VGV which is just hands down a better unit. So in a tournament setting there’s no real reason to take FBDC

DC hit significantly harder than Van Vets, even moreso now that DC got a price cut in the latest CA while Van Vets saw the price of storm shields go up last time. DC also have access to Forlorn Fury which allows the possibility of T1 charges quite easily. Combine with a Priest and a Chaplain on Bike and you can easily have 10 DC in the Assault Doctrine with full rerolls hitting your enemy on the first turn. VanVets can't do that.

 

Don't get me wrong, Van Vets are nice a probably superior in a vaccuum but they rely heavily on Storm Shields while DC can use stratagems and Character support to achieve impressive feats of destruction. Turn 1 Alpha strikes have been greartly toned down in 9th edition but DC are one of the units can still pull off crazy amounts of damage if you get T1. Also the lack of alpha strikes elsewhere mean screening is less prevelant than it was in 8th.

DC have been the most useless unit I’ve used this edition

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So far there seems to be less chaff… just look at what happened to Orks — just seems like geedub really loves their universal msu which they have forced on the world meta 

[WrathOfTheLion]

So far there seems to be less chaff… just look at what happened to Orks — just seems like geedub really loves their universal msu which they have forced on the world meta 

A lot of your hoard armies haven't gotten a codex yet either might be part of that. Guard, Tyranids and Daemons all still haven't come out.

[Djangomatic82]

There are a lot of factors to troubleshoot when it comes to determining the effectiveness of marine armies; available secondaries alone provide huge swings in performance.

 

I think it’s telling that of all the marine point changes provided in the recent update, many (if not all besides vehicles?) were to the existing supplement special units like Wulfen, Death Company, Ravenwing etc. This leads me to believe there are going to be additional and/or significant points changes in the upcoming Marine 2.0 dex. The datasheets in that book won’t affect the existing supplements so it makes sense that BA/SW/DA got their point adjustments now. I think point changes will provide the biggest buff to marine lists. They can’t really adjust the stats much more right?

I think you might be right, but I find that pretty disappointing. The unit stat lines don't really need work, but a rework of weapons, army rules and datasheet abilities, either adjusting or adding to would be needed to bring a lot of under performing units into line.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I was speaking to a friend who has deep ties with geedub and he said he hasn’t heard anything regarding a new codex.

[phandaal]

 

There are a lot of factors to troubleshoot when it comes to determining the effectiveness of marine armies; available secondaries alone provide huge swings in performance.

 

I think it’s telling that of all the marine point changes provided in the recent update, many (if not all besides vehicles?) were to the existing supplement special units like Wulfen, Death Company, Ravenwing etc. This leads me to believe there are going to be additional and/or significant points changes in the upcoming Marine 2.0 dex. The datasheets in that book won’t affect the existing supplements so it makes sense that BA/SW/DA got their point adjustments now. I think point changes will provide the biggest buff to marine lists. They can’t really adjust the stats much more right?

I think you might be right, but I find that pretty disappointing. The unit stat lines don't really need work, but a rework of weapons, army rules and datasheet abilities, either adjusting or adding to would be needed to bring a lot of under performing units into line.

 

 

The lethality of 9th edition probably has a lot to do with it. Bolters hit like baby wipes in a land of multi-damage weapons, and units vanish like smoke when your opponent gets the jump on them.

 

That is why the best Marine armies right now are the ones with special rules that let them overcome this or take the most advantage of the toughest units in the baseline codex.

[Orange Knight]

 

 

There are a lot of factors to troubleshoot when it comes to determining the effectiveness of marine armies; available secondaries alone provide huge swings in performance.

 

I think it’s telling that of all the marine point changes provided in the recent update, many (if not all besides vehicles?) were to the existing supplement special units like Wulfen, Death Company, Ravenwing etc. This leads me to believe there are going to be additional and/or significant points changes in the upcoming Marine 2.0 dex. The datasheets in that book won’t affect the existing supplements so it makes sense that BA/SW/DA got their point adjustments now. I think point changes will provide the biggest buff to marine lists. They can’t really adjust the stats much more right?

