Anti-Tank think tank

[CCE1981]

What is our best anti-tank nowadays? I am putting together lists from various Supplements. I am trying to get out of my comfort zone and come up with different lists from what I would normally make.

[MegaVolt87]

Tell us what you are already using as AT so we aren't making suggestions you already use. 

[CCE1981]

Born Heroes, Whirlwind of Rage Space Wolf Successors Bladeguard, Eradicators, Dual twin-lascanon Relic Contemptor Dreadnoughts, ThunderHammer Vanguard Vets.

[BloodyB]

Lascannon/Missile launcher Venerable dreads work fine for small games. Thunder hammers always pull through if you apply enough of them.

 

I find one of the problems in my local meta is the preponderance of light and heavy armour in the same list. I frequently have to deal with Necron Triarch Stalkers and Obelisks in the same battle, or Russ/Baneblade and Sentinels. For me, I try to take a decent amount of D3 weapons to deal with the lighter stuff, such as Dakka Press or Lasfusil Eliminators, as well as the previously mentioned Thunder Hammers alongshore some good Melta. As a BA player, taking an assault squad with melta, hammer and eviscerator is a good way to handle dreadnought equivalent units without breaking the bank.

 

For heavier tank killing, Predator Annihilators and/or Vindicators can do some good work. Sure, the latter is a swingy beast, but the chassis is durable enough and cheap enough that it usually gets a couple of shots off.

 

My next big worry in terms of tanks are the T'au, the sheer lethality of their shooting leaves me thinking that staying at range is too dangerous, so I am investing in Inferno pistol/Hammer Vanguard Vets. I might drop the pistol, but they seem to be a good investment for dealing with the Stormsurge I saw my friend buying last week...

[phandaal]

For dealing with Tau, units that can pop out from behind LoS-blocking terrain or deep strike and nuke will be key. MM Attack Bikes, Plasmaceptors, Drop Pod Devastators come to mind.

[Karhedron]

Multimelta Attack Bikes are my go-to unit for anti-armour duty. They are reasonably tough and they are fast enough to bring their weapons in range of the target.

 

Eradicators are decent. Point-for-point they have more firepower than Attack Bikes but they are slower. Putting them in Reserve can work well.

 

Plasma Inceptors are good but have a couple of caveats. You really want to overcharge if taking on tanks and that means you need a Captain nearby to minimise overheats, otherwise you risk losing half your squad every time you shoot them. Also, they are badly affected by any units with the -1 Damage rule (Dreadnoughts, Deathguard, Eldar Wraith constructs),

 

Multimelta Devastators in Drop Pod. Very effective, particularly if you put a cheap character like a Lt in as well for rerolls. Just beware that a canny opponent my screen his valuable units to keep these guys from dropping melta range.

[NKirkham24]

I've used a Vindicator Laser Destroyer in may last couple of games and that has been brilliant. One-shotted a PBC last time out. 

 

I imagine it would be better in an Iron Hands list but it has really good consistent damage output if you can protect it long enough. 

[MegaVolt87]

I've used a Vindicator Laser Destroyer in may last couple of games and that has been brilliant. One-shotted a PBC last time out. 

 

I imagine it would be better in an Iron Hands list but it has really good consistent damage output if you can protect it long enough. 

 

Yeah people asleep on the vindi laser destroyer for sure. Its on my shopping list. Just waiting to see if my IW's will be using the CSM rules or I run them as loyalists rules. Deredeo volkite falconete loadout also has my attention. 

[CCE1981]

Multi-Melta attack bikes might be a choice. Going to have to do a conversion…. Maybe go with Primarised Scimitars, just give the rider a twin bolter/assault bolt rifle.

 

How are Suppressors looking? 9x Autocannon shots at 100 pts seems ok against light vehicles.

[Tokugawa]

Multi-Melta attack bikes might be a choice. Going to have to do a conversion…. Maybe go with Primarised Scimitars, just give the rider a twin bolter/assault bolt rifle.

 

How are Suppressors looking? 9x Autocannon shots at 100 pts seems ok against light vehicles.

How light a light vehicle is? -1d could be on anywhere you unexpected. They even can't kill a 35pts killakan on average in a salvo.

[Tokugawa]

For dealing with Tau, units that can pop out from behind LoS-blocking terrain or deep strike and nuke will be key. MM Attack Bikes, Plasmaceptors, Drop Pod Devastators come to mind.

Yeah, melta especially Multi-melta is the way.

 

To counter tanks with our own long-range tanks is not optimal, since marine tanks usuallly don't have the best profile. When your tanks have los to shoot their tanks, their tanks have los to shoot your tanks, too.

