Guard has lost its appeal

[sairence]

I wouldn't be so sure. Plenty of newer models that didn't make an immediate splash, if they made one at all. For example, arguably one of the best units in the Craftworlds army was the Falcon, not any of the new things.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I wouldn't be so sure. Plenty of newer models that didn't make an immediate splash, if they made one at all. For example, arguably one of the best units in the Craftworlds army was the Falcon, not any of the new things.

thats great but they didn’t release anything new that would fill the same role.

 

We’re getting a new unit that will fill the same or nearly the same role as the Russ. Craftworlds didn’t get any such new unit compared the falcon.

[Lord_Ikka]

 

Though on the topic of the new tank, I’m not excited. At all. It’s going to overshadow either the Russ, the Malcador, the Macharius, or the Baneblade. Perhaps all of them. Now we’re going to have 5 tanks that basically all do the same things.

 

Well, to be honest both the Malcador (minus the Infernus pattern) and the Macharius are pretty bad. The Malcador suffers from not having the special rules that a Leman Russ does- Grinding Advance and now the 2+ armor save, so it is both less lethal and less survivable (even with 18 Wounds) than the Leman Russ, but costs more. The Macharius is just kinda meh, especially for a LoW. It doesn't have the firepower to compete with really any of the Baneblade variants, having a lot of stubbers rather than heavy bolters (though a couple can be switched out to heavy bolters) and main weapons that are just lackluster, while also having less wounds. Neither the Malcador nor the Macharius really have a specific use in the IG- the Malcador can be traded out for a Leman Russ or two and the lighter tanks will have the same or near the same effect, while the Macharius serves as a cheap, less effective Baneblade (being ironically more expensive in real world dollars of course). 

 

The rumored new IG tank is supposed to fit in where a Malcador would- a heavy tank that is more tough and durable than a Leman Russ but not up to the firepower of LoW standards like a Baneblade. Right now, neither the Malcador or Macharius really fit that definition well due to their lack of either defense or firepower. I mean, in-universe both are ancient war machines that aren't quite up to the standards of the more "modern" Leman Russ/Baneblade patterns of tank, but it is kind of galling that as players we are getting charged a premium in points for tanks that aren't as good- they should be less costly at a minimum, and/or have some rules update that makes them desirable to play. Any new heavy tank will outshine them simply because they aren't good tanks to begin with, really only having a place in an IG army because they legitimately look good. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

Though on the topic of the new tank, I’m not excited. At all. It’s going to overshadow either the Russ, the Malcador, the Macharius, or the Baneblade. Perhaps all of them. Now we’re going to have 5 tanks that basically all do the same things.

 

Well, to be honest both the Malcador (minus the Infernus pattern) and the Macharius are pretty bad. The Malcador suffers from not having the special rules that a Leman Russ does- Grinding Advance and now the 2+ armor save, so it is both less lethal and less survivable (even with 18 Wounds) than the Leman Russ, but costs more. The Macharius is just kinda meh, especially for a LoW. It doesn't have the firepower to compete with really any of the Baneblade variants, having a lot of stubbers rather than heavy bolters (though a couple can be switched out to heavy bolters) and main weapons that are just lackluster, while also having less wounds. Neither the Malcador nor the Macharius really have a specific use in the IG- the Malcador can be traded out for a Leman Russ or two and the lighter tanks will have the same or near the same effect, while the Macharius serves as a cheap, less effective Baneblade (being ironically more expensive in real world dollars of course).

 

The rumored new IG tank is supposed to fit in where a Malcador would- a heavy tank that is more tough and durable than a Leman Russ but not up to the firepower of LoW standards like a Baneblade. Right now, neither the Malcador or Macharius really fit that definition well due to their lack of either defense or firepower. I mean, in-universe both are ancient war machines that aren't quite up to the standards of the more "modern" Leman Russ/Baneblade patterns of tank, but it is kind of galling that as players we are getting charged a premium in points for tanks that aren't as good- they should be less costly at a minimum, and/or have some rules update that makes them desirable to play. Any new heavy tank will outshine them simply because they aren't good tanks to begin with, really only having a place in an IG army because they legitimately look good.

I love the look of the malcador defender and was really hoping it would be the new tank tbh.

 

Some simple new codex/edition rules changes would make it just as good if not better than a Russ for the points. Grinding advance, and 2+ save for it and I think it would be beastly.

