The Most Important Thing I Feel That 40k Forgot

[Dark Shepherd]

This is old man yells at cloud level stuff but WD battle reports stopped being fun for me when they switched to photos of the battlefied instead of simple graphics to chart a turns action

[phandaal]

Did a quick scan through White Dwarf back issues - the series was called "A Tale of Four Gamers" and started with issue 218 in February 1998.

 

Paul Sawyer (aka "Fat Bloke") was the one who saved a little extra for a bacon roll.

 

Good times. Definitely going to give those reports a read through later!

[Firedrake Cordova]

If anyone says GW have forgotten the Rule of Having Fun, take a look at the batreps on WH+ ... As for levity in the 40k universe, has anyone seen Orks over the last couple of years? These guys are brilliant. The fiction that Black Library is putting out is top stuff. Nate Crowley and Mike Brooks have written amazing stories that make me laugh out loud ... For the people who are complaining, are you ignoring all this stuff, or do you just want a moan about something?

Maybe we haven't seen them? :) Not everyone has a Warhammer+ subscription, or reads Black Library novels (or is up-to-date on their reading, etc)

 

Personally, I would rather lose a close game than crush my opponent. Massive victories/defeats are not fun for either side.

This is so true!

Edited February 28, 2022 by Firedrake Cordova

[ThePenitentOne]

I watched Ireland steamroll Italy at the rugby the other day due to an arcane rules interpretation. No-one seemed very happy with the result, the fans, the players, neither team. I'd love GW to have something like the citadel journal where they could really showcase the fun side of the hobby. That said, I'd say it was a certain cohort of the hobby that cares about winning over fun, and that cohort is the one that inhabits a lot of stores, but that the hobby in general seems to be moving towards this more old school rp influence.

 

B&C is my Citadel Journal.

 

You guys tell the cool narrative stories that GW doesn't or can't. You guys wrote the KT2018 Rogue Trader Unchained rules. You guys did your best to resurrect Squats an Rogue Trader (hello Slave to Darkness!); you guys build 40k scale Imperator Titans (hello Black Adder). And you do so much more.

 

This is the place where, if it doesn't exist, we build it. And while I love Citadel Journal, I think B&C is actually more flexible, versatile and responsive to community and individual needs.

 

Shine on you crazy diamond!

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Does anyone remember the Grey Knights/Necron allies era?  I still shake my head when I think of people doing this!

 

If the lore, setting and narrative are all things that don't concern a player of 40k to the degree that they will just mash any factions or spam any number of the same unit to win, there are  many activities that are better suited to their interests, principally video games, M:TG, or literally anything where all of the creative and narrative aspects are taken care of for you and your only job as a player is to find the optimal way to win. 

 

If someone is going to bring something like a Grey Knights/Necrons army to the table and be fine with it, it's like we're literally not even engaging in the same activity, and it feels like GW can't really successfully make a game that is for both competitive and narrative players. 

 

There are literally two different hobbies going on here; a game based around shared narrative experience and artistic creativity, and a competitive game where the creative side is not a factor whatsoever, and where you field Grey Knights and Necrons as allies if you can win with it. 

[Jukkiz]

simplicity.

Rules should be easy to learn and understand, not bloated to warp adn back with stragemens and tactics and cardgames

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

 

My favorite White Dwarf battle report series was this thing they did years ago where they would buy and paint a unit or two on a limited budget each month, then add those forces to their armies for each new report.

 

I remember one issue the guy had some extra cash left over so he got a bacon roll on the way back to the office. It was great - just some guys knocking together some lists for fun in real time.

 

Yeah the original Tale of Four Gamers, that was fun, the current version doesnt quite hit the same mark for some reason. Might be because its based on x amount of power level each month and not cash value. I think its much more interesting seeing people build an army to a budget each month like every one of us here and not just increase by a set amount with minis they probably got for free or heavily discounted. 

[Slave to Darkness]

 

I watched Ireland steamroll Italy at the rugby the other day due to an arcane rules interpretation. No-one seemed very happy with the result, the fans, the players, neither team. I'd love GW to have something like the citadel journal where they could really showcase the fun side of the hobby. That said, I'd say it was a certain cohort of the hobby that cares about winning over fun, and that cohort is the one that inhabits a lot of stores, but that the hobby in general seems to be moving towards this more old school rp influence.

 

B&C is my Citadel Journal.

