Thousand Sons - tactical tips

[Rogue]

Does anyone have any tactical pointers for overcoming the Thousand Sons? I played them just before our new codex came out, and was blown away by psychic mortal wounds (to the point where I didn't even play my first turn in one game, and didn't make it to my second turn in the next game).

 

It was 1000 points. He had Arhiman, another sorcerer, two units of marines, one of terminators and a predator. He could cast one power on 3d6, and triggered another cast somehow. So lots and lots of spells going off and dropping mortals everywhere.

 

He went first in both games, which definitely helped him, and he had a squad of marines with super flamers (AP-2, so auto-hit, wound on 3s, no save in most cases) that can teleport around the board. So my troops were taken out in the psychic phase, and then he could pick and choose targets in the shooting phase.

 

Before anyone asks, there wasn't really enough terrain on the board, but that's likely to be the case whenever we play, so I just have to live with that.

 

With the new codex, I can see immediate benefits in taking a magus (for the 5+ FNP in the psychic phase), and the Unwilling Orb relic (extra deny, unlimited deny range) to try and close down a couple of things, like the teleporting flamers.

 

Has anything else worked well against the Sons?

[dracpanzer]

True LOS blocking terrain is a must for 9ed. A lot of household boxes can be put together in various ways to make it.

 

Cereal boxes cut in half across the middle. Flip them over and tape or glue them together to make one of the "L" shapes you see everywhere.

 

Pringles can, powder jugs and all that. Put them on a cardboard base, spray them black and a drybrush with a few craft paints can really change the way 40k plays.

 

The magus does help. So does a sanctus or two to snipe out their characters (think its a 1cp strat to proc perils with the rifle now?) Banners on big neophyte squads as well as an iconward will help keep your squads up.

 

Maybe ask your opponent to let you go first once in a while? With added terrain you might be able to hide a bit, just for starters.

[Rogue]

It is one where going first feels like a big advantage - if I get it, I can put two units of genestealers straight up the table, take out a couple of key units (flame marines, Arhiman, something like that), and put the Sons on the back foot.

 

You're right about terrain. In this case, though, I'm playing at the Sons player's house, with his terrain set, and there's a limit to how much I can demand (or suggest) more terrain.

 

And I'll look at the Sanctus again - got given one over Christmas, but not put him together yet.

[Emicus]

Build the terrain and bring it along :)

[Xenith]

Most direct damage mortal wound spells are 18" range. One can be 24". If you set up 25" away from them, you cripple TSons ability to damage you in T1. 

 

Cult of time has the trigger on a 9+ cast another power. If he's using that, then he can only teleport a single unit once, using the umbraelific crystal. Sorcerous facade is the cult of duplicity psychic power - you can no longer mix cults in warzone Nachmund GT games, but this is legit in normal rulebook missions. 

 

I'm not familiar with the new GSC book's abilities, but the old...sniper dude? Had a perils shooting weapon? That would be useful. 

 

As GSC, if you take a psyker like a patriarch or magus (you will generally, right?) then you open yourself to Wrath of Magnus, where if they kill more with psychic powers than you do, they get 3 points. zoning out T1 causes them to lose 3 points in the first turn. If they get unlucky and only kill 1-2 models, then forget your other powers and try to smite some stuff to draw even and deny them more points.

 

If you really want to mess with them, chuck a cheap vehicle into their lines T2 (after holding back T1) so all the smites have to go into that. They'll do like 5 spells for one kill, likely losing another 3 WoM points. 

 

A common tactic is to play cult of time (regenerate models) and To the Last. If they do this then focus on wiping entire units. If you leave one alive, like the sorc, then they can just run away, or regenerate models all game. 

 

Duplicity is harder to screen with the teleporting. You might just have to accept losing a unit, but then kill the flamers next turn.

[Xenith]

It is one where going first feels like a big advantage - if I get it, I can put two units of genestealers straight up the table, take out a couple of key units (flame marines, Arhiman, something like that), and put the Sons on the back foot.

 

You're right about terrain. In this case, though, I'm playing at the Sons player's house, with his terrain set, and there's a limit to how much I can demand (or suggest) more terrain.

 

And I'll look at the Sanctus again - got given one over Christmas, but not put him together yet.

