SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Scribe]

You know, I wouldn't mind if Fo's arc during the Siege ends up being one of futility - that he considers himself this great mind of SCIENCE and learning and genetic engineering and he understands the mysteries of physics and reality and the universe, compared to all you uneducated plebes, and how FO has devised, at this last terrible hour a weapon of science and reason, a contagion to target the genetic material of the Primarchs, and end things clearly and decisively. And FO will prove once and for all how he is clearly superior to even the Emperor in the ways of intellect and science and reason...

 

Only for it to turn out the Primarchs aren't just supreme examples of genetic engineering, but are literally infused body and soul with the stuff of unreality, and his weapon was never going to work.

 

That the Warp isn't just another dimension that you can understand through rationality.

 

That this isn't a universe of clean rules and reason.

 

That the gods are real, and they hate you.

I'd actually laugh out loud, perfect ending.

[Moonreaper666]

We're now on page four and you're still throwing around your fanfic/lexicanum-halfknowledge and declare it as fact?

Just let it go, please. We're spinning around in circles again, and the book is still months out at this rate. Heck, even just reading your posts dampens my excitement for the novel.

 

And please, I beg you. Please. Read the actual books and not just abridged wiki pages, because a lot of the things you claim or seem confused by have been addressed and told through the actual text. Stories have nuance. Actions have context. Characters have emotional responses. It's never been as clearly confined by cold numbers or "logical" roadmaps as you make it out to be. There's always been wiggle room and a big part of the human element - both through the characters within each book, and by way of the author.

I've read Solar War, Saturnine, Mortis and Warhawk

 

John French especially notes the massive numbers Horus had

 

I will hate it if Imperial fanboys like you force ADB to turn Sanginius into an unstoppable Mary Sue

 

Sang should have limits and he can't pull Echoes' story and pivotal battle on his own

[Lord_Caerolion]

As opposed to your version of Horus who just effortlessly destroys everyone and turns Sanguinius’ sacrifice into “lol Horus just kills him instantly”?

Are you still wondering why Abaddon didn’t load his attack craft full of daemons in Saturnine? You read the books, but it honestly seems you miss the context and the “why’s” of why and how battles are occurring, just wanting big showy fights where arbitrary numbers of kill-counts are thrown around to show off how impressive characters are.

[DarkChaplain]

 

We're now on page four and you're still throwing around your fanfic/lexicanum-halfknowledge and declare it as fact?

Just let it go, please. We're spinning around in circles again, and the book is still months out at this rate. Heck, even just reading your posts dampens my excitement for the novel.

 

And please, I beg you. Please. Read the actual books and not just abridged wiki pages, because a lot of the things you claim or seem confused by have been addressed and told through the actual text. Stories have nuance. Actions have context. Characters have emotional responses. It's never been as clearly confined by cold numbers or "logical" roadmaps as you make it out to be. There's always been wiggle room and a big part of the human element - both through the characters within each book, and by way of the author.

I've read Solar War, Saturnine, Mortis and Warhawk

 

John French especially notes the massive numbers Horus had

 

I will hate it if Imperial fanboys like you force ADB to turn Sanginius into an unstoppable Mary Sue

 

Sang should have limits and he can't pull Echoes' story and pivotal battle on his own

 

 

....did you.... did you just call me an "Imperial fanboy"??

 

So you've read 4 books out of 6 for the Siege, out of a total of 60(!) books full of developments, character and faction building, and are still claiming authority anyway? I beg you, at least read the books Sanguinius has been in so far and observe his character arc and defining moments throughout the series, if you want to discuss in this matter. We've seen Sanguinius's limits - and his strengths. We've seen the way his foresight haunts and strengthens him.

 

I'd honestly recommend catching up on some of the other novels in the meantime, before Echoes drops. It'll only benefit your overall picture of the Siege.

[Kenzaburo]

Brothers, come on - this discussion is not very constructive if words like "fanboy" and "pussify" are thrown around. A bit more nuance and rationality, please. ;)

 

What moonreaper describes, doesn't sound at all like the storytelling of ADB and Dan. Both aren't afraid of shpcking deaths, some meaningful, some not. But both are very adapt in bringing emotional gravitas to their stories, that's why they are fan favorites. I am sure that this will still be true for the grand finale. There will be deaths of beloved characters and some might make us feel hollow because of their futility (as is natural for wars) and I trust them to show us the scale of devastation caused, but I'm pretty sure we won't see a pure slaughterfest. The overall end of the heresy will be bittersweet, with way more bitterness than sweetness, as is apt for the setting. :)

[Karhedron]

I am wondering if either of the last 2 novels will break with 60+ books worth of tradition and make the Emperor a POV character. I am guessing not as Master of Mankind would have been the opportunity to do that and they opted to take a different path.

