Would a "Chapter Serfs" unit make any sense?

[Azekai]

 

True they’re actually some of my favourite artworks especially the BT Templar one from 5th? They’re pretty much always servitors though if not always and very importantly not fighting, they’re always relic bearers or carrying arms for the Astartes and never organised units of warriors

 

the new Blood Angels artwork from the rulebook is another great example of servitors/Thralls arming them for war

we have actual lore not just random pictures that literally shows there are units of combat arms serfs…

 

Right. I don't know why this is even an issue.

 

It makes a lot of sense that someone should stick around to act as security while the very offensively minded space marines stage their assaults. I am glad it isn't just marines and servitors faffing around. Servitors would be trash at adapting to a shifting tactical situation and leaving behind a significant complement of rearguard marines on feels like they would be pulling punches.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

True they’re actually some of my favourite artworks especially the BT Templar one from 5th? They’re pretty much always servitors though if not always and very importantly not fighting, they’re always relic bearers or carrying arms for the Astartes and never organised units of warriors

 

the new Blood Angels artwork from the rulebook is another great example of servitors/Thralls arming them for war

we have actual lore not just random pictures that literally shows there are units of combat arms serfs…

Right. I don't know why this is even an issue.

 

It makes a lot of sense that someone should stick around to act as security while the very offensively minded space marines stage their assaults. I am glad it isn't just marines and servitors faffing around. Servitors would be trash at adapting to a shifting tactical situation and leaving behind a significant complement of rearguard marines on feels like they would be pulling punches.

especially considering most chapters were only around 1000 marines…

You’d never be able to send any significant numbers of marines any where without leaving your home world or feet completely undefended otherwise.

[phandaal]

 

 

 

True they’re actually some of my favourite artworks especially the BT Templar one from 5th? They’re pretty much always servitors though if not always and very importantly not fighting, they’re always relic bearers or carrying arms for the Astartes and never organised units of warriors

 

the new Blood Angels artwork from the rulebook is another great example of servitors/Thralls arming them for war

we have actual lore not just random pictures that literally shows there are units of combat arms serfs…

Right. I don't know why this is even an issue.

 

It makes a lot of sense that someone should stick around to act as security while the very offensively minded space marines stage their assaults. I am glad it isn't just marines and servitors faffing around. Servitors would be trash at adapting to a shifting tactical situation and leaving behind a significant complement of rearguard marines on feels like they would be pulling punches.

especially considering most chapters were only around 1000 marines…

You’d never be able to send any significant numbers of marines any where without leaving your home world or feet completely undefended otherwise.

 

 

Space Marine serfs do help defend their fortress monasteries and ships, but the OP seems more about whether there could be a unit of serfs that Marines would take into battle as part of their regular formations.

 

The latter is not a thing. Space Marines might have Imperial Guard or PDF units under their command in a warzone or in their usual area of operations, but that is something different than Chapter serfs.

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

True they’re actually some of my favourite artworks especially the BT Templar one from 5th? They’re pretty much always servitors though if not always and very importantly not fighting, they’re always relic bearers or carrying arms for the Astartes and never organised units of warriors

 

the new Blood Angels artwork from the rulebook is another great example of servitors/Thralls arming them for war

we have actual lore not just random pictures that literally shows there are units of combat arms serfs…

I feel like you’re specifically not reading my original comments on the thread where I gave numerous reasons why Astartes don’t have formations of human thralls joining them on missions as organised combat units and they only specifically use combat servitors for these tasks

 

I also never said thralls can’t defend fortress monastery’s or ships when boarded they can and do but they pretty much NEVER go to war with the Astartes as organised combat units on missions

 

Please as you say you can show me this lore?

 

Edit spelling

Edited February 22, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

 

True they’re actually some of my favourite artworks especially the BT Templar one from 5th? They’re pretty much always servitors though if not always and very importantly not fighting, they’re always relic bearers or carrying arms for the Astartes and never organised units of warriors

 

the new Blood Angels artwork from the rulebook is another great example of servitors/Thralls arming them for war

we have actual lore not just random pictures that literally shows there are units of combat arms serfs…

Right. I don't know why this is even an issue.