I think you might be right, but I find that pretty disappointing. The unit stat lines don't really need work, but a rework of weapons, army rules and datasheet abilities, either adjusting or adding to would be needed to bring a lot of under performing units into line.

Two weeks ago I would be in complete agreement with this prediction.

 

However, having seen the updated Gravis Captain datasheet, I'm now expecting some rule shake-ups. GW went above simply adding additional wargear, they added a new stance base rule.

 

I have a feeling other units will see new rules and updates to their profiles.

[Djangomatic82]

 

 

There are a lot of factors to troubleshoot when it comes to determining the effectiveness of marine armies; available secondaries alone provide huge swings in performance.

 

I think it’s telling that of all the marine point changes provided in the recent update, many (if not all besides vehicles?) were to the existing supplement special units like Wulfen, Death Company, Ravenwing etc. This leads me to believe there are going to be additional and/or significant points changes in the upcoming Marine 2.0 dex. The datasheets in that book won’t affect the existing supplements so it makes sense that BA/SW/DA got their point adjustments now. I think point changes will provide the biggest buff to marine lists. They can’t really adjust the stats much more right?

I think you might be right, but I find that pretty disappointing. The unit stat lines don't really need work, but a rework of weapons, army rules and datasheet abilities, either adjusting or adding to would be needed to bring a lot of under performing units into line.

 

 

The lethality of 9th edition probably has a lot to do with it. Bolters hit like baby wipes in a land of multi-damage weapons, and units vanish like smoke when your opponent gets the jump on them.

 

That is why the best Marine armies right now are the ones with special rules that let them overcome this or take the most advantage of the toughest units in the baseline codex.

 

Yeah, I've been pondering if the switch at 8e to Ap degrading Sv might be a major culprit in this.

 

I think a return to the Sv binary of "you either get it or you don't", would go a long way to returning a feel of perceived durability for a lot of units, without the need for the current rules bloat treadmill, where a new and unique rule has to be created to counter proceeding durability rules, which prompt damage dealing buffs, ad infinitum.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Armor saves can be better than invulnerable saves and with the new proliferation of invulnerable save ignoring weapons it’s all you’ve got in these instances. They would have to release too much to change it.

[Djangomatic82]

Armor saves can be better than invulnerable saves and with the new proliferation of invulnerable save ignoring weapons it’s all you’ve got in these instances. They would have to release too much to change it.

I'm not convinced that it would be to much at all.

 

It seems that a lot of people are starting to feel like there's major rules bloat going on and I tend to agree.

Fixing that, as well as the durability issue is going to necessitate a major change.

 

Finding  a way to make the current Ap nomenclature work with a 7e style Sv binary would go much further towards that end than just saying its too much change to do.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s not rules bloat though and actually you have a better chance of making your saves.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I was speaking to a friend who has deep ties with geedub and he said he hasn’t heard anything regarding a new codex.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if there is a space marine codex version 2. Like what chaos got with shadow spear, where if you have the marine codex you buy a campaign book for the new datasheets or, if you don't you can just buy the new codex with everything. So, no new rules beyond the datasheets while keeping the flagship cheap to buy into.

 

 

 

Armor saves can be better than invulnerable saves and with the new proliferation of invulnerable save ignoring weapons it’s all you’ve got in these instances. They would have to release too much to change it.

I'm not convinced that it would be to much at all.

 

It seems that a lot of people are starting to feel like there's major rules bloat going on and I tend to agree.

Fixing that, as well as the durability issue is going to necessitate a major change.

 

Finding  a way to make the current Ap nomenclature work with a 7e style Sv binary would go much further towards that end than just saying its too much change to do.

 

 

I think that they're trying to speed the game up by making things die fast. Personally, I'd rather they streamline the rules for competitive play or even going to a 1500-point standard (smaller armies). I don't think they realize how much time all of the decisions that we have to make with secondaries, stratagems, and precise movement (to keep all the auras up) take. 

