Solo or Cooperative 40K Zombies Mod work in progress.

[Warhead01]

Hello!

Some years ago my friends were playing some kind of crazy Zombies game, a sort of Halloween game. As I understand it they did this several times. I was never able to attend but had begun to come up with rules for how I would run such a game. 
After the return of my old death Guard army and reading the cooperative play thread in Amicus.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373215-who-here-plays-40k-cooperatively/

 

I found myself really thinking more and more about a Zombies for 40K mod. In only a few days I have come up with about 8 or 9 pages of rule for this Zombies mod. It just seemed to happen. 
 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/132msU1aieeaYV-PTlDKSyXkecXDRKuukgo_n6opicpQ/edit?usp=sharing


If anyone feels like giving it a read and leaving me their thoughts about what I have so far I would be glad to read them. 
I have never written a game before and I feel like this is almost more of a game than a mod on 40K. It's not reinventing the wheel but it may be a really fun time. which is the whole point. What i don't know is, have I presented it in a way that is easy to understand, is it orderly and how could I change what I have written to make it more orderly from a readers point of view.  I am worried it might come off as gibberish. 

I've made some rules changes to what players can do during their turn or activation, like charging instead of moving in the movement phase. I've changed shooting, blast weapons and flame weapons  a little to help keep a game with this many models moving. I've attempted to open up options for the players, they might play a hero or unit from any codex between 3rd and 7th edition but I am hopeful I can make some small adjustments to include up to 9th edition options for the players. I've been thinking about Movie Marines from White Dwarf issue 300 when designing what I have so far but I realize more adjustments will be needed to smooth things out. Oh, and for this first attempt, including my silly stratagems I have only had space Marines in mind. As I say, I am also wanting to open this up to more than just Space marines in the long run. 

I realize my missions will need a graphic or two for deployment zones and an explanation via pictures of setting up objectives and maybe more I will be getting to that when I am able. Maybe over this coming weekend.

I have some ideas I really like for how I want this game to be presented. I imagine a small rules packet and mission briefing. On the mission briefing along with all the usual things needed to play and maybe win a game will be stats for the Zombies, zombie stratagems, stratagems for the players picked out for that mission and an events table for any changing conditions on the ground during the game.   Every player will play both their model or models and the zombies to keep everyone engaged.  

I am hopeful that I will be able to have a first play test in two weeks when my friend drops by. 

And with that I'll pass this off to you. Thankyou for any input and constructive criticism and ideas.

 

[Antarius]

I really like the general idea (some of my best gaming memories are actually co-op zombie games; usually based on the old "Hive of the Living Dead" Necromunda scenario) and I think there are some fun ideas in there.

Unfortunately, I also think it's a little bit too loosely defined to really give specific feedback on, at the moment. I understand the idea of wanting to allow for all editions of 40K, but as a reader I find it difficult to form a coherent idea of how the ruleset works, when so many of the entries have so many qualifiers.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think you need to pick one (or two) editions and stick with them, to avoid bloat and mental overload for your readers. In their present form, I can't really plomp down models on a table and test out your ideas, which I assume is the goal.

I also think you need to cut down on the word count and "it could be either this, or this, or that" in your paragraphs. Assume I am very stupid when you explain your rules and you will probably a) be right and b) end up explaining your rules as concisely as possible.

This is assuming that you are looking for specific feedback on how this plays. If this is more of a "which of these ideas should I move on with and which should I scrap" type of document then things change a bit, of course :)

This is offered in the spirit of constructive criticism and because I think you have good ideas that just need more focus in order to be a finished "product" that can be tested and discussed in detail, so I hope you won't be discouraged by my comments - they're definitely meant as encouragement :)

[Warhead01]

Thank you for the thoughts.
As far as feedback I was hoping for, mostly I just wanted to know if it was organized enough to not just look like craziness vomited onto a page. But I do appreciate all the thoughts and constructive criticism!
I've not stopped working on this since I posted the above, still trying to tighten it up. And your right. I left this open to "any edition" at first because I wanted it to be something that might just sit on top of other standard rule sets. I'm leaning more towards something a bit more closed in now. It could go either way over time.
This is my very first attempt to put a silly "throw together game" into a written format, usually these are just hashed out on the fly during a game when we've played multiplayer games in the past. I'll reread the Hive of the living dead. I know I've read it before but not recently.