 

It makes a lot of sense that someone should stick around to act as security while the very offensively minded space marines stage their assaults. I am glad it isn't just marines and servitors faffing around. Servitors would be trash at adapting to a shifting tactical situation and leaving behind a significant complement of rearguard marines on feels like they would be pulling punches.

especially considering most chapters were only around 1000 marines…

You’d never be able to send any significant numbers of marines any where without leaving your home world or feet completely undefended otherwise.

Space Marine serfs do help defend their fortress monasteries and ships, but the OP seems more about whether there could be a unit of serfs that Marines would take into battle as part of their regular formations.

 

The latter is not a thing. Space Marines might have Imperial Guard or PDF units under their command in a warzone or in their usual area of operations, but that is something different than Chapter serfs.

Yet there are people here denying that there are combat serfs, and all they do is carry gear around.

 

I agree serfs being used offensively is not really a thing supported by fluff.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

True they’re actually some of my favourite artworks especially the BT Templar one from 5th? They’re pretty much always servitors though if not always and very importantly not fighting, they’re always relic bearers or carrying arms for the Astartes and never organised units of warriors

 

the new Blood Angels artwork from the rulebook is another great example of servitors/Thralls arming them for war

we have actual lore not just random pictures that literally shows there are units of combat arms serfs…

I feel like you’re specifically not reading my original comments on the thread where I gave numerous reasons why Astartes don’t have formations of human thralls joining them on missions as organised combat units and they only specifically use combat servitors for these tasks

 

I also never said thralls can’t defend fortress monastery’s or ships when boarded they can and do but they NEVER go to war with the Astartes as organised combat units on missions

 

Please as you say you can show me this lore?

defending ships and chapter installations is going to war…maybe this is a disconnect between people who have been in active combat zones and those who haven’t, but when you are specifically trained to fight, and you are specifically geared for combat, you are a branch of combat arms.

[Brother Tyler]

The issue isn't whether or not Chapters have serfs/thralls/whatever that are capable of fighting. The issue is in when and how those serfs/thralls/whatever would be employed in combat operations. As a general rule, a Chapter's serfs/thralls/whatever would primarily be limited to protecting the Chapter's assets - defending against boarding actions and protecting the Chapter's fortress-monastery/Chapter keeps/orbital defense platforms/whatever. These non-Astartes members of the Chapter generally aren't used in most of the combat operations that the Chapter participates in, especially in offensive operations. One could easily envision situations in which a Space Marine force establishes some sort of lodgment with logistical support (e.g., Techmarine and Apothecary facilities) and serfs/thralls/whatever might be involved in those operations. There might even be exceptional cases where a Chapter's serfs/thralls/whatever are forced into non-standard operations. An example of this would be when the Raptors Chapter crashed on Jemadal and was forced to survive on that death world. Naturally, all Raptors Space Marines and their mortal servants were involved.

 

In a setting where almost anything and everything can happen, however, especially considering the span of time that the setting covers, there have almost certainly been occasions on which the Adeptus Astartes may have been forced to employ their serfs/thralls/whatever in combat operations.

 

The issue, then, becomes two-fold:

• First, what rules would be used to represent them? Rules also covers any type of limitations that might be imposed on quantities.
• In what kinds of scenarios could you see them being used? Are there special scenarios that might cover them? Or would they simply be adapted into normal play?

With Chapters that utilize daemon weapons, possess their members with daemonic entities, having psykers as leaders, etc., there's a lot of room in the setting for exceptions to be represented in game play, even if only on limited occasions.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The issue isn't whether or not Chapters have serfs/thralls/whatever that are capable of fighting. The issue is in when and how those serfs/thralls/whatever would be employed in combat operations. As a general rule, a Chapter's serfs/thralls/whatever would primarily be limited to protecting the Chapter's assets - defending against boarding actions and protecting the Chapter's fortress-monastery/Chapter keeps/orbital defense platforms/whatever. These non-Astartes members of the Chapter generally aren't used in most of the combat operations that the Chapter participates in, especially in offensive operations. One could easily envision situations in which a Space Marine force establishes some sort of lodgment with logistical support (e.g., Techmarine and Apothecary facilities) and serfs/thralls/whatever might be involved in those operations. There might even be exceptional cases where a Chapter's serfs/thralls/whatever are forced into non-standard operations. An example of this would be when the Raptors Chapter crashed on Jemadal and was forced to survive on that death world. Naturally, all Raptors Space Marines and their mortal servants were involved.

