Thunderwolf Cavalry or Sanguinary Guard

[jaxom]

Models aside, I'd love to read people's opinions about how these two iconic units stack up against each other (not literally who would win in a fight).

 

All other list aspects being relatively equitable, would you rather have a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry or Sanguinary Guard?

 

If they were operating alone?

If they were operating with a Captain-style or Lieutenant-style character?

If they were operating with a Chaplain-style character?

If they were operating with a Librarian-style character?

[Karhedron]

I play both Wolves and Blood Angels here so I am fairly invested in both options.

Sanguinary Guard hit like a ton of bricks. Every model has a 2D weapon and they usually get +1 to Wound. They also have superior mobility as Jump Infantry can go places Cavalry cannot. They are a bit of a glass cannon unit though as they are only slightly more durable than normal Marines. A key feature of Sanguinary Guard is their "Heirs of Azkellon" rule which provides +1 to Hit while they are near the Warlord. This is a big incentive to keep them near your Warlord and as such they lose some of their lustre when operating alone.

My preferred option for an HQ to accompany the Sanguinary Guard is actually a Sanguinary Priest (fittingly enough). Give him the Selfless Healer WLT and full Cheif Apothecary upgrade. Then give him the Armour Indomitus as he a is a bit squishy otherwise. He fixes the SG's weaknesses while triggering their Heirs of Azkellon rule. He provides them with a 6+++ for a little extra durability, he can heal a model every turn and resurrect another one for free. He really is the perfect partner for Sanuinary Guard and in a small game, he is the only Character support they need. Of course they certainly benefit from other character buffs but if you are looking for the most bang for your buck, the Sanguinary Priest packs the most benefits into the most compact package.

Thunderwolf Cavalry on the other hand benefit from a bit of tooling up. Their biggest draw is durability as every model has T5, 4W and can be given a stormshield for that sweet 2+/4++ save. They also have bite attacks that can thin hordes quite effectively. My preferred loadout is most of the squad with Lighting Claw and Stormshield and the leader with a SS and Thunder Hammer. Depending on the size of squad, giving an extra dude a power fist or Hammer can be good as it is vital for dealing with tough targets. Mind you, even Lightning Claws can do a lot of damage when wielded by Space Wolves and combined with the Savage Strike stratagem so they can pretend to be Blood Angels for a turn.

Unlike Sanguinary Guard, TWC are quite happy running on their own and a squad of 3-4 can harass an enemy flank quite effectively unsupported. Of course they do benefit from support but not from a Lt (WGBL) because his aura of rerolling 1s to Wound is already covered by the Lightning Claws. The 2 best options are a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf or a Primaris Chaplain on Bike. Both can keep up with the TWC quite happily and dish out variety of useful buffs. Combined with Armour Indomitus (and a Storm Shield for the WL), these are some of the tankiest characters on the Marine roster and are excellent in their own right as well as for the buffs they provide to the squad.

Their drawback compared to Sanguinary Guard is that Cavalry have more limited mobility. The larger bases are also hard to manoeuvre. How much this is a problem depends on how much terrain you use and what type. I know some people who barely find it an hindrance at all but some tournaments do seem to be increasing the amount and type of terrain they provide so this is worth baring in mind.

Which is better? 345 points will buy you a 10-man squad of Sanguinary Guard with a mix of Swords and fists. They will get 40 attacks on the charge (50 in the assault Doctrine). On the charge they can expect to kill almost twice their own number of MEQs which is pretty staggering. They can also inflict impressive damage on anything up to and including Knights. Just watch out for abilities like the -1 Damage rule on Dreadnoughts. Sanguinary Guard rely on the 2D weapons for a lot of their oomph so units like this rob them of 50% of their killing power. You get 20 wounds at T4 with a 2+ save.

320 points will buy you 6 TWC with Storm Shields, 4 Lightning Claws and 2 Thunder hammers. They dish out 23 attacks on the charge and have 24 wounds at T5 and a 2+/4++ save. On the charge they are decent but only kill slightly over their own number of MEQs. They are decent at tackling large targets, particularly if using Savage Strike.