 

 You guys did your best to resurrect Squats an Rogue Trader (hello Slave to Darkness!); 

 

Hey your just as valuable here, your love for the crusade way to play was the reason I even gave it a look, and crusade is the only reason I give a crap about 9th ed 40k, so your the reason why Im actually playing the current edition, I noped out in 8th to jump back to 1st/2nd ed. 

 

Oh the Squats are still going on, just got distracted with moving house, other projects etc. They will be back soon, I still need Exo Armoured Hearthguard and more bikes, and I still have my Khorne Squats that I actually need to start, I only have2. :lol: 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Slave to Darkness

[Tiger9gamer]

yea, It feels like something is missing isn't it? I don't know if it's just me, but there is a lot of bad-feels in 40k 9th. There are times where I have close and fun games, but other times I feel like a jerk, even when I am playing a unit "Right". 

For example, I am playing a big squad Black templar jumpack VVets with a marshal and a chaplain there. I need to be super careful with movement, but they hit like a truck if everything goes right. I still feel like a jerk when said unit just disintigrates a unit, but I also feel bad when they get blasted off the board.

I don't know exactly what's wrong either. It could be my opponents, or it could just be the rules. something feels off, and at times it feels like there is no fun either way.

[Plague _Lord]

Did a quick scan through White Dwarf back issues - the series was called "A Tale of Four Gamers" and started with issue 218 in February 1998.

 

Paul Sawyer (aka "Fat Bloke") was the one who saved a little extra for a bacon roll.

 

Good times. Definitely going to give those reports a read through later!

 

Ahh the good ol stuff. Have a few old white dwarfs' with these stored int he attic somewhere. BTW look at how WD has changed over the years and you can see the slow decline of GW's soul.

[phandaal]

 

Did a quick scan through White Dwarf back issues - the series was called "A Tale of Four Gamers" and started with issue 218 in February 1998.

 

Paul Sawyer (aka "Fat Bloke") was the one who saved a little extra for a bacon roll.

 

Good times. Definitely going to give those reports a read through later!

 

Ahh the good ol stuff. Have a few old white dwarfs' with these stored int he attic somewhere. BTW look at how WD has changed over the years and you can see the slow decline of GW's soul.

 

 

In that series, Paul Sawyer was ragging on plastic minis for all looking the same. There is no way anything like that would fly today.

 

There was also plenty of humor that would not fit in with the way Games Workshop presents themselves nowadays.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

Did a quick scan through White Dwarf back issues - the series was called "A Tale of Four Gamers" and started with issue 218 in February 1998.

 

Paul Sawyer (aka "Fat Bloke") was the one who saved a little extra for a bacon roll.

 

Good times. Definitely going to give those reports a read through later!

 

Ahh the good ol stuff. Have a few old white dwarfs' with these stored int he attic somewhere. BTW look at how WD has changed over the years and you can see the slow decline of GW's soul.

 

 

In that series, Paul Sawyer was ragging on plastic minis for all looking the same. There is no way anything like that would fly today.

 

There was also plenty of humor that would not fit in with the way Games Workshop presents themselves nowadays.

 

 

The humour shifted from awkward derpness/ in jokes to hello fellow kids, the people and personalities were pushed away and the products have 100% of the spotlight now. 

[Scribe]

Does anyone remember the Grey Knights/Necron allies era?  I still shake my head when I think of people doing this!

 

If the lore, setting and narrative are all things that don't concern a player of 40k to the degree that they will just mash any factions or spam any number of the same unit to win, there are  many activities that are better suited to their interests, principally video games, M:TG, or literally anything where all of the creative and narrative aspects are taken care of for you and your only job as a player is to find the optimal way to win. 

 

If someone is going to bring something like a Grey Knights/Necrons army to the table and be fine with it, it's like we're literally not even engaging in the same activity, and it feels like GW can't really successfully make a game that is for both competitive and narrative players. 

 

There are literally two different hobbies going on here; a game based around shared narrative experience and artistic creativity, and a competitive game where the creative side is not a factor whatsoever, and where you field Grey Knights and Necrons as allies if you can win with it. 

 

I know I've said it before, but this is exactly it, on several points.

 

40K works better (to me) as a game where you are playing with someone of a shared mind, a shared perspective on how 'the game should be played.' The reasons for this are many.

 

1. Its EXPENSIVE. Enough said.

2. Its TIME CONSUMING. Not just playing. Prep! You need to pack up stuff, you need to travel, you need to set up, you need to build, and paint. All of that is before you even roll dice!

3. There is a shared universe, a canon (despite what GW says) that matters to people.

 

If people are coming into the game with wildly different perspectives, its going to actively damage the experience for one or even both players.