 

In a setting where almost anything and everything can happen, however, especially considering the span of time that the setting covers, there have almost certainly been occasions on which the Adeptus Astartes may have been forced to employ their serfs/thralls/whatever in combat operations.

 

The issue, then, becomes two-fold:

• First, what rules would be used to represent them? Rules also covers any type of limitations that might be imposed on quantities.
• In what kinds of scenarios could you see them being used? Are there special scenarios that might cover them? Or would they simply be adapted into normal play?

With Chapters that utilize daemon weapons, possess their members with daemonic entities, having psykers as leaders, etc., there's a lot of room in the setting for exceptions to be represented in game play, even if only on limited occasions.

I agree, but I don’t think special models and special units. Scions/Kasrkins in an imperial soup is plenty fine for representing those fairly rare occasions that combat serfs would be involved.

[Dracos]

Maybe just define them as a Garrison unit as opposed to a unit that is Deployed?

[phandaal]

I agree, but I don’t think special models and special units. Scions/Kasrkins in an imperial soup is plenty fine for representing those fairly rare occasions that combat serfs would be involved.

Yeah, this is really only something that should be happening in narrative games, in which case it would be fine using existing Guard rules to "count as" serfs.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I agree, but I don’t think special models and special units. Scions/Kasrkins in an imperial soup is plenty fine for representing those fairly rare occasions that combat serfs would be involved.

Yeah, this is really only something that should be happening in narrative games, in which case it would be fine using existing Guard rules to "count as" serfs.

yep which is more or less what I said in my first reply to this topic.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Well well well...

 

I'm tempted to just go ahead and let this thread wither and die as it's fallen a ways down the topics list.

 

BUT I also believe in owning my mistakes.

 

It turns out my ENTIRE purpose for creating this thread was based on a misunderstanding on my part.

 

I don't know how, but somewhere along the line I came to believe that Black Templars Neophytes were a two-wound model. And since I figured their statline would form the basis of an eventual Primaris Scout unit, I thought the resulting increase in points to reflect this would leave a void in the ranks of any chapter that didn't somehow grandfather in Firstborn one-wound Scouts (assuming those didn't get Legended out of "organized play" games, which they probably would anyway).

 

And with objective covering and map control being more important these days, I therefore mused about a new "Chapter Serfs" unit taking the place of the current one-wound Scouts to some extent.

 

PROBLEM: The Black Templars Neophytes are STILL one-wound models.

 

I don't know how I managed to arrive at the conclusion that they'd been upgraded to two wounds. I must have just read the datasheet too fast and looked at either the Initiate or Sword Brother's statline when I was checking on the Neophyte's wounds. Or it's possible that I read some bad intel prior to seeing the actual datasheet and I just never bothered to verify.

 

So frankly this little thought experiment of mine was completely unnecessary, since as I said before, I would expect a Primaris Scout unit (and I still DO think those are coming sooner rather than later) to share the BT Neophytes' statline. And with said statline still holding them to a single wound, my entire thesis for suggesting a Chapter Serf unit is completely invalid.

 

I guess in the end this is a good thing - less plastic to buy and one less unit to try to work into the roster.

 

Sorry for the confusion. Wish I could promise it won't happen again.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Primaris Neophytes have two wounds each - mebbe you saw that stat line.

[MegaVolt87]

Well well well...

 

I'm tempted to just go ahead and let this thread wither and die as it's fallen a ways down the topics list.

 

BUT I also believe in owning my mistakes.

 

It turns out my ENTIRE purpose for creating this thread was based on a misunderstanding on my part.

 

I don't know how, but somewhere along the line I came to believe that Black Templars Neophytes were a two-wound model. And since I figured their statline would form the basis of an eventual Primaris Scout unit, I thought the resulting increase in points to reflect this would leave a void in the ranks of any chapter that didn't somehow grandfather in Firstborn one-wound Scouts (assuming those didn't get Legended out of "organized play" games, which they probably would anyway).

 

And with objective covering and map control being more important these days, I therefore mused about a new "Chapter Serfs" unit taking the place of the current one-wound Scouts to some extent.

 

PROBLEM: The Black Templars Neophytes are STILL one-wound models.

