Guard has lost its appeal

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Literally says “this unit contains 3 HWT’s. Each model.”

 

That’s not how the rules work. Look at the Sister Triumph of Saint Katherine it has multiple miniatures on it.

 

Where are you getting this from when it’s clearly not in the rules?

 

You want to say swarm units are multiple models per base too?

like I said if it’s not RAW, it’s clearly RAI.

How does it make sense that upgrading to a HWT loses a model? Especially considering this ‘one’ model has 2 wounds for absolutely no apparent reason.

 

Idk :cuss about sisters or how that model works, but it would definitely be hard for all those sisters to fight while carrying a body…

[jarms48]

It’s been like that since 5th edition. Prior to that it was clearly stated it was 2 seperate Guardsmen. Now it’s not. It’s a single datasheet, a single base, a single model.

 

You might disagree, but that’s what GW did.

[duz_]

The rest of the debate over HWT belongs in its own thread in the OR.

 

Any further discussion in here will be purged.

[OldWherewolf]

You are absolutely right about the HWTs. Out of all my 12 Lascannons maybe 3 hit and made some sort of Damage.

With Hammer of the Emperor you are better off with a single Lasgun dude than a HWT in the Squad, as weight of fire is way more important for Guard now.

Also the HWT base can and will interfere with your movement as the base is pretty big compared to the 25mm base of a regular Guardsmen.

Depends on what you're looking for.  The HWT does limit your movement, but it also can limit enemy movement with a single model as well.  That's a 4.5" zone blocked by a single model.

 

It does feel like lascannons are a trap.  However, AoW40K did an interview with a guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6R0EtMu7Wk) who uses mortars everywhere, 8 in infantry squads and 6 more in HWTs.  This allows the infantry to stay hidden but still contribute with 14d6 indirect shots, usually re-rolling 1s to hit, and potentially re-rolling all hits.

[jarms48]

Scions getting hammer is pretty awesome. Definitely worth testing.

[Emperor Ming]

I was thinking that Jarms, but my current scion list has two batts, and since there's no way to translate that into a brigade, that's very worrying

What the heck does a scion list look like now?

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

34 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

I was thinking that Jarms, but my current scion list has two batts, and since there's no way to translate that into a brigade, that's very worrying

What the heck does a scion list look like now?

 

that's an easy answer, a scion list now looks like what it always should have. kasrkin.

[Schlitzaf]

On 6/1/2022 at 1:06 PM, Brainpsyk said:

 

Depends on what you're looking for.  The HWT does limit your movement, but it also can limit enemy movement with a single model as well.  That's a 4.5" zone blocked by a single model.

 

It does feel like lascannons are a trap.  However, AoW40K did an interview with a guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6R0EtMu7Wk) who uses mortars everywhere, 8 in infantry squads and 6 more in HWTs.  This allows the infantry to stay hidden but still contribute with 14d6 indirect shots, usually re-rolling 1s to hit, and potentially re-rolling all hits.

And this is something worth iterating:

What people miss with “Free” Upgrades. The most “expensive” free Upgrades aren’t always the best. Lascannon here in IG Infantry Platoon are a good example of exactly this. You want higher rate of fire or whatever (missile launchers are nice, as well are mortars or heavy bolters). Not the “most” expensive. Power Fists vs Power Swords be another relavent here. So on and so forth. 

[jarms48]

9 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

I was thinking that Jarms, but my current scion list has two batts, and since there's no way to translate that into a brigade, that's very worrying

What the heck does a scion list look like now?

Well, I’m a crazy person so I just took the bullet and start on 0CP with no relics and WLT. 
 

My list is:

- 18 squads of scions with 10 models. Free plasma pistol and power sword on Tempestor. Free vox.

- 3 Tempestor Primes. Free command rod and power sword.

- 3 Lord Commissars. They’re just HQ tax. Free power sword.

- 3 MT Command Squads: Free vox, medi-pack, and platoon standard. 
 

That’s 1965 points. Intending to just use hotshots to kill everything. 

[Emperor Ming]

Crazy Indeed!

[Diagramdude]

I would consider folding one or two those batts down to a patrol, add in some taurox primes or Valkyries for maneuvering. Armor of contempt is still really good on 3+ save vehicles.

and since you’re running so much hotshot infantry, use the extra CP for laurels of command. since the orders blossom out and one order then issues that same order to many units, your officer can keep rolling 4+ for laurels for each unit he’s within 6”. That gives you a lot of chances for double ordering squads if you’re clumped around it. You’ll definitely want FRFSRF every time, but scions can really put the hurt on vehicles and monsters with the full reroll wound order in addition.