 

As I've noted, this is not a game of MTG, where you can win or lose in 10 minutes, and shuffle up again. The experience, the prep work, we are talking thousands of dollars, and hours upon hours of time invested. MTG (which I used to play competitively) is...minutes. Sure the cost can be real but it doesnt have to be, and the feeling of losing a game in 10 minutes, is far less impactful than watching your army lovingly crafted and built, be wiped off the table over an hour.

 

There is a way to get to some kind of middle ground, but this overly complex monstrosity they have built the game into...is not it.

[ThePenitentOne]

 

Hey your just as valuable here, your love for the crusade way to play was the reason I even gave it a look, and crusade is the only reason I give a crap about 9th ed 40k, so your the reason why Im actually playing the current edition, I noped out in 8th to jump back to 1st/2nd ed. 

 

 

Oh the Squats are still going on, just got distracted with moving house, other projects etc. They will be back soon, I still need Exo Armoured Hearthguard and more bikes, and I still have my Khorne Squats that I actually need to start, I only have2.

 

 

This post made my day. And I haven't forgotten that I've got some legacy metal that I'm planning on painting up out of respect for your retrocool 40k... I've just been really obsessed with painting things I need to get playing campaign games... I'm totally on track to finish my Thresher fire team for my March challenge, and probably make a lot of progress on my Wyches for Anger and Arrogance by April 1st, if not finish them completely.

 

That would give me full Kill Teams of Stealers vs. Threshers. Then I'll need a month to go down the Druhkari/ CWE KT rabbit hole. (Here's a teaser: Veth Rayden)

 

So it will likely be May before I get to the HR Giger Chaos Dread and the metal skully noise marines, but they are still coming brother.

 

 

 

BTW look at how WD has changed over the years and you can see the slow decline of GW's soul.

 

 

Decline is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Wyrmblade and Ksons Kill Teams? Kick a$$.

Althansar Craftworld? Loved it.

Torchbearer Fleet Crusade rules? Literally worth more to me than any Mission Pack I've purchased.

 

I did find that the most recent Tale of Four Gamers was disappointing- especially since it was Crusade and that's my jam. But that had more to do with some of them hardly being able to play due to Covid countermeasures. And even then there were parts of it I loved- the Return to Sanctuary 101 batrep... And that outrageous Grot army!

 

The one thing I've seen from White Dwarf that I've hated? The Fallen list they copy pasted.

 

But for the most part, I think WD is getting a lot of things right. I dig on most of the Flashpoints too; the most recent ones especially, because they are War of Faith Crusade rules, and Sisters are my primary army. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by ThePenitentOne

[Slave to Darkness]

Giger Dread?!?! You lucky : I have been after one of those for ages. :'( Id literally sell my body and my neighbours children for one of those. 

Seriously, if anyone knows of someone getting rid of one let me know... My life (and 1st ed chaos army) depends on it. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Slave to Darkness

[Plague _Lord]

 

 

Hey your just as valuable here, your love for the crusade way to play was the reason I even gave it a look, and crusade is the only reason I give a crap about 9th ed 40k, so your the reason why Im actually playing the current edition, I noped out in 8th to jump back to 1st/2nd ed. 

 

 

Oh the Squats are still going on, just got distracted with moving house, other projects etc. They will be back soon, I still need Exo Armoured Hearthguard and more bikes, and I still have my Khorne Squats that I actually need to start, I only have2.

 

 

This post made my day. And I haven't forgotten that I've got some legacy metal that I'm planning on painting up out of respect for your retrocool 40k... I've just been really obsessed with painting things I need to get playing campaign games... I'm totally on track to finish my Thresher fire team for my March challenge, and probably make a lot of progress on my Wyches for Anger and Arrogance by April 1st, if not finish them completely.

 

That would give me full Kill Teams of Stealers vs. Threshers. Then I'll need a month to go down the Druhkari/ CWE KT rabbit hole. (Here's a teaser: Veth Rayden)

 

So it will likely be May before I get to the HR Giger Chaos Dread and the metal skully noise marines, but they are still coming brother.

 

 

 

BTW look at how WD has changed over the years and you can see the slow decline of GW's soul.

 

 

Decline is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Wyrmblade and Ksons Kill Teams? Kick a$$.

Althansar Craftworld? Loved it.

Torchbearer Fleet Crusade rules? Literally worth more to me than any Mission Pack I've purchased.

