Would a "Chapter Serfs" unit make any sense?

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Tumbling out of the lingering questions about whether we'll see a proper Primaris Scouts unit show up at some point, I got to thinking about how a two-wound Scout squad with the PRIMARIS keyword could leave a void in the range, particularly for those of us who have Ultima Founding chapters.

 

AND I look over at the apparently-soon-to-be-updated Chaos Cultists and I think "Y'know, those cheap mortal units could be good for SOMETHING, especially in a game that's become more about map control."

 

So I've been thinking that I would like to see a proper squad of Chapter Serfs or what-have-you. They could be at least as squishy as the longtime one-wound Scouts, but allow for a little more tactical flexibility.

 

At the same time, I wouldn't want to see Marines turn into a soup-in-all-but-name army with a cheesy cheap infantry unit that could be spammed. So maybe even though I'd like to see a Serfs unit designated as Troops, I would argue for a rule that they couldn't be taken in a Patrol detachment at all and could only fill a single slot in a Battalion or Brigade detachment.

 

Thus in most cases, you'd only be able to field a single unit of them during a game... but I'd still like to give them the Combat Squads ability. And a higher potential unit size of twenty, so you WOULD essentially have two cheap ten-man squads to use in a fashion similar to classic Scout functionality.

 

AND of course they'd need transport, so an updated version of the Land Speeder Storm and/or a "Serf Bikers" squad wouldn't be out of line. In fact, a Bikers unit would make more sense than the Scout Bikers ever did since these guys wouldn't ostensibly be about stealth, so the loud motorsickles wouldn't be complete out of place (then again, I'm sure they're doing great things with muffler tech in the 42nd millennium).

 

I know the whole Combat Doctrines concept is predicated on a "Marines-only" force with Servitors managing to not get in the way, but maybe ONE squad of mortals (as opposed to a whole battalion of Guard troops) could also learn to stay out from underfoot without destroying the spirit of those rules.

 

Thoughts?

[Helias_Tancred]

After watching Angels of Death on Warhammer+ I think your idea is totally justified. 

 

At the very minimum chapters have serfs armed on their ships in the same role as Imperial Navy armsmen. Granted that some serfs are failed aspirants I'd imagine them overall to be well qualified to serve in this role. 

 

For lore and fluff purposes it would be a cool unit or two to field on the tabletop. Theres a lot of room for kit-bashing and designing their uniform colors.

Would be a fun hobby challenge to take on.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think running scions or a vanguard of IG veterans can represent chapter serfs just fine.

 

I don’t really think there’s any reason to make a whole new unit in the codex.

 

Or we get primaris scouts, and GW recycles the old scouts as chapter serfs as far as stats go. Then tweak the load out and special rules, if any can be changed.

 

To limit them id say 1 unit of serfs per HQ unit.

 

I’d also honestly limit them to crusade/narrative games. If chapter serfs are engaging the enemy things really aren’t going well for the marines.

 

And just a note about scout bikers.

Scouts aren’t necessarily about stealth.

IFV and AFVs support or are themselves used as recon units all the time.

Scouts in the military can be perform stealthy missions, but they are largely skirmishers who can find the enemy and engage as necessary.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We would have already seen it by now.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

We would have already seen it by now.

nah i don’t agree with that.

Maybe if the primaris hadn’t become a thing we might have seen it by now.

[Closet Skeleton]

Chapter Serfs are civilians, so no, they'd make no sense in a space marine strike force. Even if you do want cheap front line civilians we have servitors in the list already. Unorgmented humans couldn't even survive the drop pod or thunderhawk insertion tactics that space marines use to deploy to combat zones. Having the drop ship fly slower so that the regular humans don't have to spend a few hours vomiting and recovering after landing, further slowing your strike force down is just missing the whole point of having space marines.

 

Space Marines are Marines, they can defend their own ships thankyou very much. Even then there's a big difference between home ground defence like in a Chapter fleet or Fortress Monestary and a non-home ground action which are the norm for space marines. We don't currently have rules for Hive Gang militia in Guard armies, we don't need Chapter Serfs as a strategic choice in a space marine army list. Of course there are scenarios where armed chapter serfs could be on the table top but custom scenarios don't need to care about army lists and model ranges.

