40k Firstborn, 30k retcon?

[Valkyrion]

Could you imagine a situation where GW mothball normal marines from 40k, but keeps the range alive by retconning the mini range in to 30k?

 

Some things could be made Legion specific, for example it's not too difficult a leap to imagine a forward thinking Salamanders Forge Lord to fit flame cannons to his personal Land Raider, or the Iron Warriors outfitting their Boxnaughts with wall destroying weaponry.

 

Other things are more difficult, but not impossible - Centurion suits could be Imperial only, super rare experimental exo suits that only fits the new fangled MKVII armour being rapidly fired from the forges,  complete with imperial eagle to show their loyalist allegiance. 

 

Others might just go away quietly, like Thunderfire Cannons, maybe even the current 40k terminator models that are looking dumpier and frailer with every new release that overtakes them. 

 

All it takes is a snippet in a campaign book or novel, a reboxing and, of course, a 30k price hike.

 

It wouldn't help existing 40k marine players, but it could be a sort of range reset without abandoning what made them famous in the first place.

 

Could you see GW doing something like that?

[Grotsmasha]

Short term, no. Once all us "old fogies" have exited the hobby and the young'uns who always known Primaris are all that is left. Yes, yes I can see them extinguishing the First-born line.

 

I don't think they'll retcon / force them onto 30k though, they'll just be gone and Legends only if they keep that up.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

NO I cannot.. nor would I want to imagine something so ridiculous. I'm really not understanding this obsession with GW dropping legacy marines from 40k.

[Pacific81]

I can't see such a move being popular. People are already free to use the Primaris miniatures and convert them for use in 30k, and in fact I think a lot of people do this anyway. In some ways it is just replacing the true-scaling of miniatures which has been going on for 15 years or more. 

 

As for bringing in some of the new designs, I also think a lot of the appeal of 30k is the distinct look from the 40k range. If you start introducing modern 40k designs then that distinction is removed. Especially if you have a loyalist legion in matching 40k colours.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I think it's far more likely that firstborn kits being discontinued in 40k will coincide with the release of equivalent plastic kits in 30k so they aren't competing with themselves for ostensibly the same unit (e.g the 40k predator kit being discontinued in the same timeframe a plastic 30k deimos predator is released), there's enough generic crossover that porting across exact units feel unceseccary - if anything they'll give 30k (vehicle) kits 40k rules so there's double the pool of potential purchasers.

[Noserenda]

Ech, it feels like so much would be discontinued or sell so badly its unlikely to be worth repackaging. 

I _could_ see Age of Darkness being rebranded AgeS of Darkness as a broader "historical 40k" a few years from now once theyve had a bit of drop off after the inevitable Scouring stuff doing another war between M31-40, Badab if they are feeling cheap, (As they already have loads for that) something like the Age of Apostasy  if a bit more ambitious perhaps.

[MARK0SIAN]

As has been said, a big part of the appeal of 30k is the visual distinctiveness compared to 40K. People will pay a significant amount more for a Deimos predator rather than just buying the standard plastic one because they like/value that distinctive look.

 

The other thing to remember is that the best way to make money from 30k is by getting new players into it who have to buy new armies. An awful lot of people will already have a 40K marine army ready to go, they’d have to spend very little to enter into 30k and that’s not ideal for GW.

[MegaVolt87]

Ech, it feels like so much would be discontinued or sell so badly its unlikely to be worth repackaging. 

 

I _could_ see Age of Darkness being rebranded AgeS of Darkness as a broader "historical 40k" a few years from now once theyve had a bit of drop off after the inevitable Scouring stuff doing another war between M31-40, Badab if they are feeling cheap, (As they already have loads for that) something like the Age of Apostasy  if a bit more ambitious perhaps.

 

This is more likely, Scouring to 12th Black Crusade as apart of specialist games. 40k units don't need to be unceremoniously dumped into HH where they don't have a place. 

[Marshal Rohr]

This is going to be what they do in the next few iterations of codex space marines. All old plastic kits for 40K marines go to heresy and 40K becomes pure Primaris.

[MegaVolt87]

This is going to be what they do in the next few iterations of codex space marines. All old plastic kits for 40K marines go to heresy and 40K becomes pure Primaris.