[Emperor Ming]

Its funny that even in regards to our fw stuff its mostly trash  

 

look at other factions fw stuff and your like wow that's good 

[Lord_Ikka]

Its funny that even in regards to our fw stuff its mostly trash  

 

look at other factions fw stuff and your like wow that's good 

That's not entirely accurate. Most factions have a couple of good options from FW, but in general FW stuff isn't as OP this edition like it was in earlier ones. There's still plenty of junk in a lot of factions FW options; look at how many entries the SM have yet you really only see two used in any real amount (especially in competitive environments)- Leviathan and Contemptor dreads. Not saying that the IG FW stuff doesn't need updated because it really does, but FW unit in general aren't used a lot. The only real army that consistently uses a lot of FW is Custodes, whose FW units are very good all-around and fill in some needed niches in the Custodes line (like ranged anti-tank or heavy units like dreads). 

[mertbl]

I still laugh at the 7th to 8th transition for the exterminator. Every twin linked gun got double the shots except him. What was so troublesome about an 8 shot autocannon on a leman russ?

 

 

Even if the russ autocannon turret refunded you points, I wouldn't take it:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

and currently it costs more than the demolisher:lol: :lol: :lol:

Lol.

 

I’ve said it before, but all Russes should be around 110 - 130 points. Exterminator would be fine around 115.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I still laugh at the 7th to 8th transition for the exterminator. Every twin linked gun got double the shots except him. What was so troublesome about an 8 shot autocannon on a leman russ?

 

 

 

Even if the russ autocannon turret refunded you points, I wouldn't take it:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

and currently it costs more than the demolisher:lol: :lol: :lol:

Lol.

 

I’ve said it before, but all Russes should be around 110 - 130 points. Exterminator would be fine around 115.

theyd have to make the hydra 16 shots then?

Best I’ve got, and that does seem a tad OP. There wouldn’t be any real logic to it but then just make the hydra 10 or 12 shots

Edited May 22, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[sairence]

8 shots was a lot at the start of 8th, I always figured it seemed excessive to them.

 

Of course then the Primaris tanks came out and the killiness just went up and up and up. I don't think and 8 shot Exterminator would have broken the game then, especially as GW still prizes it as one of the most expensive turrets, and it definitely won't cause anyone to blink an eye now. The Hydra as well...16 shots with the still built in -1 against non-Fly would really not be the end of the world.

 

I reckon we'll land somewhere in the middle when the time comes.

 

For what it's worth, I have actively stopped myself thinking about any idea for Guard as too op. The Codex has so little power unit that we have no other choice but to dream big.

Edited May 22, 2022 by sairence

[Emperor Ming]

Autocannons just need a buff in general

 

and the leman russ ones, should be special, something like armiger autocannons

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Autocannons just need a buff in general

 

and the leman russ ones, should be special, something like armiger autocannons

amen brother.

[jarms48]

 

I love the look of the malcador defender and was really hoping it would be the new tank tbh.

 

Some simple new codex/edition rules changes would make it just as good if not better than a Russ for the points. Grinding advance, and 2+ save for it and I think it would be beastly.

 

 

Would have been super simple for GW to do as well. Just look at the new plastic HH tanks. Basically the same, and cheaper, than the FW ones. 

 

Something like:

 

Malcador kit, can build one of the following:

- Malcador Battle Tank

- Malcador Annihilator 

- Malcador Defender 

- Malcador Infernus 

- Valdor Tank Hunter

- Minotaur

 

The 2 later should definitely be there as they're based on the Malcador chassis. Though, you could perhaps even split them into 2 kits cause there's so many variants.

 

Same could have been done with the Macharius. Just have 1 kit with options for:

- Macharius

- Macharius Vanquisher

- Macharius Vulcan

- Macharius Omega

[domsto]

I've played in a local Tournament this weekend and i have to say it's kinnda weird that Guard is outgunned by every other Faction at this point. Even by Orcs.

But i noticed once again that our best way to victory is by simply flooding the Table with obsec. Infantry and more or less ignore your enemy completely and play not against him, but around him.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I've played in a local Tournament this weekend and i have to say it's kinnda weird that Guard is outgunned by every other Faction at this point. Even by Orcs.

But i noticed once again that our best way to victory is by simply flooding the Table with obsec. Infantry and more or less ignore your enemy completely and play not against him, but around him.

yeah that’s pretty lame.

[jarms48]

I've played in a local Tournament this weekend and i have to say it's kinnda weird that Guard is outgunned by every other Faction at this point. Even by Orcs.

But i noticed once again that our best way to victory is by simply flooding the Table with obsec. Infantry and more or less ignore your enemy completely and play not against him, but around him.

 

Yeah, I was downvoted on Reddit for suggesting free HWT in infantry squads are a trap. My point being you're losing obsec bodies. HWT infantry squad is 9 models with 10 wounds, compared to 10 models with 10 wounds. If you took 18 infantry squads with 18 HWT you just lost 18 obsec bodies. That's almost an extra 2 infantry squads. 

 

Those free HWT won't help you outshoot 9th edition armies. So you're just crippling your ability to take and deny primaries. 

