Guard has lost its appeal

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I'm not a Guard player, though I do have an Inquisition Stormtrooper force that uses Scion rules because that's the only way I can make the Inquisition work, so my view is slightly skewed.

 

Like librisrogue, I use Solar Auxlia models for my Scions. In my case, it's not because I inherently dislike the current Scion models, but rather I love the Auxilia sculpts. The current Scion models are alright, but not to my taste- the armor for me seems more like Knightly House-aligned feudal troops (though the helmets are some of the best GW makes). I would much prefer the old Kasrkin-style models for Scions, and the rumor engine stuff seems like it might happen, which would be nice. I do like the Taurox Primes, but it took building and playing 4 of them for me to get used to them aesthetically (game-play they rock, love the light tank that pumps out a ton of anti-infantry firepower) mainly due to the weird little track units they have.

 

As for IG overall, it needs a refresh in both rules and model line. Cadian and Catachan sculpts are now decades old, as are most of the vehicles, and while they are still serviceable they need some love. I would personally remove the Catachan boxes, they've run their course and I don't think 80s action-star jungle fighters are going to be a great seller in the future. Give the army something unique and "grim-darky" that will be a refreshing change from just basic body-armor Cadians. Whether that is something like a Steel Legion/DKoK-style gasmask army or something entirely new, doesn't matter. Just do something that looks fun and interesting without be over-the-top cartoony.

i think Catachans can still sell just fine. Buff action hero types are still all over the pop culture scene…I mean have you seen the rock? He’s every where. And how many expendables movies are there now?

[Lord_Ikka]

 

I'm not a Guard player, though I do have an Inquisition Stormtrooper force that uses Scion rules because that's the only way I can make the Inquisition work, so my view is slightly skewed.

 

Like librisrogue, I use Solar Auxlia models for my Scions. In my case, it's not because I inherently dislike the current Scion models, but rather I love the Auxilia sculpts. The current Scion models are alright, but not to my taste- the armor for me seems more like Knightly House-aligned feudal troops (though the helmets are some of the best GW makes). I would much prefer the old Kasrkin-style models for Scions, and the rumor engine stuff seems like it might happen, which would be nice. I do like the Taurox Primes, but it took building and playing 4 of them for me to get used to them aesthetically (game-play they rock, love the light tank that pumps out a ton of anti-infantry firepower) mainly due to the weird little track units they have.

 

As for IG overall, it needs a refresh in both rules and model line. Cadian and Catachan sculpts are now decades old, as are most of the vehicles, and while they are still serviceable they need some love. I would personally remove the Catachan boxes, they've run their course and I don't think 80s action-star jungle fighters are going to be a great seller in the future. Give the army something unique and "grim-darky" that will be a refreshing change from just basic body-armor Cadians. Whether that is something like a Steel Legion/DKoK-style gasmask army or something entirely new, doesn't matter. Just do something that looks fun and interesting without be over-the-top cartoony.

i think Catachans can still sell just fine. Buff action hero types are still all over the pop culture scene…I mean have you seen the rock? He’s every where. And how many expendables movies are there now?

 

As a kill-team, I like them just fine. As a whole army, not so much- they are out of proportion even for GW hero-style, and just too much for me. That's just my opinion though, I know plenty of people still have decent opinions of the Catachans. I just would prefer something else as the second baseline IG regiment.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

I'm not a Guard player, though I do have an Inquisition Stormtrooper force that uses Scion rules because that's the only way I can make the Inquisition work, so my view is slightly skewed.

 

Like librisrogue, I use Solar Auxlia models for my Scions. In my case, it's not because I inherently dislike the current Scion models, but rather I love the Auxilia sculpts. The current Scion models are alright, but not to my taste- the armor for me seems more like Knightly House-aligned feudal troops (though the helmets are some of the best GW makes). I would much prefer the old Kasrkin-style models for Scions, and the rumor engine stuff seems like it might happen, which would be nice. I do like the Taurox Primes, but it took building and playing 4 of them for me to get used to them aesthetically (game-play they rock, love the light tank that pumps out a ton of anti-infantry firepower) mainly due to the weird little track units they have.