 

I think it would be quite cool to have snippets of an unnamed POV character scattered through the text and only at the end do you realise you seeing through the eyes of the Emperor. After all this investment, can anything do justice to the visions of Horus and the Emperor clashing that we have in our minds?

[DarkChaplain]

I could honestly see Dan breaking that taboo in one way or another. But then I'm also extremely curious of how he will deal with Valdor. Chances are, his book(s) will have direct impact on how we'll be perceiving the Indomitus Era arc that's been unfolding, and - most notably - the Bequin trilogy.

 

I don't think ADB will be the one to break with convention in Echoes, though. If it happens, it's likely to be in the finale, in the final confrontation or with brief snippets throughout, no actual PoV plotline like we've seen for Dorn, or Sanguinius. If I had to guess, it'd probably be along the lines of the line between "The Emperor" and the "man" blurring and/or shattering in the last moments. The Emperor showing his humanity one final time before blackness takes him, either during the climax of his duel against Horus, or while giving his final instructions about the Throne.

 

In other words: I wish for that one brief moment of honest reflection, of ideals and hopes shattered, of grief and regret, before he steels himself for the agonies to come.

[Moonreaper666]

I could honestly see Dan breaking that taboo in one way or another. But then I'm also extremely curious of how he will deal with Valdor. Chances are, his book(s) will have direct impact on how we'll be perceiving the Indomitus Era arc that's been unfolding, and - most notably - the Bequin trilogy.

 

I don't think ADB will be the one to break with convention in Echoes, though. If it happens, it's likely to be in the finale, in the final confrontation or with brief snippets throughout, no actual PoV plotline like we've seen for Dorn, or Sanguinius. If I had to guess, it'd probably be along the lines of the line between "The Emperor" and the "man" blurring and/or shattering in the last moments. The Emperor showing his humanity one final time before blackness takes him, either during the climax of his duel against Horus, or while giving his final instructions about the Throne.

 

In other words: I wish for that one brief moment of honest reflection, of ideals and hopes shattered, of grief and regret, before he steels himself for the agonies to come.

I want the Emperor to go straight for the kill when he meets Horus. No hesitation for either combatant in the pivotal duel.

 

There is a good chance Valdor will learn about Enuncia in Echoes. While powerful even a Custode has to pay a price to use it.

 

Enuncia will be pivotal in the Final Siege book and Pandemonium. So would Valdor's descent into Radicalism. Valdor could meat Actae or Morianna to further go down the rabbit hole.

 

Don't think Valdor's 'legacy' will impact post-13th but instead have the audience view pre-13th as much more darker and cynical

 

The things Valdor does post-Heresy plus his death feeds Chaos rather than helps the Imperium. A fitting irony for his narrative and those that are Radical Inquisitors. (*cough* Eisenhorn *cough*)

[Scribe]

You are free to imagine the story going any which way you desire.

 

Don't be surprised when it is a lot closer to the canon we have now, than whatever it is you have made up.

[Taliesin]

 

 

I've read Solar War, Saturnine, Mortis and Warhawk

 

John French especially notes the massive numbers Horus had

 

I will hate it if Imperial fanboys like you force ADB to turn Sanginius into an unstoppable Mary Sue

 

Sang should have limits and he can't pull Echoes' story and pivotal battle on his own

 

 

Incorrigible imperial fanboy he may be   , even DC cannot influence ADB to turn Sanguinius into anything, since the book's been written already.

 

Seriously, the synopsis of the book suggests a still overwhelming force from the traitor side pushing the loyalists back to the last defenses, that much is clear, and I think ADB is more than capable of giving both sides their time in the sun ( if one were visible..). But the Blood Angels should shine here, and its a defining moment for the Archangel of Baal in particular.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Taliesin

[DarkChaplain]

That made me laugh, thanks! :') I just wish where he even got the idea that I was so firmly on Team Imperium, rather than Team Interesting Storytelling. I'm happy with the Imperium losing, it's just that desperate struggles told well are more interesting than invincible murder titans go brrrr you lose.

 

But I concur, this is the Blood Angels' hour of truth - more so than Sanguinius' death to Horus. This is where he's supposed to get his vengeance on Ka'Bandha (though I can't really see it still happening with how the story went), to triumph over the God that tried to tempt him and his sons.