 

That's wasteful of an entire span of 40k that could be a specialist game requiring completely new armies. The 40k firstborn units all were developed technologically lore wise scouring onwards as well. GW would make more money with a secondary post HH spin off than dumping them into HH. They can also sell us old new stuff like OG Calgar, Mephy re-sculpts etc. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by MegaVolt87

[armarnis]

Why are people so keen to remove Firstborn from 40k? Whats your gain? Also, is it worth to lose an opponent to Play with for what you gain? Edited February 16, 2022 by armarnis

[Grotsmasha]

Why are people so keen to remove Firstborn from 40k? Whats your gain? Also, is it worth to lose an opponent to Play with for what you gain?

 

It's not so much we're "keen" to see them gone (personally I don't want the First-born range to go), but speculating on a when / how.

[Astartes Consul]

Short answer, no.

 

Longer answer, no, but as other have said, folding in the majority of the existing 40k Firstborn range into some kind of 'Historical' Specialist Games system might be what happens. Assuming all the current Firstborn characters are upgraded to Primaris or retired and kits likes the Sternguard and Vanguard are phased out, there is a slightly more streamlined range of plastics that could continue on. Maybe a tie in to the heavily hinted at Scouring series Black Library are planning?

 

I've no idea how well the Firstborn range still sells. My FLGS always has a fully stocked shelf of the stuff but no idea if that is because it is popular or because it doesn't sell and just sits there.

[Pacific81]

We all know that there was a very valid possibility (and I would bet my mortgage that it was seriously considered) that 'Pramaris' and 'First Born' were never going to be a thing. An alternative development would have been for GW to simply replace the old Space Marine range with a new one, with changes of scale that had been happening in 40k space for 15-20 years or more (and for which marines were now looking distinctly out of step). Making the most of the plastic kit improvements etc.

 

But, having a new 'entity' in 40k served a number of purposes - first, it forced everyone to buy new marines due to the new army list entries, something that some grognards like me would not do if they had just replaced the miniatures. In moving forward the timeline, a very bold move by GW that again many said was overdue, it allowed them to add new units, bring in new characters (re-incarnating the primarchs for instance) and I should imagine must have done wonders for sales. Most if not all 40k players have a marine army, and this will have prompted all of them to go out and buy a new one, so it was a very savvy move in that respect. 

 

The reason I am writing about this is that I don't think most of these factors are present for 30k. Making that decision to make 'true scale' marines as a new entity (in Primaris), rather than just making them a replacement kit, means that they cannot be inserted into 30k lore without the most egregious of ret-cons. Off the top of my head, some sort of time travel bull:cuss where Cawl goes back to warn the Emperor. I can imagine what response that would have from the community. 

 

What you might have, is instead a crawl towards more true-scale marine kits - larger marine releases which aren't explicitly Primaris, but make use of some of the larger marine sculpts and kits. We have seen this to an extent with things like the new Chaos Marine ranges, where the miniatures are larger than they used to be without explicitly being 'Primaris'. This would allow the current FW kits to remain on sale also. 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

This is going to be what they do in the next few iterations of codex space marines. All old plastic kits for 40K marines go to heresy and 40K becomes pure Primaris.

That's wasteful of an entire span of 40k that could be a specialist game requiring completely new armies. The 40k firstborn units all were developed technologically lore wise scouring onwards as well. GW would make more money with a secondary post HH spin off than dumping them into HH. They can also sell us old new stuff like OG Calgar, Mephy re-sculpts etc.

I didn’t say it was a good idea, just what they will be doing. Instead of Army Lists they are the ones who decided these datasheets are the way forward and when you break down every captain option into a datasheet it’s going to bloat the codex. They aren’t going to release a five hundred page space marine codex after the next two waves of Primaris drop.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I think the general consensus in this thread is there's plenty of gaming reasons to keep the legacy Space Marine product lines around. 

I respond to these threads all the time, my main point remains; GW is a business that wants to make a profit. Why would they stop offering a product they are making money on? 

Whether its HH, Badab War, or whatever other angle they narratively want to pursue, there's going to be people who want to collect Armies which fit in with that period. The game is not just about the competitive scene (which seems to be receiving more and more emphasis from the player base/community). Interestingly enough, there are quite a few "firstborn" units that hold a very competitive place (my personal favorite to see Devs in Drop Pod). 

