SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Moonreaper666]

 

Fists have already lost 'most of their marines' yet they can go after the Iron Warriors following the Siege? Interesting.

Angels are currently holding the walls.

 

Sons of Horus - Leadership is in shambles, essentially decapitated, with just pockets of warbands forming.

Death Guard - Gutted, lost their Primarch.

World Eaters - Shattered, insane.

Emperors Children - Shattered, insane, gone rogue.

Thousand Sons - Not even there for the Siege, they are gone.

Daemons - Still cant even hold onto reality, not even a viable force yet.

 

Word Bearers and Night Lords are not even a meaningful force, already falling into 'warbands'.

 

Look, I'm Chaos forever, but your reading is suspect.

This is a Siege so it's just throwing soldiers into a meatgrinder and that's why the numbers matter

 

Plus the Dis Irae has more Plot Armor than Sanginius. So if the Dis Irae attacks the Gate well bye bye Sang.

 

In the old Lore Magnus and his Legion did participate at attacking the Gate

 

Daemons are already manifesting inside the Palace keeping the Custodes occupied

 

Word Bearers did attack the Gate in Warhawk so they are still in the Siege

 

All the Traitors have to do is send Angron, Ka'Bandha, Magnus, Fulgrim and Dis Irae to curbstomp Sanginius

 

Dorn and his Legion is isolated at Bhab. Daemons are attacking them. They try to breakout they would be slaughtered by Legio Mortis, Undead Titans and Warmaster Titans.

 

Most of the Death Guard did not participate in the LionGate Spaceport. Vorx and Typhus still command them.

 

Millions of Traitors would be landing during Echoes alone. Millions more in the Final Siege Novel.

 

Strange that Skulltaker, Changeling and Shalaxi Hellbane are in the Siege. Guess each one is just to OP for the Loyalist to handle.

[Scribe]

 

Fists have already lost 'most of their marines' yet they can go after the Iron Warriors following the Siege? Interesting.

Angels are currently holding the walls.

 

Sons of Horus - Leadership is in shambles, essentially decapitated, with just pockets of warbands forming.

Death Guard - Gutted, lost their Primarch.

World Eaters - Shattered, insane.

Emperors Children - Shattered, insane, gone rogue.

Thousand Sons - Not even there for the Siege, they are gone.

Daemons - Still cant even hold onto reality, not even a viable force yet.

 

Word Bearers and Night Lords are not even a meaningful force, already falling into 'warbands'.

 

Look, I'm Chaos forever, but your reading is suspect.

This is a Siege so it's just throwing soldiers into a meatgrinder and that's why the numbers matter

 

Plus the Dis Irae has more Plot Armor than Sanginius. So if the Dis Irae attacks the Gate well bye bye Sang.

 

In the old Lore Magnus and his Legion did participate at attacking the Gate

 

Daemons are already manifesting inside the Palace keeping the Custodes occupied

 

Word Bearers did attack the Gate in Warhawk so they are still in the Siege

 

All the Traitors have to do is send Angron, Ka'Bandha, Magnus, Fulgrim and Dis Irae to curbstomp Sanginius

 

Dorn and his Legion is isolated at Bhab. Daemons are attacking them. They try to breakout they would be slaughtered by Legio Mortis, Undead Titans and Warmaster Titans.

 

Most of the Death Guard did not participate in the LionGate Spaceport. Vorx and Typhus still command them.

 

Millions of Traitors would be landing during Echoes alone. Millions more in the Final Siege Novel.

 

Strange that Skulltaker, Changeling and Shalaxi Hellbane are in the Siege. Guess each one is just to OP for the Loyalist to handle.

 

 

You keep talking about Plot Armour for Dis Irae, as if its at all relevant in contrast to the Plot Armour for Sanguinius? Hello? Sanguinius WILL be there to fight Horus, on his ship, and there is literally NOTHING that will prevent that from happening, even if he has to throw Dies Irae into the warp personally.

 

Magus doesnt care about the gate. He doesnt care about the Siege. The shorts have made this clear.

 

The Daemons manifesting are weak, ineffectual, as the wards continue to function just enough. The Daemons needed the power of a primarch (Mortarion) and that level of corruption to really start making an impact, and the Death Guard lost that battle, hard.

 

"All the Traitors have to do is send Angron, Ka'Bandha, Magnus, Fulgrim and Dis Irae to curbstomp Sanginius."