 

After saying the above, if your opponent is exposing Ahriman and flame rubrics to you, then not overwatching, maybe tailoring to beat them isnt the best? a min size unit of flamer rubrics should kill ~5 stealers on the overwatch. 

[Rogue]

Not sure about his deployment, but at 1000 points, and on that size table, it's not easy to screen lots of units. And with one brood of genestealers moving 24" plus a charge if I want it, I feel like I can get to most things unless they're really buried deep.

 

And if I'm planning to charge flamers, I'm definitely dropping a Crossfire marker and the Covering Fire stratagem on them before going in.

 

Thanks for the tactica - that's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for, and really helpful.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Rogue

[Master Antaeus]

Bringing Ahriman at 1000 points is griefing, but you have no answer to it, so you gotta learn to fight it.  Without knowing what you brought, it's hard to say what to do beyond bringing more terrain and making him come to you for a turn.  You might even consider a sacrificial bait unit to bait his rubrics forward so you can pounce.  You can't beat that army in a war of attrition, even with your superior number of bodies, so put the pressure on and keep it on.  Also, elite troops that like to deal mortal wounds are allergic to aberrants with biophagus support.

[Rogue]

In the game we played, and bearing in mind that I thought we were going for a friendly game with me largely teaching him how to play the game, I brought this lot from the old codex:

 

Patriarch, Primus and Magus

10 acolytes with rock saws

3x5 acolytes

2x5 aberrants

Clamavus

 

Having looked at the new codex, and also seeing the need to play a little more competitively, I'm now thinking something more like this:

 

Magus (Unwilling Orb)

Patriarch

10 acolytes, rock drills (A Trap Sprung)

5 acolytes

5 acolytes

10 neophytes

10 genestealers (They Came From Below)

10 genestealers (Our Time is Nigh)

 

If I get first turn, then both units of stealers are up the table (one doing 18" + advance, the other doing 15" (via the 6" advance strat)), for hopefully two charges and lots of disruption. I'd also use the nexos to crossfire and remove overwatch if necessary. The big brood of acolytes drop in turn two, and the smaller ones go objective hunting. The neophytes are just there to hold a base objective, and provide screening.

 

If I don't get first turn, the neophytes can be set up as a screen, but within 6" of the magus to gain a 5+ FNP against psychic mortals. The unwilling orb gives me at least a chance to deny the teleport psychic power, and hopefully I can screen it out better with a flanking unit in cover. Maybe. But I also like the suggestion about aberrants - I could drop one brood of stealers and slot in the aberrants, although I'd then need to find another 55 points for the alchemist supreme, as otherwise I run the risk of not getting first turn and not getting the FNP into play before the mortals hit.

 

I'm also pondering droping the neophytes for a goliath truck to hide something in, and letting the truck soak up the mortals instead of infantry.

[Rogue]

The rematch is on for this evening. Turns out my mental maths was off, so I can have everything above plus the Goliath, and a Nexos.

 

The bare minimum plan is to survive until turn 3, which will (sadly) represent progress against the Sons. Plan B is to utilise the awesone power of the new codex to crush them completely.

 

Whatever happens, I'll keep you posted :)

[Xenith]

How'd it go? Keen to hear about it. The GSC codex seems pretty decent, with some tactical options. TS has a generally weak codex, but with some fun abilities and surprisingly tough troops. 

[Rogue]

So, it turns out I'm an idiot. The final result was a 4-point victory to the Sons, but I threw away a win with some poor tactical decisions later in the game (charging into combat when going the other way and claiming an objective would have meant a significant point-swing, for example).

 

Meh. There's always next time.

[Xenith]

Live and learn - losing models in 9th is a part of the game, taking [and holding] objectives is what wins it - took me a while to work that out! Great to see the game was close, though, big improvement over last time! 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Xenith

[Rogue]

Thanks, Xenith. In the spirit of learning (and while my basing paint dries), here's how it all went wrong...