 

I did find that the most recent Tale of Four Gamers was disappointing- especially since it was Crusade and that's my jam. But that had more to do with some of them hardly being able to play due to Covid countermeasures. And even then there were parts of it I loved- the Return to Sanctuary 101 batrep... And that outrageous Grot army!

 

The one thing I've seen from White Dwarf that I've hated? The Fallen list they copy pasted.

 

But for the most part, I think WD is getting a lot of things right. I dig on most of the Flashpoints too; the most recent ones especially, because they are War of Faith Crusade rules, and Sisters are my primary army. 

 

 

I must admit that I haven't read a new WD in years, but when I stopped, I did it because it became so ... "shiny". Everything was bright and happy and there was an endless tide of ads. Back in the day WD was more gritty and down to earth - that's what I mean by soul. For me WD has become a corporate advertisement leaflet.

 

And how I missed the graphic overhead shots in battle reports with unit markers!

 

 

As for the problem of the game - it depends how you play. I used to play with my closest friends so that the outcome of game didn't matter as we would have fun anyway and play for the narrative. Nowadays i play pickup games in a competitive environment where I want to have a solid gaming experience while also playing out the thematics in my head. Nowadays I'm not having a sleepover at my mates where we are also doing other things - nowadays I have to drive 30mins in traffic after work (so I'm pissed off) to the gaming club, unpack my minis, set up the board, have the game and chat a bit and drive back home. All of this takes time and if I do all that only to get thrashed without even standing a chance I fail to have fun. I mean even without playing it takes around 2 hours just to get to the club and set it alll up - also packing and unpacking at home. If all this set up doesn't give me around 2 hours of enjoyable playing time then I will be just unhappy. I don't have to win, but when I'm playing I want it to be balanced and to stand a chance instead of packing up after an hour of getting pummeled.

 

Sure it depend who you play with but for a lot of us competitive pickup games are the only gaming experience we have the means/time for so it would be nice to be able to have fun in doing so.

[phandaal]

If all this set up doesn't give me around 2 hours of enjoyable playing time then I will be just unhappy. I don't have to win, but when I'm playing I want it to be balanced and to stand a chance instead of packing up after an hour of getting pummeled.

 

 

This is probably what annoys me the most about the way things are advertised by GW. It comes across like something from a child or "that guy" who does not understand that his opponent is not a target dummy that materialized in front of him at the table.

 

When I read something about how this new rule will let your army obliterate the opponent or how it does so much damage that it deletes everything in a single round, I see an article telling me that all the time and energy spent getting ready for a game is going to be wasted.

 

Comes across as tone deaf and short sighted.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

Comes across as tone deaf 

 

Guess my old bassist works for GW then lol. That guy couldnt carry a pint let alone a tune. 

[Claws and Effect]

40k of late has absolutely forgotten about the "fun comes first, winning is secondary" thing of late. At least in my opinion.

 

Codex power creep has been getting out of hand for a while now. I looked at the Tau railgun preview and realized that the rules team has completely disregarded the fact that there is another player whose units will be on the receiving end of that weapon (same can be said of MANY of the things we've seen lately, I'm focusing on that because it's freshest in my mind at the moment). As soon as I saw that I immediately predicted that we will start seeing 3 Hammerhead + Longstrike Tau lists to maximize how many of those guns they can have. Great time for the Tau player. Not so much for the person on the other side of the table. A weapon that deals that much guaranteed damage and almost completely disallows saves of any kind just isn't fun to play against. That's just one example. 

 

If people having fun was their goal, the gap between the best performing factions and the worst would be a lot closer than it is.  

 

Unfortunately, GW has realized codex power creep is beneficial to their profit margin. When hardcore tournament players buy whole new armies all at once to keep up with the creep their revenue goes up more than it would if those armies were more balanced relative to each other. Relatively balanced factions would mean those hardcore tournament guys would be more likely to stick with one or two factions they like the playstyle of instead of army hopping every 6 months. And since GWs shareholders are undoubtedly happy with the state of things it seems unlikely to change unless there is a mass exodus of players and their revenue takes a hit. 

 

It kind of makes me a little sad, to be honest. I love the universe the game is set in, I greatly enjoy reading the stories that take place in it. But it's been a while since I could honestly say I enjoy playing the game that drew me into the universe in the first place back in 1994. In my experience the toxicity of the playerbase has risen on average the last few years. It was always there to an extent, but it's been getting worse lately. I'm seeing a lot more people who don't care in the slightest if the person they are playing with is having fun. They happily mudhole stomp them with a netlist and make fun of them while they are doing it. And that's not the game I remember from my youth.