 

Literally false. Sanguinius would beat every single one, at the same time, because Sanguinius faces Horus. There is exactly 0% chance that is changed, especially by ADB.

 

As always your head cannon is fine, but dont mistake it for the reality as presented by the text and the history of the setting.

[Sonoftheforest]

Plus its not like Dies Irae a titan, daemonic or not, can't be taken out and repaired/healed at a later date.

[Scribe]

Plus its not like Dies Irae a titan, daemonic or not, can't be taken out and repaired/healed at a later date.

 

And even then, its a titan. Are we going to pretend its as central to the setting, not just 30K, not just the Siege, but 40K as well, the entire mythology of Imperium, as Sanguinius?

 

Its an absolutely absurd view.

 

Sangunius matters.

[Noserenda]

I see it now, The mighty Emperor titan, tripping over a pipeline and spending the rest of the siege clutching a knee and howling :D

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Plus its not like Dies Irae a titan, daemonic or not, can't be taken out and repaired/healed at a later date.

And even then, its a titan. Are we going to pretend its as central to the setting, not just 30K, not just the Siege, but 40K as well, the entire mythology of Imperium, as Sanguinius?

 

Its an absolutely absurd view.

 

Sangunius matters.

Problem being that Dis Irae survives the Siege only to die 10k years later. Sanginius can't fight it because the Traitor Titan has to survive the Siege.

 

There is no way Sanginius alone can hold the Gate. He needs serious reinforcements like ALL of the remaining Sisters of Silence, Malcador and his secret Army, plus countless Conscripts (Billions) to barely hold that damn Gate.

 

Two big groups of Loyalist are going to die keeping Dis Irae alone occupied for the rest of the Siege

 

A massive group of Loyalists has to keep Legio Mortis occupied. Another big group deals with the Warmaster Titans.

 

The bulk of the Death Guard is still alive being lead by Typhus and Vorx. More Loyalists have to be thrown at them just in Echoes alone, nevermind the Final Siege book.

 

Angron is going to attack the Gate head-on. I would call BS if Sanginius even last longer than a few minutes against him.

 

In the old Lore, Magnus unleashed a magical explosion very close to the Gate.

 

World Eaters are still mostly alive and are attacking. A lot of unfortunate Loyalists have to die keeping them from entering the Palace.

 

Millions of Traitor Guardsmen have landed in Mortis alone. Millions more in Warhawk. More millions landing during Echoes. Unless Keeler and Dorn throw every man, woman and child at the MILLIONS of Traitor Guardsmen they are going to take the Palace.

 

What do the Loyalists have by the start of Echoes? What can they afford to throw at all of the various Traitor elements still in the Siege throughout Echoes?

[Kelborn]

Perturabo beat Angron before

 

Sangi is one of the deadliest Primarchs

 

He can fly

 

Black rage mode => game over

 

Which would also add to his already beaten state of mind and his depressing mood to fall victim to what cursed his legion. (Not up to date on either siege or BA stuff so correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Ubiquitous1984]

We saw what happened to Sangunius in Fear to Tread when 500 of his sons were killed.  If an even worse tragedy was to take place* in the lead up to his appearance at the Eternity Gate, then plot armour will fly out of the window and all bets are off.

 

*feel free to speculate what could be even more impactful than 500 dead sons.  A personal plea from the Emperor?  

[grailkeeper]

How old is the lore about Magnus letting off an explosion?

[Scribe]

 

 

 

Plus its not like Dies Irae a titan, daemonic or not, can't be taken out and repaired/healed at a later date.

And even then, its a titan. Are we going to pretend its as central to the setting, not just 30K, not just the Siege, but 40K as well, the entire mythology of Imperium, as Sanguinius?

 

Its an absolutely absurd view.

 

Sangunius matters.

Problem being that Dis Irae survives the Siege only to die 10k years later. Sanginius can't fight it because the Traitor Titan has to survive the Siege.

 

There is no way Sanginius alone can hold the Gate. He needs serious reinforcements like ALL of the remaining Sisters of Silence, Malcador and his secret Army, plus countless Conscripts (Billions) to barely hold that damn Gate.

 

Two big groups of Loyalist are going to die keeping Dis Irae alone occupied for the rest of the Siege

 

A massive group of Loyalists has to keep Legio Mortis occupied. Another big group deals with the Warmaster Titans.