 

The Codex Astartes is supposed to give Space Marines strategic weaknesses. The Imperium is an oppressive tributary Empire that cares more about rebellions than foreign invaders. Chaos Marines have access to Cultists because they're from rebellious societies where the transhumans have seized power, the very thing loyalist chapters are hamstrung to stop them doing.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Chapter Serfs are civilians, so no, they'd make no sense in a space marine strike force. Even if you do want cheap front line civilians we have servitors in the list already.

 

Space Marines are Marines, they can defend their own ships thankyou very much. Even then there's a big difference between home ground defence like in a Chapter fleet or Fortress Monestary and a non-home ground action which are the norm for space marines. We don't currently have rules for Hive Gang militia in Guard armies, we don't need Chapter Serfs as a strategic choice in a space marine army list. Of course there are scenarios where armed chapter serfs could be on the table top but custom scenarios don't need to care about army lists and model ranges.

 

The Codex Astartes is supposed to give Space Marines strategic weaknesses. The Imperium is an oppressive tributary Empire that cares more about rebellions than foreign invaders. Chaos Marines have access to Cultists because they're from rebellious societies where the transhumans have seized power, the very thing loyalist chapters are hamstrung to stop them doing.

…ummm serfs fill all sorts of roles from administrative to security…

There’s been mention in books of serfs acting as shipboard security forces…so I guess the marines can’t quite defend their own ships…maybe because most to all of them tend to be be planet side quite regularly so the ships still need people to repel boarders…

Edited February 20, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[BloodyB]

I think I would rather just make a unit to fill that role for narrative missions. Maybe using the Sister's Novitiate squads as a framework. While I like the idea of such a unit, I don't think we need more units in the codex. I could maybe see such a thing in Kill Team, but even then, I think I'd just take scouts.

 

Besides, while Sefs are commonplace in the Chapters, they are relatively untouched ion the lore, and that leaves conversion possibilities open without confusing other players.

[phandaal]

 

Think there is some lore about some chapters having well trained serfs that help defend their fortress monasteries and ships, but Space Marines do not take their serfs into battle.

[WARMASTER_]

I would say no as while the chapter thralls are noted as being incredibly well equipped and trained for mortal soldiers they have there duties and it’s not fighting it’s maintaining the chapters combat effectiveness! they only ever fight in boarding actions or when a fortress monastery is assaulted [as a fight or die situation]

 

As other have said there’s a reason space marines can’t command human forces [see Badab war IA for references]

 

Combat servitors on the other hand make perfect sense in lore and that fact there’s already a unit in game

 

Salvations reach has a great bit of lore in it when three Astartes of different chapters are aided by a servitor pilot in an assault ram and some gun/ammo servitors they bought with them as they were a tiny strike team in need of re-supply and additional fire

Edited February 20, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[Azaiel]

On a slight sidenote I would love to see the Custodes serfs a.k.a spear reloaders.

 

Those guys seem to be some cool dudes since they can carry ammo and throw the spear back to the Custodes in battle.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Azaiel

[Dracos]

I think some of you are mixing your head canon/narrative with the opening post query of a tactical sense ... on the table top. 

 

GW can (and usually do) make the lore doing anything it wants to sell models. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I want movie serfs !

[Marshal Reinhard]

Serfs coming down with marines to do things is a big no no, but we could have situations like in AoD where they're defending assets belonging to a chapter that is not operated or crewed by astartes, case in point: vessels in a chapters fleet are predominantly manned by human operators.

[WARMASTER_]

Serfs coming down with marines to do things is a big no no, but we could have situations like in AoD where they're defending assets belonging to a chapter that is not operated or crewed by astartes, case in point: vessels in a chapters fleet are predominantly manned by human operators.

Actually it’s much always been that most of the crew in Astartes vessels are mono tasked servitors and each ship will have a small but elite crew of officers and thralls

[Slave to Darkness]

Whilst they my not be serfs, artwork going back to 1st ed has Marines fighting with random humans nearby, the old Black Templar codex art had robed humans carrying some kind of relic, I think the 5th? ed Blood Angels dex had some gold masked humans crawling over a Plague Marine, one looked like he was poking it with a gold stick and another was waving a skull around. So its not uncommon for Marines to have some form of humans running about with them. Just need them to stand between us and the enemys bullets and they will have a use in game. 