 

As for IG overall, it needs a refresh in both rules and model line. Cadian and Catachan sculpts are now decades old, as are most of the vehicles, and while they are still serviceable they need some love. I would personally remove the Catachan boxes, they've run their course and I don't think 80s action-star jungle fighters are going to be a great seller in the future. Give the army something unique and "grim-darky" that will be a refreshing change from just basic body-armor Cadians. Whether that is something like a Steel Legion/DKoK-style gasmask army or something entirely new, doesn't matter. Just do something that looks fun and interesting without be over-the-top cartoony.

i think Catachans can still sell just fine. Buff action hero types are still all over the pop culture scene…I mean have you seen the rock? He’s every where. And how many expendables movies are there now?

As a kill-team, I like them just fine. As a whole army, not so much- they are out of proportion even for GW hero-style, and just too much for me. That's just my opinion though, I know plenty of people still have decent opinions of the Catachans. I just would prefer something else as the second baseline IG regiment.

they definitely need a redesign no doubt, but I think the theme and aesthetic of the army still has plenty of appeal to people.

Also think regimental codexes or supplements would be good for the faction as well.

Imagine if space marines spent 20 years all playing out of the same book as every other chapter.

[Lord_Ikka]

 

they definitely need a redesign no doubt, but I think the theme and aesthetic of the army still has plenty of appeal to people.

Also think regimental codexes or supplements would be good for the faction as well.

Imagine if space marines spent 20 years all playing out of the same book as every other chapter.

 

The problem with having regimental codices would be that unlike SM, IG regiments look vastly different from each other in terms of wargear and even weaponry. Cadians, Death Korps, and Vostryan Firstborn all look different in a base way (different armor, weapons, and headgear), while different Space Marine Chapters tend to only really differ in paint scheme (there are other differences such as specialty units, but the general units are all the same). So putting out regimental supplements isn't going to fly because the players would then want to have their models actually look like the art/description, which would require a lot of new infantry models boxes. That won't happen- we'll be lucky if we get one regiment worth of updated models, let alone four or five. 

 

Most SM chapters have spent twenty years with the same rules, because other than the non-codex chapters (SW, BA, DA), none of the other chapters had a supplement since 3rd edition until 8th edition came out.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Lord_Ikka

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

they definitely need a redesign no doubt, but I think the theme and aesthetic of the army still has plenty of appeal to people.

Also think regimental codexes or supplements would be good for the faction as well.

Imagine if space marines spent 20 years all playing out of the same book as every other chapter.

 

The problem with having regimental codices would be that unlike SM, IG regiments look vastly different from each other in terms of wargear and even weaponry. Cadians, Death Korps, and Vostryan Firstborn all look different in a base way (different armor, weapons, and headgear), while different Space Marine Chapters tend to only really differ in paint scheme (there are other differences such as specialty units, but the general units are all the same). So putting out regimental supplements isn't going to fly because the players would then want to have their models actually look like the art/description, which would require a lot of new infantry models boxes. That won't happen- we'll be lucky if we get one regiment worth of updated models, let alone four or five.

 

Most SM chapters have spent twenty years with the same rules, because other than the non-codex chapters (SW, BA, DA), none of the other chapters had a supplement since 3rd edition until 8th edition came out.

i mean putting out those ranges would be the smart thing for GW to do since it would make them more money.

 

And marines didn’t really need more than that because the other chapters and gene lines didn’t have anything special or to differentiate them at all…and as far as I’m concerned UM and IF really have no meaningful differences that would justify one getting a supplement or their own stand alone codex.

 

It doesn’t even need to be regiment specific codexes, but theme specific.

Jungle fighters

Trench specialists

Desert

Etc just to represent the theoretical breadth of the IG.

 

Jungle fighters could then cover not only Catachans but also tanith

Trench specialists could then cover DKOK and steel legion

Edited April 2, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Lord_Ikka]

 

 

they definitely need a redesign no doubt, but I think the theme and aesthetic of the army still has plenty of appeal to people.

Also think regimental codexes or supplements would be good for the faction as well.

Imagine if space marines spent 20 years all playing out of the same book as every other chapter.