[WarriorFish]

The line between madness and genius can be thin...

[jarms48]

15 hours ago, Diagramdude said:

I would consider folding one or two those batts down to a patrol, add in some taurox primes or Valkyries for maneuvering. Armor of contempt is still really good on 3+ save vehicles.

and since you’re running so much hotshot infantry, use the extra CP for laurels of command. since the orders blossom out and one order then issues that same order to many units, your officer can keep rolling 4+ for laurels for each unit he’s within 6”. That gives you a lot of chances for double ordering squads if you’re clumped around it. You’ll definitely want FRFSRF every time, but scions can really put the hurt on vehicles and monsters with the full reroll wound order in addition.

Nah, not a fan of vehicles. The idea of infantry only is to make enemy AT useless. It also gives me more obsec bodies to choke their primaries and maximise their own. 
 

Infantry are also faster than vehicles. Can easily move through terrain and have a minimum 14 inch move with MMM. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 minutes ago, jarms48 said:

Nah, not a fan of vehicles. The idea of infantry only is to make enemy AT useless. It also gives me more obsec bodies to choke their primaries and maximise their own. 
 

Infantry are also faster than vehicles. Can easily move through terrain and have a minimum 14 inch move with MMM. 

Our infantry also dies much easier than our vehicles do.

[Diagramdude]

The idea of the infantry only is to bring more bodies than the enemy has shots. This is viable with 300+ t3 bodies not 180. Pure scions seems like a shooting list to me rather than an objective choking list. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 hours ago, Diagramdude said:

The idea of the infantry only is to bring more bodies than the enemy has shots. This is viable with 300+ t3 bodies not 180. Pure scions seems like a shooting list to me rather than an objective choking list. 

That’s such lame and boring tactic imo.

I like winning, but winning simply because the opponent couldn’t mathematically kill enough if my guys just seems so unfulfilling.

 

sure if there was someone making a living off of tournament winnings I’d get it using a tactic like that.

id rather lose but use actual generalship than simply rush 300 bodies on to objectives.

edit
in a 2000pt game you can take 25 infantry squads for 250 dudes, and still have plenty of points for 3 tanks, and your HQs, and an elite choice or two, so a combined infantry/armored list still seems like you can pretty easily overwhelm your opponent's ability to kill.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jarms48]

On 6/27/2022 at 8:43 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Our infantry also dies much easier than our vehicles do.

 

Yeah, but infantry can also do secondaries, move through buildings, interact with terrain better, and scions can now put out far more damage than vehicles.

 

The only negative is durability, and that's debatable. Cause dedicated AT weapons will still kill vehicles without much effort and you've basically negated that by going all infantry.

[Emperor Ming]

and don't get me started on the reducing stat line, 6 wounds to make a regular russ bs5

Infantry don't have to put up with that kind of bull....

Then being tagged in combat

and I'm guessing in the new dex, tank commanders and company commanders will get the old, one per detachment rule, then what do we do, take ogryns and call it a day?

[jarms48]

Apparently Russes are getting +1 to Hit and shoot out of engagement range on turret weapons. Though we will lose grinding advance.

[Emperor Ming]

Russ's will be dead if the turrets loose double shoot

Introducing the Rogal Dorn citizen, it can fire 10 times and is only 100pts

Its always a good day to buy

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Russ's will be dead if the turrets loose double shoot

Introducing the Rogal Dorn citizen, it can fire 10 times and is only 100pts

Its always a good day to buy

 

I have no doubt the new codex will have a less desirable Russ, in order to make the dorn more desirable to sell those kits.

[Schlitzaf]

31 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Russ's will be dead if the turrets loose double shoot

Introducing the Rogal Dorn citizen, it can fire 10 times and is only 100pts

Its always a good day to buy

 

2d6 > 7 > 3.5 vs 3.5 > 2.25. 

Its actually far less bad than it appears to be frank. Also a tank gers bracketed any other edition it be dead or useless.

[OldWherewolf]

If GW fixes the number of shots from the LRBT turret, then losing the double-shoot will be fine.  If they flat drop Grinding Advance and give the LRBT a flat 4 shots for 150 points, then the LRBT is going in the garbage.

[The Pounder]

Yeah I’m on board with that. A fixed number of shots would definitely make them less swingy.

[jarms48]

8 hours ago, Brainpsyk said:

If GW fixes the number of shots from the LRBT turret, then losing the double-shoot will be fine.  If they flat drop Grinding Advance and give the LRBT a flat 4 shots for 150 points, then the LRBT is going in the garbage.

This could be likely, seeing as the CSM Vindicator is D3+3 shots. So Russes could get this too.