[WARMASTER_]

True they’re actually some of my favourite artworks especially the BT Templar one from 5th? They’re pretty much always servitors though if not always and very importantly not fighting, they’re always relic bearers or carrying arms for the Astartes and never organised units of warriors

 

the new Blood Angels artwork from the rulebook is another great example of servitors/Thralls arming them for war

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Thanks for the opinions pro and con, guys. Like I hope was made clear in the OP, I'm not really sold on the idea myself but more just seeing it as a potential way to fix a hole in the range if they wind up moving Scouts to a two-wound unit after having already moved them from Troop to Elites.

 

But as I said in the beginning, the last thing I'm looking for is to essentially turn Marines into a soup unit with Guardsmen-in-denial getting spammed all over the place.

 

The problem is, if GW were to approach this by making these guys a super-limited option like one per battalion or something as I suggested, that directly violates the First Law of 40K, which is "GW LOVES MONEY!"

 

IF they were going to bring out a mortal squad like this, I doubt they'd put any such constraints on it in the rules. And I don't think ANYONE would want to see a half-dozen mortal squads showing up in a "Space Marines" list, whether you like the idea of a Cultists parallel or upjumped "Armor Cherub" squad or not.

 

So for now maybe it's for the best that this is just a theoretical discussion.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Serfs coming down with marines to do things is a big no no, but we could have situations like in AoD where they're defending assets belonging to a chapter that is not operated or crewed by astartes, case in point: vessels in a chapters fleet are predominantly manned by human operators.

Actually it’s much always been that most of the crew in Astartes vessels are mono tasked servitors and each ship will have a small but elite crew of officers and thralls

what do you think a small crew for their ships is exactly?

[Marshal Reinhard]

Basically it boils down to: Chapters are not meant to command standing armies of human troops. That's what Huron started doing during Badab isn't it? And we all saw where that went.

 

Sure, Astartes commanders may come to command non astartes elements in a temporary fashion (My go to example would be the 3rd war for Armageddon and Helsreach, where Helbrecht takes supreme command of the space war and all imperial fleet assets, while chaplain Grimaldus, leading a single squad of astartes then takes leadership of the defense of hive Helsreach. My point to all this is that it's all temporary, they don't retain control of the non astartes elements in any fashion) 

 

Non astartes elements on the ground accompanying the astartes are indeed almost always servitors, because those are clearly fair game. Human chapter serfs, be they officers or thralls or what not, step in where servitors don't cut it. (Example I keep coming back to in my mind is the scene from AoD where clearly human sized individuals (and if I'm not mistaken, wearing some form of blood angels iconograpy, but I might be mistaken on that point) with lasguns defending the bridge of the blood angels vessels from a horde of genestealer cultists. They were all masked and faceless so they could have been some sort of combat servitors or thralls (where's the exact distinction on that anyway?), but the point still stands because there's clearly human officers at least on the bridge, the captain being one of the major characters.) 

 

My take away is, humans crewing and manning certain elements certainly exists within chapters, and  while they will fight to protect themselves, they aren't meant to see combat, and are certainly not units that will brought alongside the astartes to any combat engagements. If non astartes elements are brought, those are invariably servitors.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Reinhard

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

Serfs coming down with marines to do things is a big no no, but we could have situations like in AoD where they're defending assets belonging to a chapter that is not operated or crewed by astartes, case in point: vessels in a chapters fleet are predominantly manned by human operators.

Actually it’s much always been that most of the crew in Astartes vessels are mono tasked servitors and each ship will have a small but elite crew of officers and thralls

what do you think a small crew for their ships is exactly?

“ Almost all the ship’s systems are run and monitored by servitors, half-human cyborgs who are wired into the vessel’s weapons, engines and communications apparatus. There are also a few hundred of the Chapter’s serfs to attend to other duties” - Battlefleet Gothic space marines Edited February 21, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[WARMASTER_]

Basically it boils down to: Chapters are not meant to command standing armies of human troops. That's what Huron started doing during Badab isn't it? And we all saw where that went.