The last hour of glory for the Angel, the moment he unleashes his full potential in desperate defence of the Eternity Gate. Before leaving to meet his doom aboard the Vengeful Spirit...

 

We've had a few small bits of him and his sons on the Vengeful Spirit in the past, actually. Mostly from short stories where Blood Angels or their successors were struggling with the curse. They didn't paint a pretty picture of the ship - infested with daemons, barely real corridors, proper pandaemonium. I wonder if they'll stick with this nightmarish version of the ship, or if they'll handle it more like it was in The Talon of Horus.

[nagashnee]

Honestly its not this book i am worried about ADB has shown he can be relied on to give a new shine to old lore without changing it essence.

 

Now Abnett and the grand finally magicwords/eternals/PLOTTWIST on the other hand is giving me pause. 

 

But then i again i always enjoy reading Moonreapers posts so what do i know. 

[Felix Antipodes]

That made me laugh, thanks! :') I just wish where he even got the idea that I was so firmly on Team Imperium, rather than Team Interesting Storytelling. I'm happy with the Imperium losing, it's just that desperate struggles told well are more interesting than invincible murder titans go brrrr you lose.

 

But I concur, this is the Blood Angels' hour of truth - more so than Sanguinius' death to Horus. This is where he's supposed to get his vengeance on Ka'Bandha (though I can't really see it still happening with how the story went), to triumph over the God that tried to tempt him and his sons.

The last hour of glory for the Angel, the moment he unleashes his full potential in desperate defence of the Eternity Gate. Before leaving to meet his doom aboard the Vengeful Spirit...

 

We've had a few small bits of him and his sons on the Vengeful Spirit in the past, actually. Mostly from short stories where Blood Angels or their successors were struggling with the curse. They didn't paint a pretty picture of the ship - infested with daemons, barely real corridors, proper pandaemonium. I wonder if they'll stick with this nightmarish version of the ship, or if they'll handle it more like it was in The Talon of Horus.

They are still using this description of the Vengeful Spirit in recent shorts.  There is a Flesh Tearers story in the recent Successors anthology where the character falling to the curse describes it as looking just like this.  Possibly a lot of the demonic infestations throughout the ship were banished/moved on between the death of Horus and when it is recovered by Abaddon in the Talon of Horus. 

[Moonreaper666]

Honestly its not this book i am worried about ADB has shown he can be relied on to give a new shine to old lore without changing it essence.

 

Now Abnett and the grand finally magicwords/eternals/PLOTTWIST on the other hand is giving me pause.

 

But then i again i always enjoy reading Moonreapers posts so what do i know.

I doubt Sanginius is able to hold the Gate throughout Echoes

 

Eventually even he gets overwhelmed and is forced to let the Traitors breach the Gate and get VERY CLOSE to the Throne

 

Su-Kassen will sacrifice herself to damage the VS and disable the Void Shield. Helps explain why the Phalanx took over a millenia to be repaired just in time for the last part of the Beast Ork War

 

Vengeful Spirit can put the Phalanx on life support and destroy all other Loyalist ships. With Horus it becomes very-one-sided

 

Valdor could use Enuncia to banish Angron before he kills a wounded Sanginius. But as a side-effect he loses some of his powers, making him corruptible by Chaos

 

Valdor's storyline should be the penultimate Radical theme. Using Chaos to 'beat' Chaos only makes it stronger. Too bad Eisenhorn only realizes this in his final battle in Pandemonium when he dies.

 

It is probable that two Enuncia users can cancel each other out. Fo's Genevirus can weaken Horus and shut his mouth, allowing the Emperor and Olly use Enuncia

 

Typhus can just use his AIDS-spells to kill Sanginius while he is busy holding the gate. Someone has to 1 vs 1 him in Echoes.

 

Keeler has to fight Ahriman 1 vs 1

[aa.logan]

 

 

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?

I’m convinced that Fo’s phage is going to be pivotal to the shields on the Vengeful Spirit being dropped or at least why the Emperor goes up there. Not sure which side is going to threaten to unleash it though.

[DarkChaplain]

 

Keeler has to fight Ahriman 1 vs 1

 

Wha? Did I read that right?

 

What do Keeler and Ahriman even have to do with one another? Let alone that Ahriman hasn't even been featured in any novel since Fury of Magnus - where he and the other Thousand Sons that were with Magnus to chat up Malcador and the Emperor were evacuated from Terra through the warp. It's not even clear if he's still taking part in the Siege.