A lot of it depends on preference. Sanguinary Guard hit harder but really need character support. Thunderwolves are more durable but less manoeuvrable. I rarely leave Baal without my Sanguinary Guard.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d go with TWC… durability is everything plus they can hack stuff up real good .

[Tokugawa]

TWC has excellent datasheet on paper now. The biggest problem is 60mm base size.

[tychobi]

Sanguinary Guard have the competitive edge.  Infantry, fly, deepstrike  and +1 to charges give flexibility and reliability.  I can predict your TWC path as soon as I see them.  9th is too deadly to rely on meat bombs even with storm shields.  

[jaxom]

This is all very interesting! Karhedron, your write-up was fantastic.

 

TWC has excellent datasheet on paper now. The biggest problem is 60mm base size.

 

I'm not sure I follow this. I would think that the bigger bases make a small unit better at getting stuck in with more models. I guess I'm missing something from a maneuver perspective?

[phandaal]

 

I guess I'm missing something from a maneuver perspective?

 

Makes it harder to maneuver, yes. Not only does it restrict their movement lanes in and around terrain, the larger base makes it easier to move block them with chaff or catch them in line of sight for shooting.

[Karhedron]

Just remembered that the Sanguinary Priest also has the ability to use his Grail to put a nearby unit into the Assault Doctrine every turn. That gives the Sanguinary Guard an extra attack and puts the Sword and Fist attacks up to AP-4.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

SG die to a stiff breeze. Just not worth it.

[jaxom]

SG die to a stiff breeze. Just not worth it.

I’m guessing that applies to TWC if they don’t have SS, as well?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

For sure the shields are mandatory!

[Tokugawa]

Just remembered that the Sanguinary Priest also has the ability to use his Grail to put a nearby unit into the Assault Doctrine every turn. That gives the Sanguinary Guard an extra attack and puts the Sword and Fist attacks up to AP-4.

Just remember that your maths "neglected" the attacks from wolf steeds. With doctrine that are at least 3 power sword attacks per model. Is it intended?

[Karhedron]

Just remember that your maths "neglected" the attacks from wolf steeds. With doctrine that are at least 3 power sword attacks per model. Is it intended?

Not intended, just a brain fail.

 

I mentioned the bite attacks at the start and then failed to take them into account for future calculations.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Let’s not forget the most important part.

 

Rule of cool.

Riding giant puppies into battle? Kinda lame.

Dropping on an enemy’s head in shining gold armor, and a mask of your primarch? Kinda awesome.

[Karhedron]

SG die to a stiff breeze. Just not worth it.

I disagree, they have done brilliantly in every game I have taken them. The lethality in 9th is so high that very few units can just stomp into the enemy ignoring incoming fire. You get more SG than TWC per point so if your opponent can delete incoming SG, they can delete a similar points of TWC. SG can also make better use of terrain to avoid incoming fire.

 

Sanguinary Guard are not as tough as TWC but they hit very hard and are easier to bring to bear on the enemy. Sometimes the best defence is a good offense. The enemy can't kill you if they are dead.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

SG die to a stiff breeze. Just not worth it.

I disagree, they have done brilliantly in every game I have taken them. The lethality in 9th is so high that very few units can just stomp into the enemy ignoring incoming fire. You get more SG than TWC per point so if your opponent can delete incoming SG, they can delete a similar points of TWC. SG can also make better use of terrain to avoid incoming fire.

 

Sanguinary Guard are not as tough as TWC but they hit very hard and are easier to bring to bear on the enemy. Sometimes the best defence is a good offense. The enemy can't kill you if they are dead.

tbf in my experience they die very quickly.

The lethality of this edition is ridiculous. If high AP and mortal wounds weren’t so common SG would be great, but that’s just not the case.

[Karhedron]

Another unit worth considering are Vanguard Veterans. They can take Storm Shields for the desired durability and they have the mobility of SG. I would normally load them out most with single Lightning Claw and Storm shield with a Thunder Hammer on the Sergeant.