[Lord_Ikka]

I like heavy melta-rifle Eradicators. I play Ultramarines, so having a Chaplain w/Focus litany and using the Squad Doctrines strat (moving a squad to Tac doctrine) means that they move and shoot without penalties most of the time. The extra damage is good, giving me a minimum of 3 damage per hit, minimum of 5 if within 12 inches. Being infantry, they're able to hide/get cover fairly easily if needed. 

[Karhedron]

How are Suppressors looking? 9x Autocannon shots at 100 pts seems ok against light vehicles.

They are cheap and provide decent weight of fire but it is not heavy enough for serious anti-tank work IMHO as S7 Ap-1 2D is just a bit anaemic. Against a Rhino-equivalent you are looking at just 2-4 Wounds on average. Against anything with the -1 Damage rule that goes down to 1-2 Wounds average.

 

They have range and mobility and may chip off some wounds here and there but I would not take them as my primary source of anti-tank.

[Lord_Ikka]

 

How are Suppressors looking? 9x Autocannon shots at 100 pts seems ok against light vehicles.

They are cheap and provide decent weight of fire but it is not heavy enough for serious anti-tank work IMHO as S7 Ap-1 2D is just a bit anaemic. Against a Rhino-equivalent you are looking at just 2-4 Wounds on average. Against anything with the -1 Damage rule that goes down to 1-2 Wounds average.

 

They have range and mobility and may chip off some wounds here and there but I would not take them as my primary source of anti-tank.

 

They are more useful as a backfield unit that softens up elite infantry for other units to then charge into, while holding objectives. They're fast enough to get out of trouble, but as Karhedron says, they don't have the damage to punch through mainline armor. They can give light armor (T6, less than 9 Wounds) some good chip damage, though they won't generally be able to finish off even those units in one turn.

[Karhedron]

Suppressors are good against some of the lighter units that are making a splash in the meta at the moment such as Drukhari skimmers. A 3-man squad will put around 4 Wounds on a Venom and 5-6 on a Raider which is a pretty good going.

[CCE1981]

Do you think that a Centurian Assault Squad can do some anti-tank work?  I think that in a few different Supplements they can be pretty good.  White Scars look great for speed and being hard hitting, Salamanders can have an escort to get them there.

[Karhedron]

Do you think that a Centurian Assault Squad can do some anti-tank work?  I think that in a few different Supplements they can be pretty good.  White Scars look great for speed and being hard hitting, Salamanders can have an escort to get them there.

Their stats are quite good for this but the issue is delivery. They are not fast and actually have to reach melee to get the job done. For 165 points they will do on average 10 wounds to a T8 target with no Invulnerable save but they slow, can only ride in expensive transports and are not CORE which makes them hard to buff.

 

For an extra 15 points, 3 MM Attack bikes offer similar levels of durability, are fast and have CORE. At >12" they will average 7 wounds to a T8 target or 11 wounds within 12" and no need to actually get into melee.

 

Personally I would take the Attack Bikes every single time, regardless of what Chapter-specific buffs may be in place.

[TheNewman]

That's true as far as it goes, but Assault Centurions do have the ability to hose light infantry off the table and then crush a hard target in melee in a way that bikes can't match. ...which is not a recommendation, it makes them a lot harder to place from reserves than their point value in Aggressors and Eliminators.

 

 

How are Suppressors looking? 9x Autocannon shots at 100 pts seems ok against light vehicles.

They are cheap and provide decent weight of fire but it is not heavy enough for serious anti-tank work IMHO as S7 Ap-1 2D is just a bit anaemic. Against a Rhino-equivalent you are looking at just 2-4 Wounds on average. Against anything with the -1 Damage rule that goes down to 1-2 Wounds average.

 

They have range and mobility and may chip off some wounds here and there but I would not take them as my primary source of anti-tank.

I get a chuckle out of that because dakka-Redemptors and Gladiator Reapers are my most reliable anti-tank by a huge margin. The last game I played my two Redemptors did more damage to tanks at range individually than my MM attack bikes, Eradicators, and Lascannon/Missile Venerable Dread put together. Edited February 4, 2022 by TheNewman

[CCE1981]

Are the Gladiators any good? They seem expensive compared to other non-Marine units.

[Karhedron]

Are the Gladiators any good? They seem expensive compared to other non-Marine units.

They are expensive although the latest Chapter Approved has given them a small points reduction (too small in my oppinion). The Lancer is extremely underpowered IMHO as it basically gets 2 slightly improved lascannon shots.

 

The Valiant is more promising as it gets 8 tank-busting shots per turn, albeit at short range. It actually outperforms 3 MM attack bikes in terms of firepower (which I tend to use as a benchmark for comparison). It is tougher than the Attack Bikes but is not quite as fast and is also one big target. A powerful shot from something like a Railgun will almost kill a Gladiator but wil only kill one attack bike.