 

And he doesn't even have a thematic reason to even encounter Keeler of all people. What's the narrative reason this should happen?

Edited March 3, 2022 by DarkChaplain

[nagashnee]

 

 

Keeler has to fight Ahriman 1 vs 1

 

 

And he doesn't even have a thematic reason to even encounter Keeler of all people. What's the narrative reason this should happen?

 

To be fair to Moonreaper narrative reason is not the HH strong suit.

 

The 'real' question is if this fight will be mental, psychic or physical. If the latter i could see Keeler using a proto imperial power bible to lay the smack down, have her start to lose, only for loken to come out of nowhere with the steel chair. But wait, the chair is not just any chair, but the emperors favorite perpetual chair that was once his couchmaster.

 

For real tho would re read the entire siege as written  by Moonreaper.  

Edited March 3, 2022 by nagashnee

[Pacific81]

Above all I am intrigued to find out which way they go with the "Horus lowers the shields to see his dad die", "Horus lowers the shields at the point of victory because he finally realises what he has done" etc - or who knows, he might not lower the shields at all! 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Pacific81

[nagashnee]

Above all I am intrigued to find out which way they go with the "Horus lowers the shields to see his dad die", "Horus lowers the shields at the point of victory because he finally realises what he has done" etc - or who knows, he might not lower the shields at all! 

 

They could always stick with the classics, and have him do it out of desperation, as the relief fleet is about to arrive and him realizing he is still days/weeks away from getting to the E on the ground. 

[Karhedron]

They could always stick with the classics, and have him do it out of desperation, as the relief fleet is about to arrive and him realizing he is still days/weeks away from getting to the E on the ground.

That is still my headcanon based on the old Bill King stories.

[63-19]

Above all I am intrigued to find out which way they go with the "Horus lowers the shields to see his dad die", "Horus lowers the shields at the point of victory because he finally realises what he has done" etc - or who knows, he might not lower the shields at all! 

In Misbegotten where Fo is introduced there's a line or two at the end that says Horus cried out of fear of what he has done to the spirit of the Imperium. I'd imagine he has a mental breakdown in siege 8 and lowers the shields himself. Even though it was written in 2018 the parts about Fo still hold true. It being written by Abnett doesn't hurt either.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Above all I am intrigued to find out which way they go with the "Horus lowers the shields to see his dad die", "Horus lowers the shields at the point of victory because he finally realises what he has done" etc - or who knows, he might not lower the shields at all!

In Misbegotten where Fo is introduced there's a line or two at the end that says Horus cried out of fear of what he has done to the spirit of the Imperium. I'd imagine he has a mental breakdown in siege 8 and lowers the shields himself. Even though it was written in 2018 the parts about Fo still hold true. It being written by Abnett doesn't hurt either.

Horus at this point should be able to summom the grandfather of all Warp-storm to prevent Guilliman to enter the Solar System. Wolfsbane got rid of any humanity Horus had.

 

Keeler vs Ahriman is like Khan vs Mortarion. The Hopeful vs Hopeless. One lost all hope while the other found it through it all.

[Taliesin]

 

 

Above all I am intrigued to find out which way they go with the "Horus lowers the shields to see his dad die", "Horus lowers the shields at the point of victory because he finally realises what he has done" etc - or who knows, he might not lower the shields at all!

In Misbegotten where Fo is introduced there's a line or two at the end that says Horus cried out of fear of what he has done to the spirit of the Imperium. I'd imagine he has a mental breakdown in siege 8 and lowers the shields himself. Even though it was written in 2018 the parts about Fo still hold true. It being written by Abnett doesn't hurt either.

Horus at this point should be able to summom the grandfather of all Warp-storm to prevent Guilliman to enter the Solar System. 

 

 

Thats not what it says in Visions of Heresy/Collected Visions, the old lore bible.

[DukeLeto69]

Sorry Moonreaper666 I don’t want this to appear like a pile on but I do have to say I am glad ADB and Abnett are writing the last books of the SoT series and not you.

 

We all (I think) like a bit of head cannon but jeez!

[grailkeeper]

Three minor things I want. One must be from ADB but the others can be from anyone.

 

1. The Emperor to give the command that Land Raiders be reserved for marines,

 

2. Dorn to say "give me 100 space marines or failing that 1000 other troops",

 

3. For ADB to have Raguel the sufferer to appear- even if only in passing.