 

The bulk of the Death Guard is still alive being lead by Typhus and Vorx. More Loyalists have to be thrown at them just in Echoes alone, nevermind the Final Siege book.

 

Angron is going to attack the Gate head-on. I would call BS if Sanginius even last longer than a few minutes against him.

 

In the old Lore, Magnus unleashed a magical explosion very close to the Gate.

 

World Eaters are still mostly alive and are attacking. A lot of unfortunate Loyalists have to die keeping them from entering the Palace.

 

Millions of Traitor Guardsmen have landed in Mortis alone. Millions more in Warhawk. More millions landing during Echoes. Unless Keeler and Dorn throw every man, woman and child at the MILLIONS of Traitor Guardsmen they are going to take the Palace.

 

What do the Loyalists have by the start of Echoes? What can they afford to throw at all of the various Traitor elements still in the Siege throughout Echoes?

What exactly is your point though?

 

We already know the post-Siege reality.

 

We already know the broad strokes, and as Warhawk showed, good authors adhere to them.

 

ADB has proven, and is on record saying as much, that he cares a lot about cleaving to the history, the lore.

 

Sanguinius will hold the gate. As many need to live, die, be present, or missing, will be so, for the constraints of the story he tells.

 

It's not likely to be the story of a Titan, or Angron, or Magnus, though it may have Night Lords for a number of reasons.

 

Regardless, if you are looking for realistic numbers of attackers, defenders, assets and troop movements...

 

You will be completely disappointed, I'm sure of it.

[Moonreaper666]

How old is the lore about Magnus letting off an explosion?

I think it was in Visions of Heresy?

[Taliesin]

 

It's not likely to be the story of a Titan, or Angron, or Magnus, though it may have Night Lords for a number of reasons.

 

Regardless, if you are looking for realistic numbers of attackers, defenders, assets and troop movements...

 

You will be completely disappointed, I'm sure of it.

 

 

I do think if we look at the synopsis, it does usually indicate who the main players will be in a book, as it did for Warhawk as well.

 

" The walls have fallen. The defenders’ unity is broken. The Inner Palace lies in ruins. The Warmaster’s horde advances through the fire and ash of Terra’s dying breaths, forcing the loyalists back to the Delphic Battlement, the very walls of the Sanctum Imperialis. Angron, Herald of Horus, has achieved immortality through annihilation – now he leads the armies of the damned in a wrathful tide, destroying all before them as the warp begins its poisonous corruption of Terra. For the Emperor’s beleaguered forces, the end has come. The Khan lies on the edge of death. Rogal Dorn is encircled, fighting his own war at Bhab Bastion."

 

Going by that it does seem that Angron and his forces will be a good part of what the book will be about, with Sanguinius and the defenders on the other side of that.

[Guest Triszin]

Would be fun to see some black vaults get opened to see some doomsday daot human tech

[Ubiquitous1984]

Would be fun to see some black vaults get opened to see some doomsday daot human tech

That feels like something ABD would do.  He was the one who introduced the Ordu Sinister IIRC.

[Guest Triszin]

Chaos legion mortis.

You have forced my hand.

Meet ur-757 zeta 5

 

The man of iron the size of a Titan moves forward.

 

Ur-757 zeta 5: " cowabunga it is"

[Ubiquitous1984]

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture?  But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege?  The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.  

[Scribe]

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

[Ubiquitous1984]

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

 

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.  

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?  

[Scribe]

 

 

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?

I really couldn't guess even. I think he's a very interesting character, far more interesting than all the perpetuals LOL!

 

I think he's just a potential mcguffin, but not a necessary part of the story.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?

I really couldn't guess even. I think he's a very interesting character, far more interesting than all the perpetuals LOL!

 

I think he's just a potential mcguffin, but not a necessary part of the story.

Fo's weapon will be used by Ollianius to weaken Horus alongside Enuncia

 

Ordo Sinister is currently losing to Dis Irae and the rest of Legio Mortis

 

Warmaster Titans still 100% fresh

 

Where are the Skitarii? The Traitor Skitarii?

Edited March 1, 2022 by Moonreaper666

[Scribe]

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?

I really couldn't guess even. I think he's a very interesting character, far more interesting than all the perpetuals LOL!

 

I think he's just a potential mcguffin, but not a necessary part of the story.