The problem with having regimental codices would be that unlike SM, IG regiments look vastly different from each other in terms of wargear and even weaponry. Cadians, Death Korps, and Vostryan Firstborn all look different in a base way (different armor, weapons, and headgear), while different Space Marine Chapters tend to only really differ in paint scheme (there are other differences such as specialty units, but the general units are all the same). So putting out regimental supplements isn't going to fly because the players would then want to have their models actually look like the art/description, which would require a lot of new infantry models boxes. That won't happen- we'll be lucky if we get one regiment worth of updated models, let alone four or five.

 

Most SM chapters have spent twenty years with the same rules, because other than the non-codex chapters (SW, BA, DA), none of the other chapters had a supplement since 3rd edition until 8th edition came out.

i mean putting out those ranges would be the smart thing for GW to do since it would make them more money.

 

Possibly- you run the risk of oversaturating the market though, and GW doesn't like taking risks. You can only have so much shelf space in stores and only so much production capacity for model lines. GW generally tends to just do direct replacements when refreshing a model line and not put out too many new models, so you see the Aeldari line only really got two new models (Shroud Runners/new Auturach) while they updated the Avatar/Rangers/Guardians/etc... So if GW does do a refresher of IG, you most likely won't see a bunch of new infantry regiment boxes, but most likely a few updated boxes and one or two new boxes/units.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

they definitely need a redesign no doubt, but I think the theme and aesthetic of the army still has plenty of appeal to people.

Also think regimental codexes or supplements would be good for the faction as well.

Imagine if space marines spent 20 years all playing out of the same book as every other chapter.

The problem with having regimental codices would be that unlike SM, IG regiments look vastly different from each other in terms of wargear and even weaponry. Cadians, Death Korps, and Vostryan Firstborn all look different in a base way (different armor, weapons, and headgear), while different Space Marine Chapters tend to only really differ in paint scheme (there are other differences such as specialty units, but the general units are all the same). So putting out regimental supplements isn't going to fly because the players would then want to have their models actually look like the art/description, which would require a lot of new infantry models boxes. That won't happen- we'll be lucky if we get one regiment worth of updated models, let alone four or five.

 

Most SM chapters have spent twenty years with the same rules, because other than the non-codex chapters (SW, BA, DA), none of the other chapters had a supplement since 3rd edition until 8th edition came out.

i mean putting out those ranges would be the smart thing for GW to do since it would make them more money.

Possibly- you run the risk of oversaturating the market though, and GW doesn't like taking risks. You can only have so much shelf space in stores and only so much production capacity for model lines. GW generally tends to just do direct replacements when refreshing a model line and not put out too many new models, so you see the Aeldari line only really got two new models (Shroud Runners/new Auturach) while they updated the Avatar/Rangers/Guardians/etc... So if GW does do a refresher of IG, you most likely won't see a bunch of new infantry regiment boxes, but most likely a few updated boxes and one or two new boxes/units.

they don’t really need to do all new model lines. They have plenty of discontinued model lines they can refresh in tallarn, valhallan, voystroyan, etc.

 

And they could probably find a low risk way to test it out.

A 3D scanner is a small investment for them. They could buy one scan all of their old metal models in a day, maybe two, and then have some people spend a few days on each regiment, and breaking them apart into subassemblies, and then sell those as STL files, or just print them themselves in a 3D printer farm. Again, a relatively small investment for them.

 

And if I’m not mistaken they’ve brought back some of those OOP lines for limited runs. Metal or plastic idk but I’d bet as plastic, so yeah they have the ranges already, they just have to refresh them.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Lord_Ikka]

 

they don’t really need to do all new model lines. They have plenty of discontinued model lines they can refresh in tallarn, valhallan, voystroyan, etc.

 

And they could probably find a low risk way to test it out.

A 3D scanner is a small investment for them. They could buy one scan all of their old metal models in a day, maybe two, and then have some people spend a few days on each regiment, and breaking them apart into subassemblies, and then sell those as STL files, or just print them themselves in a 3D printer farm. Again, a relatively small investment for them.

 

That's not how GW produces their models and they haven't shown any sort of willingness to break into the digital/3d printing age- heck, not having 9th ed codices available in electronic from was a step back from 8th ed. We know they use 3d printing for their test models, but their primary method of making models is injection molding; moving to 3d printing on the scale that they produce models would be a large, expensive undertaking. 