 

Still, of all the anti-tank vehicles Marines can take, the Valiant is probably he best of an underwhelming bunch.

[CCE1981]

Multimelta Attack Bikes are my go-to unit for anti-armour duty. They are reasonably tough and they are fast enough to bring their weapons in range of the target.

 

Eradicators are decent. Point-for-point they have more firepower than Attack Bikes but they are slower. Putting them in Reserve can work well.

 

Plasma Inceptors are good but have a couple of caveats. You really want to overcharge if taking on tanks and that means you need a Captain nearby to minimise overheats, otherwise you risk losing half your squad every time you shoot them. Also, they are badly affected by any units with the -1 Damage rule (Dreadnoughts, Deathguard, Eldar Wraith constructs),

 

Multimelta Devastators in Drop Pod. Very effective, particularly if you put a cheap character like a Lt in as well for rerolls. Just beware that a canny opponent my screen his valuable units to keep these guys from dropping melta range.

How many Multi-Melta Attack Bikes do you generally use?

[XeonDragon]

Melta is awesome.

 

A squad of Melta devastators in a drop pod accompanied by either some company veterans or sternguard veterans with melta guns makes for a great alpha-strike unit or even a great beta-strike unit. Combine that with an attack bike squad with MM and some eradicators (Raven Guard shenanigans are great with them) then you can reliably bring 3 melta units to bear early in the game.

 

Otherwise, strong melee units make for great anti-tank. Assault terminators with thunder hammers, VGVs with thunder hammers, chainfists on terminators are good. Even with -1 damage being every more prevalent, massed power fists can still do good work. Melta shots + power fists to finish off is reliable. 

 

Otherwise, massed non-overcharged plasma is also good as the -1 damage doesn't matter as much. I've found company veterans with combi-plasma and storm shields are good, as the 4++ means they hang around long enough to do some good work. Assault hellblasters can be good thanks to the shear weight of shots, but are fragile for the points. Plasma inceptors are fun and fast.

 

Right now, melta is king. Mobility is good, so attack bikes are good. However, drop pods are great insurance against alpha-stikes and can also do an alpha strike, and eradicators are tanky and can use transhuman. So in my experience, a mixture of melta units and plan on how to use them is good :)

[Karhedron]

How many Multi-Melta Attack Bikes do you generally use?

I find a squad of 3 at 1500 points is OK. A couple of caveats here. I run Blood Angels so I have a Jump Sanguinary Priest to keep up with them so I need the squad to stay alive for healing and combat resurrection. Only BAs and DAs have an Apothecary who can keep up with bikes so for other Chapters, I would probably go with 2x2-man squads.

 

I then back this up with some massed plasma from Inceptors and a few melee units with Fists/Hammers that can put in anti-vehicle work at a pinch.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

It depends on what you want to invest in.

 

In my opinion the Multi-Melta ATV is point for point one of the best anti-tank units in the game. It outshines attack bikes by a large margin. 60 points vs 85 4 wounds vs 8 is a big difference. Both are very fast, easy to hide, but one has much more survivability than the other.

 

While long fangs are decent Hellblasters are better all around. Either heavy for the base S8 D2 or S9 D3 overcharge or the assault variant for assault 3 to take on light vehicles. They maintain speed with being able to advance and shoot or remain stationary and still have a 24" threat range. It boils down to what you are willing to give up to make room for these units.

 

The last option outside of Forge world that I would suggest is Macro Plasma redemptor dreads.

[BloodyB]

It depends on what you want to invest in.

In my opinion the Multi-Melta ATV is point for point one of the best anti-tank units in the game. It outshines attack bikes by a large margin. 60 points vs 85 4 wounds vs 8 is a big difference. Both are very fast, easy to hide, but one has much more survivability than the other.

While long fangs are decent Hellblasters are better all around. Either heavy for the base S8 D2 or S9 D3 overcharge or the assault variant for assault 3 to take on light vehicles. They maintain speed with being able to advance and shoot or remain stationary and still have a 24" threat range. It boils down to what you are willing to give up to make room for these units.

The last option outside of Forge world that I would suggest is Macro Plasma redemptor dreads.

I agree in regards to the points efficiency of the ATV, but then you have to make the ATV look a little less derpy. They are good, but egads, Cawl was a bit deep in the motor oil mojitos when he drew up the blueprints for them.

 

An alternative I like using are various Landspeeders. A mix of double multimeltas and missiles launcher/multimelta gives a decent threat at all ranges and their incredible mobility let's them flit into and out engagement range and LoS with impunity. They are very brittle for a vehicle, and 95 pts for a tornado with dual melta, or a 125 for melta typhoon isn't a small amount, the latter especially can do some good damage to several targets at once. I don't know if they are a competitive choice, but they can be really useful for larger games.