Fo's weapon will be used by Ollianius to weaken Horus alongside Enuncia

 

Ordo Sinister is currently losing to Dis Irae and the rest of Legio Mortis

 

Warmaster Titans still 100% fresh

 

Where are the Skitarii? The Traitor Skitarii?

Again, I ask what does it matter?

 

The rescue fleet WILL arrive.

Sanguinius WILL hold the gate.

Horus WILL invite the Emperor to make his play.

The Imperium WILL NOT lose Terra.

 

Do these 100% fresh Titans matter in the broad strokes of the story?

 

Not at all.

[Noserenda]

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?

I really couldn't guess even. I think he's a very interesting character, far more interesting than all the perpetuals LOL!

 

I think he's just a potential mcguffin, but not a necessary part of the story.

Fo's weapon will be used by Ollianius to weaken Horus alongside Enuncia

 

Ordo Sinister is currently losing to Dis Irae and the rest of Legio Mortis

 

Warmaster Titans still 100% fresh

 

Where are the Skitarii? The Traitor Skitarii?

Again, I ask what does it matter?

 

The rescue fleet WILL arrive.

Sanguinius WILL hold the gate.

Horus WILL invite the Emperor to make his play.

The Imperium WILL NOT lose Terra.

 

Do these 100% fresh Titans matter in the broad strokes of the story?

 

Not at all.

 

Exactly this! What i dont get about the weird factionalism here is.. The Traitors lose. They lose hard. Even though the Defenders are hardly much better the Traitors get near destroyed entirely in a rout when Horus falls, they take huge casualties, ditch most of their heavy equipment (multimeltas AND land speeders!)  and the majority of those "fresh warmasters" get left behind to be picked off alongside all the traitors chaff.

 

Subject to change obviously but i suspect the rout wont be too different and the loyalists will still have spaceports and orbital superiority as the traitors desperately flee. 

 

The key point being, we know how it ends why this weird propagandist arc right on the cusp of that? :D

 

I suspect timing wise this book will take us right up to the Traitors breaching the final gates as a bit of a cliffhanger and the last book(s) will cover the battle on board the Vengeful spirit and the rout, probably finishing with Angron being dragged onto a ship. 

[Sothalor]

You know, I wouldn't mind if Fo's arc during the Siege ends up being one of futility - that he considers himself this great mind of SCIENCE and learning and genetic engineering and he understands the mysteries of physics and reality and the universe, compared to all you uneducated plebes, and how FO has devised, at this last terrible hour a weapon of science and reason, a contagion to target the genetic material of the Primarchs, and end things clearly and decisively. And FO will prove once and for all how he is clearly superior to even the Emperor in the ways of intellect and science and reason...

 

Only for it to turn out the Primarchs aren't just supreme examples of genetic engineering, but are literally infused body and soul with the stuff of unreality, and his weapon was never going to work.

 

That the Warp isn't just another dimension that you can understand through rationality.

 

That this isn't a universe of clean rules and reason.

 

That the gods are real, and they hate you.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?

I really couldn't guess even. I think he's a very interesting character, far more interesting than all the perpetuals LOL!

 

I think he's just a potential mcguffin, but not a necessary part of the story.

Fo's weapon will be used by Ollianius to weaken Horus alongside Enuncia

 

Ordo Sinister is currently losing to Dis Irae and the rest of Legio Mortis

 

Warmaster Titans still 100% fresh

 

Where are the Skitarii? The Traitor Skitarii?

Again, I ask what does it matter?

 

The rescue fleet WILL arrive.

Sanguinius WILL hold the gate.

Horus WILL invite the Emperor to make his play.

The Imperium WILL NOT lose Terra.

 

Do these 100% fresh Titans matter in the broad strokes of the story?

 

Not at all.

Exactly this! What i dont get about the weird factionalism here is.. The Traitors lose. They lose hard. Even though the Defenders are hardly much better the Traitors get near destroyed entirely in a rout when Horus falls, they take huge casualties, ditch most of their heavy equipment (multimeltas AND land speeders!) and the majority of those "fresh warmasters" get left behind to be picked off alongside all the traitors chaff.

 

Subject to change obviously but i suspect the rout wont be too different and the loyalists will still have spaceports and orbital superiority as the traitors desperately flee.

 

The key point being, we know how it ends why this weird propagandist arc right on the cusp of that? :D

 

I suspect timing wise this book will take us right up to the Traitors breaching the final gates as a bit of a cliffhanger and the last book(s) will cover the battle on board the Vengeful spirit and the rout, probably finishing with Angron being dragged onto a ship.