 

If it was another company, I would say your suggestion has merit and could possibly work. This is GW however- they are super controlling about everything they do and do not move swiftly with new technology.

[domsto]

The current topic about the leman Russ got me thinking…

With the rumored new heavy-heavy tank, maybe a shake up of the army is needed.

For example we have what? Half a dozen leman Russ variants? And most just don’t work at all for their points, maybe a lore change and some awesome new rules for the new tank push the LR to the back, begins to take the place of the guard’s primary MBT role.

 

I generally think a shake up is needed to regain my interest, just not a primaris level shake up

It could be that GW keeps the Leman Russ bad by choice so everybody would buy the new better Tank. With all of my Heart i hope i am wrong and GW gets their Rules together and the LR becomes usefull again. But i am too long into the Hobby to truely believe in GW anymore.

 

The Leman Russ embody Guard with every Bolt. It's brute force, nothing fancy super Sci-fi. Just a big metal Box with a big Gun. I would be sad if this Iconic model gets pushed to second Line

[Sete]

Problem with this IG rumour is that it's probably Q4 of the year.

Kasrkin is as good as confirmed with the rumour image.

[Emperor Ming]

In previous editions I could roughly guess how they could fix a codex, some stat increases and point decreases here and there generally

 

But the creep is just so so bad this time round, Ive got no idea how they are going to bring guard up to 9th

 

Even with the weapon creep they will no doubt get, survivability of vehicle's will ever be the main problem I think

 

and being the last dex as well, meaning 10th wont be far behind, is that good or bad, IDK

[The Pounder]

I’m cautiously optimistic!

 

I look at what they’ve done with T’au and Tyranids and can imagine Guard getting the same treatment.

 

Hopefully the new tank etc will have great rules so we can field a number of different builds and still be “competitive”

 

Regimental supplements would be great but I don’t think they’ll go down that route.

 

As long as we can hold our own again I’ll be a happy Korpsman!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

The current topic about the leman Russ got me thinking…

With the rumored new heavy-heavy tank, maybe a shake up of the army is needed.

For example we have what? Half a dozen leman Russ variants? And most just don’t work at all for their points, maybe a lore change and some awesome new rules for the new tank push the LR to the back, begins to take the place of the guard’s primary MBT role.

 

I generally think a shake up is needed to regain my interest, just not a primaris level shake up

It could be that GW keeps the Leman Russ bad by choice so everybody would buy the new better Tank. With all of my Heart i hope i am wrong and GW gets their Rules together and the LR becomes usefull again. But i am too long into the Hobby to truely believe in GW anymore.

 

The Leman Russ embody Guard with every Bolt. It's brute force, nothing fancy super Sci-fi. Just a big metal Box with a big Gun. I would be sad if this Iconic model gets pushed to second Line

I agree in theory on the Russ but I just don’t think the Russ really does it from a gameplay standpoint point or from a design standpoint.

Sure it gives a general WWI or interwar vibe, but unlike the landraider there’s no direct obvious inspiration that it parodies.

 

Honestly I think the malcador fits as a decent parody of something like char 1b tank. Especially the defender variant of the the malcador. Like a char 1b and a mkIV had a baby.

 

And thematically the baneblade is a gun parody of the nazi Rat concept tank.

The chimera is is a WWI-ified BMP

 

The leman Russ just doesn’t do that for me.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[War of the Eagle]

Its possible they will leave the Russ a bit nerfed to make the new tank desirable, like they did with carifexs when they came out with bigger plastic bugs. Im a bit on the optimistic side tho, if the Vanquisher gets a venom cannon or railgun treatment it will be useable.

 

To me the guards Appeal has always been playing the human hoard under dog. Sure id love Plastic Steal legion instead of Cadian stuff but if anyone knows my conversion work I make my army my own. I think Guard isent about cool looking stuff but that easy to manufacture disposable grit. So they will always keep their appeal. Just hoping for our codex to be brought in line.

 

Wouldn't mind some SM style head upgrade sprues for differant regiments tho.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Going back to my guard for a game this weekend and embarking on a project to give them a new paint job.