[Emperor Ming]

I can see your point on the heavy weapon team trap

 

In that case are you not just better off taking conscripts (cadian ofc) 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I've played in a local Tournament this weekend and i have to say it's kinnda weird that Guard is outgunned by every other Faction at this point. Even by Orcs.

But i noticed once again that our best way to victory is by simply flooding the Table with obsec. Infantry and more or less ignore your enemy completely and play not against him, but around him.

Yeah, I was downvoted on Reddit for suggesting free HWT in infantry squads are a trap. My point being you're losing obsec bodies. HWT infantry squad is 9 models with 10 wounds, compared to 10 models with 10 wounds. If you took 18 infantry squads with 18 HWT you just lost 18 obsec bodies. That's almost an extra 2 infantry squads.

 

Those free HWT won't help you outshoot 9th edition armies. So you're just crippling your ability to take and deny primaries.

pretty sure HWT counts as 2 models…

The codex states they are two infantrymen, and there are physically 2 models there, and again the codex is very clear it’s a 10 man squad. Unless I’m missing something then there’s nothing about an HWT that makes you lose a body for any purposes.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jarms48]

Yes and no. Both have pros and cons.

 

Conscripts have the most bodies for points you can get and require less orders.

 

Infantry Squads do get all the other free wargear, are more resistant to morale, force the enemy to waste shooting due to being split across more units, and the fact that they're more units means you can go for more primaries or secondaries with them. 

 

 

 

pretty sure HWT counts as 2 models…

 

Only for transport capacity. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by jarms48

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Yes and no. Both have pros and cons.

 

Conscripts have the most bodies for points you can get and require less orders.

 

Infantry Squads do get all the other free wargear, are more resistant to morale, force the enemy to waste shooting due to being split across more units, and the fact that they're more units means you can go for more primaries or secondaries with them.

 

 

 

 

pretty sure HWT counts as 2 models…

Only for transport capacity.

source?

[jarms48]

 

source?

 

 

This model can transport 12 ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY models. Each Heavy Weapons Team or Veteran Heavy Weapons Team takes the space of two other models

 

This is the only mention of HWT counting as 2 models. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

source?

 

This model can transport 12 ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY models. Each Heavy Weapons Team or Veteran Heavy Weapons Team takes the space of two other models

 

This is the only mention of HWT counting as 2 models.

and what mentions are there of HWTs counting as only 1 model?

 

I’m not asking for a source about the transport, I’m asking for a source that’s the only time they count as 2 models.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jarms48]

The fact that it literally is one model. There’s no rules or abilities claiming they count as 2 and shouldn’t be assumed as such.

 

HWS:

This unit contains 3 Heavy Weapons Teams. Each model is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades.

 

It is 3 models.

Edited June 1, 2022 by jarms48

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The fact that it literally is one model. There’s no rules or abilities claiming they count as 2 and shouldn’t be assumed as such.

 

HWS:

This unit contains 3 Heavy Weapons Teams. Each model is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades.

 

It is 3 models.

it’s one base, with literally 2 infantry models on it.

Yes each model of the team has a lasgun and frag grenade. Nothing in that says the unit is only 3 models.

 

And if it’s not necessarily RAW, it’s clearly RAI. I view the transport clarification simply to prevent people from saying it’s only one model and shoving an extra character in to a transport they shouldn’t fit in.

 

And if they are only 1 model, then you should be able to have another infantryman in the squad since an infantry squad consists of 9 models and a sargeant giving you a unit with 11 wounds.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jarms48]

Literally says “this unit contains 3 HWT’s. Each model.”

 

That’s not how the rules work. Look at the Sister Triumph of Saint Katherine it has multiple miniatures on it. Also a single model.

 

Where are you getting this from when it’s clearly not in the rules?

 

You want to say swarm units are multiple models per base too?

Edited June 1, 2022 by jarms48

[domsto]

Yeah, I was downvoted on Reddit for suggesting free HWT in infantry squads are a trap. My point being you're losing obsec bodies. HWT infantry squad is 9 models with 10 wounds, compared to 10 models with 10 wounds. If you took 18 infantry squads with 18 HWT you just lost 18 obsec bodies. That's almost an extra 2 infantry squads.

 

Those free HWT won't help you outshoot 9th edition armies. So you're just crippling your ability to take and deny primaries.

You are absolutely right about the HWTs. Out of all my 12 Lascannons maybe 3 hit and made some sort of Damage.

With Hammer of the Emperor you are better off with a single Lasgun dude than a HWT in the Squad, as weight of fire is way more important for Guard now.

Also the HWT base can and will interfere with your movement as the base is pretty big compared to the 25mm base of a regular Guardsmen.