 

I actually wouldn't mind a damage phase so that models get a chance to interact before they're picked up.  

[BrainFireBob]

It’s not rules bloat though and actually you have a better chance of making your saves.

Depends on weapon. And all weapons don't equally proliferate

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Care to provide an example ?

[Charlo]

After the period of absolutely marine domination prior, it's good we've got a bit of a shakeup in the Meta.

 

Yes, Marines are currently a little on the weaker side in some circumstances but strong in others.

 

It's just the time of the Ad Mech, Drukhari & Custodes right now.

[Dark Shepherd]

After the period of absolutely marine domination prior, it's good we've got a bit of a shakeup in the Meta.

 

Yes, Marines are currently a little on the weaker side in some circumstances but strong in others.

 

It's just the time of the Ad Mech, Drukhari & Custodes right now.

Theyre definitely stronger at this point between their 2 codexes in 9th than they were in 8th, though that was a very soupy meta/Imperial meta

[Dracos]

After the period of absolutely marine domination prior, it's good we've got a bit of a shakeup in the Meta.

 

Yes, Marines are currently a little on the weaker side in some circumstances but strong in others.

 

It's just the time of the Ad Mech, Drukhari & Custodes right now.

 

A) That was almost exclusively Iron Hands because

 

B) Any other Chapter got the Hammer a couple months after they performed well

 

C) and even Iron Hands lasted all of 5 months after being hammered thrice.

 

It shows an extreme lack of understanding when someone labels "Marines good" or "Marines bad". There is as much difference between the Iron Hands and Raven Guard as there is between the Custodes and Grey Knights. The similarities between power armor armies are much thinner than their differences. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think this edition ends up like a bit odd compared to others as far as the fish goes, in that some absolutely major factions are last books, notably Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos Daemons, Imperial Guard and especially Chaos Space Marines with the Astartes move to 2W, being 2 years into the edition.

 

I even play Space Marines (Space Wolves and Dark Angels) as my main factions, but with Word Bearers as one of my main factions, I just cannot find the sympathy for the SM. The CSM 8.5E codex that they're currently using is just an iteration on their initial one, and older than the SM 8.5 codex and all the supplements that are lamented as out of date. I think that's how a lot of non-SM players are, with especially Eldar and CSM just pushed way to the end.

 

With how that release schedule is constructed, they're just not going to care.

Edited February 9, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Helias_Tancred]

I've always found it ironic that so many people are attracted to tournament competitive gameplay in a tabletop system that is so poorly designed and maintained for competitive gameplay.

[Helias_Tancred]

I'm obviously not much of a competitive player, let alone tournament level, but if I was I could only put so much care and heart into it given the context of the situation. It would feel like trying to ride a unicycle competitively around a competition dirt bike track.

 

More power to those of you who are into it though ... they owe you guys a better balanced game for the heart you put into it.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Helias Tancred

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"I just cannot find the sympathy for the SM."

 

It really only matters to those of us that do care.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[WrathOfTheLion]

"I just cannot find the sympathy for the SM.’

 

It really only matters to those of us that do care.

I do care, I've had a great time playing Space Wolves and Dark Angels in 9E and with this Codex, but my Word Bearers have the most garbage trait ever from like the beginning of 8E, so I obviously want that addressed before even considering my Space Marine armies again.

Edited February 9, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Chaos will always be always be singing the blues that’s for sure.

[WrathOfTheLion]

If there's like FAQs or modifications to the SM codex that can be made better in the intermediate, then that's good. But a call for a new Codex when Chaos Space Marines are still rocking 1W is just completely shameless. Personally, I also just don't like buying a new book so often. Comes with moving from separate codices into the base SM codex, but I really don't want two books an edition to be a precedent.

Edited February 9, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve said elsewhere a friend of mine with deep ties to geedub told me he’s heard nothing in regards to a codex or supplements for Space Marines. We all know CSM is getting a new dex so just be a bit more patient.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Black Blow Fly