 

Blood Angels also have the option to drop a couple of Inferno pistols in there to deal with multi-wound models.

The lethality of this edition is ridiculous. If high AP and mortal wounds weren’t so common SG would be great, but that’s just not the case.

To be fair, that hurts TWC almost as much (moreso in the case of Mortal Wounds).

[phandaal]

 

 

SG die to a stiff breeze. Just not worth it.

I disagree, they have done brilliantly in every game I have taken them. The lethality in 9th is so high that very few units can just stomp into the enemy ignoring incoming fire. You get more SG than TWC per point so if your opponent can delete incoming SG, they can delete a similar points of TWC. SG can also make better use of terrain to avoid incoming fire.

 

Sanguinary Guard are not as tough as TWC but they hit very hard and are easier to bring to bear on the enemy. Sometimes the best defence is a good offense. The enemy can't kill you if they are dead.

tbf in my experience they die very quickly.

The lethality of this edition is ridiculous. If high AP and mortal wounds weren’t so common SG would be great, but that’s just not the case.

That is another point in favor of jump pack troops in my opinion. Bikers/cavalry have the straight line speed advantage but your jump pack guys can get behind/within terrain easier than bikes or bikes shaped like wolves.

[The Unseen]

+1T, +2W, and a 4++ makes the TWC significantly tougher, they don't just evaporate when high ap d2 shots come there way like SG do. T4 and no transhuman means even baseline plasma wounds them a 2+, leaves them with a 5+ save, and kills for every failure.

Against the TW, it's 3s to wound, a 4++, and 2 failed saves to kill.

[ValourousHeart]

You should also consider Ravenwing Black Knights in this comparison.  They have a jink save 5++ (4++ when they advance).

 

With a base stat line comparison most will conclude that Black Knights will fall behind during the assault phase given that they have one less attack and worse AP when compared to the SG.  

 

However what they are failing to consider are the plasma talons baked into the cost of the unit.  Which will be double the damage dealt by the SG and triple the damage dealt by the TWC in the shooting phase prior to charging.  And that is before factoring in Target Guidance, Weapons from the Dark Age, or the varity of ways Dark Angels have to manipulate which combat doctrine is active.

 

Additionally if you are concerned about a dangerous unit tearing your black knights apart in assault you have access to Swift Strike which allows your unit to fall back after they have attacked before the other unit has the opportunity to attack.  Your opponent's only option to attack you is using the cut them down strat.  Since RWBK have a movement of 14" that generally means that your opponent is going to need an 8" charge to get back into assault with them the following turn (assuming the unit has a 6" move).  However if you happened to put them in Devastator Doctrine, your move characteristic is treated as 17", meaning they would need an 11" charge to get back into assault with you.

[jaxom]

Interesting comparison. Do they have similar base size issues as TWC?

[ValourousHeart]

TWC are on 60 MM round bases

RWBK are on 75 MM x 42 MM ovals

Outriders are on 90 MM x 52 MM ovals

 

The bases for RWBK are more narrow than TWC, so you can fit more side by side in a line.  You might even manage to get one extra body into assault over them in a straight line if you take advantage of the oval shape to push some forward and some slightly back but still in engagement range.  If you managed to get the unit surrounded you can fit quite a lot because of the more narrow front.

 

The bases are longer than TWC, so that presents the same issue about getting a second rank in assault.  But means that they can be in assault with a unit further from and objective, yet still be in range to control that objective.

 

Really the question comes down to how the terrain is set up and where the units you want to assault are in relationship to choke points in terrain.  You can mitigate some of that by interesting placement of objectives on the mission where you get a choice.  Although if you are playing in a tournament they tend to skimp on terrain.  It is not like you are going to come across a table so dense with terrain that you can't freely move an imperial knight around.

 

Ravenwing lists tend to shoot more and charge less, which is the opposite of how TWC and SG are played.  So charging is usually reserved for weak exposed units that didn't die in the shooting phase.  An old habit from when all terrain counted as dangerous to bikes.