 

THOUSAND SONS: Cult of Mutation

Ahriman on disc (Firestorm, Doombolt, Desecration)

Daemon Prince (Conniving Plate, Vicissitude, wings)

Mutalith Vortex Beast

5 Rubrics, soul-reaper

6 Scarabs, soul reaper

4 spawn

[The not-Ahriman psykers had various buffing powers]

 

RED BROTHERHOOD: Twisted Helix

Patriarch (Speed, Elixir (5+FNP))

Magus (Unwilling Orb)

Nexos

10 neophytes, shotguns, 2 flamers

10 acolytes, 4 rock drills, A Trap Sprung

5 acolytes

5 acolytes

10 genestealers, They Came From Below

10 genestealers, Our Time is Nigh

Goliath truck

(Both psykers have Might, Hypnosis, Deviation and Smite)

I took Broodswarm, Homers and Outflank (mission specific) - Homers was a mistake, should have taken RND.

 

It's the Crossfire mission from the main book (deploy in opposite quarters, 9" no-mans in the middle, 4 objectives), but with Nachmund secondary objectives.

 

He starts all six units on the board (in the NE corner). I have all three units of acolytes underground, and the OTIN stealers in the truck. The nexos holds my objective, and is out of sight in cover - everything else is huddled up behind some obscuring ruins (in the SW corner). He goes first (for the third game in a row).

 

Turn 1 (2-0)

Ahriman, the spawn and the beast move to the NW quarter. The marines stay back, although the Scarabs move up a bit towards the middle, and the prince takes the SE objective. The Prince uses the cult power to slow my TCFB stealers. Ahriman also hits them with the 'move and suffer mortals' spell, and drops mortals on the truck (all he can see). The beast finishes off the truck in the shooting phase, and I lose 3 stealers as they get out. But I'm feeling okay - just down a transport and 3 stealers.

 

I move the neophytes to control the NW objective, and rapid advance the OTIN stealers onto Ahriman's toes. The other stealers and patriarch line up to charge the spawn (no way to reach the beast at this point) - moving and charging costs me 3 stealers (because of the psychic power). I use the nexos to crossfire the spawn, and force them to fight last. The stealers turn Ahriman into red mist, and the others and the patriarch take out all the spawn. Still feeling positive at this point - Ahriman gone, a third of the Sons' units gone, controlling two objectives and just down a truck and 6 stealers. 

 

Turn 2 (19-10)

He shifts the marines towards the north to get sight of the stealers, and brings the prince off the objective to support them. Firepower removes 6 of the unit who fought the spawn, but he can't target the other stealers with marines as they Lurk in the Shadows. The beast can, however, and kills 4, then charges the patriarch (and the last stealer of that unit) with 15 attacks, but the patriarch survives on two wounds (the FNP helping out). In return, the stealer scores 2 wounds, and the patriarch another 6, reducing the beast to just 6 wounds left.

 

I heal the patriarch, and drop in two units of acolytes - the rock drills appear in the NW corner to charge the beast, and one of the small units in the NE corner to deploy a homer. He uses a stratagem to shoot and kill the unit as the appear. Pants. This was a double mistake. Firstly, I should have taken RND - I needed to control objectives in each quarter anyway, and with only six units, the Sons struggled to cover the board. At this point, the SE quarter is empty, and I could have controlled the objective and scored for RND. Plus, that would have given me Outflank for 5 points. The second mistake follows on - playing for homers (and broodswarm) meant I could only appear where I could be seen, and effectively wasted a unit for no purpose once they were shot off the board. Had I controlled the SE objective at this point in the game, he'd have to divert one of his units to deal with them, taking them out of the fight elsewhere.  [in an alternative universe, where I did this, I could now be on two RND hits (using the neophytes in turn 1), plus an Outflank, for 9 points. All else being equal, that's now a winning game.]

Anyway. The rock drills finish the beast in short order, and then they return to the shadows. The three stealers on the northern edge charge into the Rubrics, but fluff it a bit and don't kill many.

At this point, I still control 2 objectives I had at the start of the turn (which was more than his 1), and I'm picking up points for broodswarm. I'm annoyed at losing the acolytes, but happy that he's down to three units, one of which is tied up with my (depleted) genestealers.

 

Turn 3 (31-21)

The Scarabs move to the centre, into the obscuring ruins, and have sight of the patriarch and neophytes. The prince joins them. Lots of smites happen - the patriarch is killed, but one stealer fighting the rubrics survives. The scarabs shoot the neophytes to pieces. The rubrics fail to kill the stealer (he makes four 4++ saves in a row), and he kills on in return.