 

I don't know how I managed to arrive at the conclusion that they'd been upgraded to two wounds. I must have just read the datasheet too fast and looked at either the Initiate or Sword Brother's statline when I was checking on the Neophyte's wounds. Or it's possible that I read some bad intel prior to seeing the actual datasheet and I just never bothered to verify.

 

So frankly this little thought experiment of mine was completely unnecessary, since as I said before, I would expect a Primaris Scout unit (and I still DO think those are coming sooner rather than later) to share the BT Neophytes' statline. And with said statline still holding them to a single wound, my entire thesis for suggesting a Chapter Serf unit is completely invalid.

 

I guess in the end this is a good thing - less plastic to buy and one less unit to try to work into the roster.

 

Sorry for the confusion. Wish I could promise it won't happen again.

 

Additional problem- GW don't want SM loyalists to have cheap ob sec by design, scouts moved to elites for a reason. Maybe what is needed is a IG detachment that has a heavy CP tax that won't break SM doctrines when souped together, to reflect IG regiments from places such as Ultramar etc. That makes more sense than a serf unit taking the spot of moved scouts, cultists similarity etc. 

[N1SB]

Sorry for the late reply...and I myself might be misunderstanding the topic.  I think it makes sense for Chapter Serfs to make up a unit because there's precedent.

 

I say this because there's a case where Chapter Serfs served on the actual battlefield (or just barely off-screen), and it's almost exactly an example of what our Frateri described here.  It was in the novel Spear of the Emperor by our own ADB.  There, the Mentors Chapter had a higher-ranking class of Serfs called Helots.

 

They served as the support staff inside a Damocles Command Rhino, you know that HQ Rhino that gives the buff?  3 highly trained of these Helot Serfs would analyse the battlefield and continuously vox their Marine master, feeding him targets or coordinating with other Imperial forces.  It'd be quite annoying to us mere mortals to have 3 people constantly nattering at us, but his Marine brain could parallel-process all that information and he'd act upon it.  This arrangement reminded me of how in TV broadcasting, they have people inside a TV station truck directing the star reporter or the cameraman.  They even controlled Servo-skull drones to attack.

 

It's an exception that exactly proves the rule, though.  These Helot Serfs were in a support role and, rather than inside a ship or fortress-monastery, a Command Rhino...but that's about as precisely as same difference as you can get.  Moreover, since the Mentors were famous for coordinating with non-Astartes Imperial forces (to mentor them), this might be unique to their Chapter even though in the novel it seemed like the most natural thing in the world.

 

Thus, even with this precedent in mind...yes, it makes absolute perfect sense for a Chapter Serfs unit, because they WERE the Damocles Command Rhino.  However, they weren't their own Infantry Troops unit per se.  However, would...say...a custom Firstborn Chapter decimated by the Great Rift, holding out for their Primaris/Torchbearer Fleet reinforcements put their Serfs into battle in the meantime?  I'd say, yes, in fact, it'd make less sense if they didn't imho.

 

Now, outside of that Damocles Command Rhino example, how would I represent this for a themed army for the above reduced Chapter?

 

 

I know the whole Combat Doctrines concept is predicated on a "Marines-only" force with Servitors managing to not get in the way, but maybe ONE squad of mortals (as opposed to a whole battalion of Guard troops) could also learn to stay out from underfoot without destroying the spirit of those rules.

 

Mechanics-wise, I think using Servitors as a count-as was a really good fit for Chapter Serfs, imho.  They're 1-wounded mortals, got good gear by association with Astartes like Heavy Bolters and Servo-arms could represent some sort of Power Tool (because, well, they are exactly that), but they're not good at combat because they're just Serfs, they're only fighting in a pinch, thus their low WS/BS values.  And they don't get in the way of the Marines Combat Doctrines, nor do you have to draw from another Codex.

 

Now, how would you use those in an actual game?  They're a cheap, home objective-sitting (not securing...they're only Serfs) unit of 4.  I've been thinking about this as my local meta quite likes 25 Power Level Crusade Narrative Play games.  Sometimes it's hard to use all 25 PL and you get like 2 or 3 leftover, which is perfect for something like this.  Makes perfect sense for the Serfs to be kept in back.