 

Sure, Astartes commanders may come to command non astartes elements in a temporary fashion (My go to example would be the 3rd war for Armageddon and Helsreach, where Helbrecht takes supreme command of the space war and all imperial fleet assets, while chaplain Grimaldus, leading a single squad of astartes then takes leadership of the defense of hive Helsreach. My point to all this is that it's all temporary, they don't retain control of the non astartes elements in any fashion)

 

Non astartes elements on the ground accompanying the astartes are indeed almost always servitors, because those are clearly fair game. Human chapter serfs, be they officers or thralls or what not, step in where servitors don't cut it. (Example I keep coming back to in my mind is the scene from AoD where clearly human sized individuals (and if I'm not mistaken, wearing some form of blood angels iconograpy, but I might be mistaken on that point) with lasguns defending the bridge of the blood angels vessels from a horde of genestealer cultists. They were all masked and faceless so they could have been some sort of combat servitors or thralls (where's the exact distinction on that anyway?), but the point still stands because there's clearly human officers at least on the bridge, the captain being one of the major characters.)

 

My take away is, humans crewing and manning certain elements certainly exists within chapters, and while they will fight to protect themselves, they aren't meant to see combat, and are certainly not units that will brought alongside the astartes to any combat engagements. If non astartes elements are brought, those are invariably servitors.

I second this

 

I feel like the OP’a question is also answered because there is a mortal unit you can use for cheap in game as a bullet sponge, zone blocker or back field campers and they’re servitors they’re even lore appropriate :)

Edited February 21, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

True they’re actually some of my favourite artworks especially the BT Templar one from 5th? They’re pretty much always servitors though if not always and very importantly not fighting, they’re always relic bearers or carrying arms for the Astartes and never organised units of warriors

 

the new Blood Angels artwork from the rulebook is another great example of servitors/Thralls arming them for war

we have actual lore not just random pictures that literally shows there are units of combat arms serfs…

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

Serfs coming down with marines to do things is a big no no, but we could have situations like in AoD where they're defending assets belonging to a chapter that is not operated or crewed by astartes, case in point: vessels in a chapters fleet are predominantly manned by human operators.

Actually it’s much always been that most of the crew in Astartes vessels are mono tasked servitors and each ship will have a small but elite crew of officers and thralls

what do you think a small crew for their ships is exactly?

“ Almost all the ship’s systems are run and monitored by servitors, half-human cyborgs who are wired into the vessel’s weapons, engines and communications apparatus. There are also a few hundred of the Chapter’s serfs to attend to other duties” - Battlefleet Gothic space marines

yes a few hundred is a guard company’s worth of serfs at least.

25-50ish in support roles for their human brothers, about 25 human officers, and the rest are likely to be predominantly armament to protect the ship from boarding actions.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Basically it boils down to: Chapters are not meant to command standing armies of human troops. That's what Huron started doing during Badab isn't it? And we all saw where that went.

 

Sure, Astartes commanders may come to command non astartes elements in a temporary fashion (My go to example would be the 3rd war for Armageddon and Helsreach, where Helbrecht takes supreme command of the space war and all imperial fleet assets, while chaplain Grimaldus, leading a single squad of astartes then takes leadership of the defense of hive Helsreach. My point to all this is that it's all temporary, they don't retain control of the non astartes elements in any fashion)

 

Non astartes elements on the ground accompanying the astartes are indeed almost always servitors, because those are clearly fair game. Human chapter serfs, be they officers or thralls or what not, step in where servitors don't cut it. (Example I keep coming back to in my mind is the scene from AoD where clearly human sized individuals (and if I'm not mistaken, wearing some form of blood angels iconograpy, but I might be mistaken on that point) with lasguns defending the bridge of the blood angels vessels from a horde of genestealer cultists. They were all masked and faceless so they could have been some sort of combat servitors or thralls (where's the exact distinction on that anyway?), but the point still stands because there's clearly human officers at least on the bridge, the captain being one of the major characters.)

 

My take away is, humans crewing and manning certain elements certainly exists within chapters, and while they will fight to protect themselves, they aren't meant to see combat, and are certainly not units that will brought alongside the astartes to any combat engagements. If non astartes elements are brought, those are invariably servitors.

I agree the combat serfs aren’t brought into combat on foreign planets, but I’m pretty sure I recall the blood angels having serfs in combat roles in DoB