 

The Magus moves to cover the NW objective (it's suicidally open, but will get me Outflank). I drop in the last small acolyte squad on the SE objective (again, for outflank), and bring back the rock drills in the NE - they charge into the rubrics (who ca't do anything about it due to the last stealer stopping them shooting or overwatching). The rock drills chew through the rubrics, and they return to the shadows again. 

 

By this point, we're both thin on the ground. He has six Scarabs and the Prince. I have the Nexos in the SW, the Magus in the NW, a lone stealer in the NE, and 5 acolytes in the SE, plus the rock drills underground. I control three objectives to his none, and am up by 10 points. And then turn four happens.

 

Turn 4 (37-30)

The Scarabs shoot the last genestealer and charge the Magus, and the Prince charges the Nexos. Both combats end as you'd expect, and he now controls the SW and NW objectives. He's also 'maxed' his assassinate objective, having killed all three of my characters.

 

What I did: got trigger happy, and dropped in the rock drills to charge the scarabs. I lost a couple to overwatch, killed a couple of terminators, lost most of the squad in return, and couldn't even claim the objective because Scarabs are objective secured and he outnumbered me 2-4. The Sons now control 2 objectives to my one, and can score big on primaries next turn.

 

What I should have done: not that. I already control the SE objective with the small acolyte squad. if I drop the rock drills in on the NE objective, and do nothing else with them, then I control two objectives, as does he. I don't get Outflank (which I had in mind with the move I made), but could have done homers (or RND, maybe, in alternative universe), plus a point for broodswarm. Just denying him 5 primary points would have swung the result - homers and broodswarm on top would have been the icing. But I didn't do all that, and so this happened.

 

Turn 5 (44-48)

He smites the acolytes at range (using cabal points), and kills a couple, gaining Wrath of Magnus points. The Scarabs finish off the last two rock drills. He can't do anything else, and doesn't need to, because he just scored 15 primary points.

With only three acolytes left, i can't do anything either. 

 

After the game, turn 4 was the real frustration for me. I'd gotten carried away with the rock drills - they mashed up the Mutalith in turn 2, the rubrics in turn 3, and I think I expected them to do the same to the scarabs in turn 4. Realistically, that wasn't going to happen unless I rolled almost straight 6s for the rock drill attacks (in the event, I rolled none). Instead, if I'd thought about it a bit more, and remembered the primaries rather than trying to squeeze out extra secondary points, I could have won by doing almost nothing, and without rolling a single dice. That's annoying - it was there, it was easy, and i still blew it. 

 

Still, on the plus side I made it past turn 2, so it counts as improvement, I guess.

[Xenith]

Nice report, thanks for typing that up! 

 

I think this is really the crux of 9th:

 

 

What I should have done: not that. I already control the SE objective with the small acolyte squad. if I drop the rock drills in on the NE objective, and do nothing else with them, then I control two objectives, as does he. I don't get Outflank (which I had in mind with the move I made), but could have done homers (or RND, maybe, in alternative universe), plus a point for broodswarm. Just denying him 5 primary points would have swung the result - homers and broodswarm on top would have been the icing. But I didn't do all that, and so this happened.

 

Focussing on the mission has always been the way to win, but there are so many options in 9th it makes it hard. If you can drop the guys into cover on an uncontested objective, then do it. It's boring maybe, but might win you the game. 

 

Some armies just play more passively than other to win. and though it's pretty bad, barely have to interact with the opponent. With my Thousand Sons if it's a hold 1, hold 2 mission, I can sacrifice hold more, and just sit on 2 objectives all game and hide in my DZ. I'll get 8 per turn for primaries, and if I pick the right secondaries like to the last, banners, maybe engage, I'll likely get 32+ for primary, 10 for banners, 15 to the last, and 10 engage if I stick a small unit in the 3rd quarter. That's 77 including painted without having to kill any of your models and only one unit leaving my DZ generally. Very boring, but reliable. 

[brother_b]

Played my buddies custodes. Talk about a boring game. They can sit there and deny you everything.

 

I know GW trying to make the game more dynamic but the whole Frontline Gaming ITC style has just felt meh to me. Not sure how to spice it up but maybe switch the points of the objectives each turn forcing movement? Not sure.