 

However, Imperials like to operate in multiples of 5, so I had the following idea: you know how I said the 4 Serf/itors are guarding the home objective?  The home objective is another model you put on the table (like your own objective marker) that's the Senior Serf.  The 4 other Serfs with Heavy Bolters and Servor-arms are just trying to protect him while he's doing some important yet mundane Serf-task, like voxing the orbiting Marine cruiser for support with coordinates through all the enemy scrap code interference while the actual Astartes on the field are focusing on fighting.

 

That's a really fun modeling project right there.  I'd probably kitbash a Guardsmen Heavy Weapons team kit with the Marine Scouts.  It's not OP, yet also not pointless; they aren't the cheap ObSec unit you want them to be in place of Cultists, but they still bring 2 Heavy Bolters while sitting the home objective.  They exist to make especially Primaris look more impressive, because they offer a frame of reference to how big they are.

 

 

BUT I also believe in owning my mistakes.

 

It turns out my ENTIRE purpose for creating this thread was based on a misunderstanding on my part.

 

For what it's worth...I didn't see it as a mistake, I thought this thread is leading to some really fun ideas.

[Doghouse]

Astartes ships are crewed by regular humans so yes. Just base the army as being a unit stationed on a Strike craft and job done.

 

Given the events of the rift and Chapters effectively fighting last stands without knowledge of the Primaris coming to their aid it's incredibly plausible that an under strength Chapter could have made Serf units official members of the Chapter or had the remaining Astartes leading human squads.

 

I seem to recall Ultramarine worlds using PDF troops as well back in the day.

[XeonDragon]

Having read the entire thread, my humble contribution is this. First, I think it is reasonably safe to say that Astartes have combat-trained humans on their spacecraft and potentially also guarding their fortress monasteries (for those chapters who have them). Second, I think it is also reasonably safe to say that some chapters may have a close relationship with the PDF of their "home" planet or a IG regiment stationed there, again, depending on the chapter.

 

Personally, given the wide variety of recruitment methods between chapters I think it might be plausible that at least some chapters have a pool of normal human warriors which perform a range of functions for the chapter, from guard duty, manning their ships and potentially also as a recruitment pool (maybe one of many?). In those cases, I can definitely see a pathway to becoming a space marine for that chapter as follows: join up local PDF/IG at very young age =>  do well in training and local combat operations => get stationed to ship/guard duty => perform well => invited to train for the SM 'reserve auxiliary detachment'  => perform well along side SM in certain missions => invited to start process of becoming a scout => become full fledged Astartes. 

 

So basically I can see a pathway where a SM chapter maintains a close relationship with local forces, and from that draws small active battle force of young highly skilled normal humans which is then deployed occasionally with the chapter and, in turn, from that the chapter recruits initiates who go onto become scouts.  

 

So yeah, I can see having a cheap infantry unit for SM as a thing. If it were to become a thing in the game, then elsewhere in the thread there are so good ideas such as making the ability to take such units a CP tax, basing them on IG units and/or limiting the number of such units (maybe 1:1 with "normal" SM troop choices or a limit of 1 such squad per roster?). If it were to become a thing, and were up to me, I'd basically make them slightly more expensive IG units with the option (at points cost) of taking some Astartes weapons (including bolt guns), better leadership to reflect that such units are, (compared to regular PDF/IF) are already 'veterans' and fairly elite. 

 

I would see them as rare, as the age limits on gene-seed implantation, mortality rate and "turn over" would keep overall numbers relatively low. 

 

Now, all that said, I think there are some SM chapters for which such unit make zero sense, e.g. space wolves. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by XeonDragon

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Space Wolves actually have Aettguard in the Black Library books they're referred to as kaerls. They appear to be assigned to each company. That said I don't think they're used offensively, mainly crew the ships, and help defend the fang when the TSons invade. 

 

I don't think they should gain entries in the marine books though. I think the guard codex does a good job representing them, and really think marines shouldn't have access to unit like that without a disadvantage.  

Edited March 7, 2022 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Gamiel]

Space Wolves actually have Aettguard in the Black Library books they're referred to as kaerls. They appear to be assigned to each company. That said I don't think they're used offensively, mainly crew the ships, and help defend the fang when the TSons invade. 

They are also used to man at least some of the defence stations along the boarders of Asaheim in The Wolftime