 

As I look through the codex though I still can’t help but feel ‘meh’ about everything in it.

Really hope the new releases whenever they come change this

[jarms48]

We’re definitely struggling and aren’t getting the buffs we need to keep us afloat until the next codex.

 

Our winrate from meta watch is basically bouncing between mid-20’s to mid-30’s top. Those higher win rates is largely from pure infantry spam lists. Which are difficult to pilot and not very fun to actually play.

[domsto]

Guard as it is right now has only one rudimentary valid build comprised of two Manticore with full payload, Tank Commanders with Demolisher and Melta as these two Units are the only Units in the Codex which can reliable kill the newest Enemy Models. Fill the Rest with Infantry Spam. Cadia of course.

Every other Build seems non functioning in the new Meta. Hopefully Guard will get some of it's versatilety back.

[jarms48]

Manticores aren’t good anymore either. They’ve been nerfed to kill 1.7 marines.

[jarms48]

The current topic about the leman Russ got me thinking…

With the rumored new heavy-heavy tank, maybe a shake up of the army is needed.

 

For example we have what? Half a dozen leman Russ variants? And most just don’t work at all for their points, maybe a lore change and some awesome new rules for the new tank push the LR to the back, begins to take the place of the guard’s primary MBT role.

I generally think a shake up is needed to regain my interest, just not a primaris level shake up

The problem with the Russ variants isn’t that there’s bad options. It’s that they aren’t costed differently between the variants.

 

Though on the topic of the new tank, I’m not excited. At all. It’s going to overshadow either the Russ, the Malcador, the Macharius, or the Baneblade. Perhaps all of them. Now we’re going to have 5 tanks that basically all do the same things.

[Emperor Ming]

Even if the russ autocannon turret refunded you points, I wouldn't take it  

 

and currently it costs more than the demolisher  

[domsto]

Manticores aren’t good anymore either. They’ve been nerfed to kill 1.7 marines.

The sad parts is, that yes the Manticore isn't good anymore, but it's still the best thing we currently have.

Tells you a lot about the current situation for Guard

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

The current topic about the leman Russ got me thinking…

With the rumored new heavy-heavy tank, maybe a shake up of the army is needed.

 

For example we have what? Half a dozen leman Russ variants? And most just don’t work at all for their points, maybe a lore change and some awesome new rules for the new tank push the LR to the back, begins to take the place of the guard’s primary MBT role.

I generally think a shake up is needed to regain my interest, just not a primaris level shake up

The problem with the Russ variants isn’t that there’s bad options. It’s that they aren’t costed differently between the variants.

 

Though on the topic of the new tank, I’m not excited. At all. It’s going to overshadow either the Russ, the Malcador, the Macharius, or the Baneblade. Perhaps all of them. Now we’re going to have 5 tanks that basically all do the same things.

and we have loads of artillery that all do essentially the same thing as well. It is what it is.

 

I don’t much care about the tournament scene or meta, it’s just that as I flip through the codex the models are just uninspired.

 

The heavily armored infantry is the only new/updated line the codex really has had in like 20 years.

Redesigning the Russ a little bit, might help, but I hope the new tank has something a bit more interesting to it.

[jarms48]

Even if the russ autocannon turret refunded you points, I wouldn't take it:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

and currently it costs more than the demolisher:lol: :lol: :lol:

Lol.

 

I’ve said it before, but all Russes should be around 110 - 130 points. Exterminator would be fine around 115.

[MrKoolPants]

I honestly hope that the Russ takes a monumental points dive, and we get the brief glory that things like the voidweaver got. Accidental horrible undercosting that drives us straight to the top of the meta for like six weeks until a balance dataslate comes out. Then when people sell off their hastily bought guard armies, we reap all the benefits on eBay.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I honestly hope that the Russ takes a monumental points dive, and we get the brief glory that things like the voidweaver got. Accidental horrible undercosting that drives us straight to the top of the meta for like six weeks until a balance dataslate comes out. Then when people sell off their hastily bought guard armies, we reap all the benefits on eBay.

with a new tank coming out I don’t foresee the leman Russ being too good whenever the next codex comes out.