I doubt its the same. Knowing the authors and how the HH novels have drastically changed the plot things will be different

 

The Traitors nearly overwhelm Sanginius forcing the Primarch to retreat to the Throne. Angron is banished but he kills so many Custodes and breaches the Gate. Every inch of the path to the Throne has the Loyalists shedding a lot of blood to slow down the Traitors. All of the Sisters of Silence, Knights and Loyalist Blackshields die. 99.9% of the civilian population, Trillions of souls, are killed.

 

Horus does the unthinkable, he summons a Warpstorm which blocks all Warp jumps into the Solar System. Furthermore the Warpstone allows Daemons to manifest at full strength and four times the numbers.

 

Emperor orders Su-Kassen to throw every Loyalist ship against the Vengeful Spirit. She dies, the Phalanx is damaged to the point it takes CENTURIES to be repaired and every other Loyalist ship is blown to pieces. But she manages to damage the VS enough to disable its Void Shields.

 

Keeler and Garro sacrifice their lives to protect Malcador and the Throne. Emperor's strikeforce is separated when they teleport into the VS.

 

They recklessly advance deep into the VS, trading caution for speed, resulting in many deaths. Doombreed, Shalaxi Hellbane, Bubonicus and Aetaurkeres await, slaughtering the Loyalist and wounding Dorn, Sanginius and the Emperor

 

Emperor has Ollianius Pius, Basilio Fo, John Grammaticus, Amon and Archamus on his side when he fights Horus. Sanginius is curbstomped to death, he doesn't even have time to say a single word.

 

Unlike the pussified-old lore version in Visions of the Heresy, the Emperor goes for the kill right from the start but his mighty blow merely scratch Horus. The Warmaster kills Archamus, John, Fo and Amon in a heartbeat. Emperor tries using Enuncia but so does Horus so it cancels out, no effect.

 

Olly and Neoth bet on a gamble. Horus wails on the Emperor beating him so bad he can't regenerate anymore and is close to death but it's a distraction. Olly gets close to Horus...

 

...and injects the Genevirus which mutilates Horus' body and clamps his mouth. Olly does the unthinkable and unleashes the full power of Enuncia which kills Olly, weakens the dying Emperor and severely wounds Horus.

 

Unfortunately it's not enough. Horus is still alive, flesh hanging like a Ghoul and beats the :cuss out of Dorn. As Horus was going to strike the killing blow on Dorn the Emperor does the Unthinkable...

 

...he unleashes a spell which erases Horus' soul which has grave consenquences. The act of erasing the soul of a Primarch actually massively empowers the Chaos Gods and prevents the Emperor from ever truly harming them forever even if someone goes back in time.

 

Abaddon and Loken show up. The Son of Horus suddenly has a strange Mark on his forehead which allows him to rip off Dorn's hand.

 

Loken activates his Psyker Powers to fight Ascendant Abaddon, telling Dorn to take the Emperor and RUN!!!

 

Abaddon devours Loken's soul and body then does the same to two dozen Custodes but Dorn and the Emperor manage to teleport back to the Throne. Disgusted at what he's done he pilots the VS and leaves for the Eye of Terror

 

Makes more sense than the crappy Old Lore/Visions of Heresy. Stakes are much higher and everything is much more brutal

 

Visions of Heresy never made sense. Konrad alone easily wins the Siege for Horus, dismembering Dorn then Sigismund. Lorgar uses Sorcery-Lightning to Black Hawk Down Sanginius. There was no Aegis or Emperor's Aura so Daemon Primarchs and Horus are free to slaughter Loyalists at the start of the Siege

[DarkChaplain]

We're now on page four and you're still throwing around your fanfic/lexicanum-halfknowledge and declare it as fact?

Just let it go, please. We're spinning around in circles again, and the book is still months out at this rate. Heck, even just reading your posts dampens my excitement for the novel.

 

And please, I beg you. Please. Read the actual books and not just abridged wiki pages, because a lot of the things you claim or seem confused by have been addressed and told through the actual text. Stories have nuance. Actions have context. Characters have emotional responses. It's never been as clearly confined by cold numbers or "logical" roadmaps as you make it out to be. There's always been wiggle room and a big part of the human element - both through the characters within each book, and by way of the author.