Another good point I've seen in here (sorry for not going back to give you credit, you know who you are) is scale creep has been happening for quite sometime over the existence of 40k as a hobby/game. The scale creep alone IMO is not justifiable enough of a reason to make an argument that the old Marines have to be sacked. If anything.. GW will keep "firstborn" Marines and actually make them "true-scale" (new 30k MkVI, looking at you) so everyone buys them to replace the "squats." 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Bloody Legionnaire

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

This is going to be what they do in the next few iterations of codex space marines. All old plastic kits for 40K marines go to heresy and 40K becomes pure Primaris.

That's wasteful of an entire span of 40k that could be a specialist game requiring completely new armies. The 40k firstborn units all were developed technologically lore wise scouring onwards as well. GW would make more money with a secondary post HH spin off than dumping them into HH. They can also sell us old new stuff like OG Calgar, Mephy re-sculpts etc.

I didn’t say it was a good idea, just what they will be doing. Instead of Army Lists they are the ones who decided these datasheets are the way forward and when you break down every captain option into a datasheet it’s going to bloat the codex. They aren’t going to release a five hundred page space marine codex after the next two waves of Primaris drop.

 

 

You are wrong IMO. They will either be utilized in a specialist game or they will go straight to 40k legends as a holding basket. Same with the rest of the firstborn FW units, of which the demios predators are already in legends for 40k. Its a ridiculous claim they will be dumped into HH. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I mean where they go is irrelevant, they are leaving 40K and will be given some kind of GW’s standard ‘Don’t worry gang! You can still use your favorite old units in games you play in your imagination!’

 

Also if you don’t think you’ll see lore justifications for regular old marines to be used in the heresy in the next 18 months, you’re smoking the good stuff.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Marshal Rohr

[MegaVolt87]

I mean where they go is irrelevant, they are leaving 40K and will be given some kind of GW’s standard ‘Don’t worry gang! You can still use your favorite old units in games you play in your imagination!’

Also if you don’t think you’ll see lore justifications for regular old marines to be used in the heresy in the next 18 months, you’re smoking the good stuff.

You must be on better stuff if you think dumping 40k firstborn into HH will make GW more money for the effort of converting the rules over vs putting them in a seperate specialist game or leave them in legends at minimal cost in the 40k format.

[Noserenda]

I mean the justifications are pretty much all there at this point, most of the Legions are almost in their 40k forms by the scouring (Notable exceptions obviously) including power armour and a lot of toys. You could even push for most of the things "invented" later as they are still STC tech, its all pretty much plug & play in new ways rather than real technological innovation. I dont think they should to be clear (I actually think split Codex then Legends in like 11th ed) but they could, things like the razorback are hardly a quantum leap :P 

7th edition rules already exist for everything in the Oldmarine arsenal after all

[MegaVolt87]

Also consider dropping 40k firstborn into the scouring era as a spinoff specialist game would allow xenos to be added in a test bed setting that would possibly throw out the balance if added to the existing HH specialist game otherwise.

 

Not to mention many 40k firstborn players don't have an interest in the HH era, but an expanded scouring era onwards in the timeline is a different story due to an expanded set of belligerents. Dumping 40k firstborn wholesale into HH is a losing properstion to many, even if the barrier is lower, its still a limited era from their position and not interesting. Its bad business all round. Look at the old world development, they dumped old world into AoS- it was a disaster and old world by FW is fixing that mistake. Its quite obvious which approach with 40k firstborn will lay golden eggs vs grow a few small potatoes in comparison should they get the chop in 40k main.

[Doghouse]

I personally think that the new plastic ones could well be used more in 40k than 30k and a huge 30k release could be the thing that solidifies their position in 40k.

[tinpact]

I do think some of the replies are forgetting that there very much already are rules for and justifications for using most of the firstborn range in 30k

 

Also, GW loves pushing new models with new rules - if they end up redoing the Tactical/Terminator kits, I can see them coming with new rules.

 

As far as another 'historical' specialist game goes - in general, I like the idea of more 'themed' games (how I'd love a dedicated Legion Wars ruleset!). It'd have to be differentiated from just playing 7th again, of course, and wishful thinking though it may be, I think another large-scale system not based on an existing version is really attractive.