Here's the latest addition to the mod. If the image is too small follow the link. Or you should be able to open it in a new tab and enlarge it there.

https://warhead01.blogspot.com/2022/02/zombie-mayhem-i-bloody-pit-of-horrors.html

So what I have done is added the Zombies information to the mission sheet. The idea is that every player will be able to roll out the actions of the Zombies during the Zombie turn and combats or what have you. I like this idea as it would seem to keep players engaged instead of standing around when it's not their active turn. and it would be perfectly reasonable for someone to just play zombies if they wanted to.

I'll be working on all of this more this week and will ty to clean the rules up even more.

again thank you for taking the time to give it a read and attempt to help me steer this weirdness.

On a side not I've just finished painting 70 more zombies for this project!

Edited February 27, 2022 by Warhead01

[Brother Tyler]

I am extremely interested in seeing this developed further.

 

A couple of suggestions:

 

This looks like something that would be most suited to a combat patrol, with forces maximizing infantry models (plague zombies wouldn't really be much of a threat to an Imperial Knight, for example). Also, this would keep the player model numbers lower, allowing for a better "horde" effect with the plague zombies (assuming that's what you're going for).

 

Zombies should move towards models (not players).

 

The zombie spawn point concept is lost on me. Are zombies just materializing at those points?

 

What is the data that is being gathered? Is it information downloaded from a terminal? Is it a briefcase of observations on the zombies? Is it open-ended so that players can develop their own narrative? Perhaps "data" itself is too specific and leaving it as an objective would give the player(s) room to maneuver in developing their own narrative.

 

Is this a solo/co-op or a competitive/co-op game? By solo/co-op, I mean that one or more players each control their own models, but they are not fighting against each other, only the zombies. By competitive/co-op, I mean that the opposing players' models will attack each other and the zombies. The impression I get is that it's the solo/co-op variety since you indicate that the players deploy in the same quadrant.

[Warhead01]

I am extremely interested in seeing this developed further.

 

A couple of suggestions:

 

This looks like something that would be most suited to a combat patrol, with forces maximizing infantry models (plague zombies wouldn't really be much of a threat to an Imperial Knight, for example). Also, this would keep the player model numbers lower, allowing for a better "horde" effect with the plague zombies (assuming that's what you're going for).

 

Zombies should move towards models (not players).

 

The zombie spawn point concept is lost on me. Are zombies just materializing at those points?

 

What is the data that is being gathered? Is it information downloaded from a terminal? Is it a briefcase of observations on the zombies? Is it open-ended so that players can develop their own narrative? Perhaps "data" itself is too specific and leaving it as an objective would give the player(s) room to maneuver in developing their own narrative.

 

Is this a solo/co-op or a competitive/co-op game? By solo/co-op, I mean that one or more players each control their own models, but they are not fighting against each other, only the zombies. By competitive/co-op, I mean that the opposing players' models will attack each other and the zombies. The impression I get is that it's the solo/co-op variety since you indicate that the players deploy in the same quadrant.

Thank you!  I will continue as best I can and thank you for the thoughts. 

 

I'll attempt to sort this out.

 

For starters I had been thinking about this as a cooperative game where players played single models or very small units, maybe 5 models or less would be ideal. 

Players will play the Zombies as much as they play their own models. This is a way to keep everyone engaged and a way to keep things moving as I can't say how many zombies will be on the table at any given time. 

 

Zombies should move toward models, I'm still working out the instructional language So I have said things like player models or player units to try to get this across so that it something like zombies move towards models isn't mistaken to include other Zombies. Although they do move toward other zombies in some cases but in an effort to get to player model or Objectives depending on the mission. 

I list on this first mission what zombies can do and I like the idea of adjusting what they can do or abilities right on the mission sheet so that it is both themed toward the mission and known to all the players. It's still a work in progress, I am sure we'll get there. 

 

The Zombie spawn points. 

To unpack this lets start with the zombie tokens. the over all idea is that there are an unknown number of zombies for the game as many or as few as get generated via dice rolls. This means players can easily recycle zombies back to the table or cap a total number, haven't considered a total number of zombies but it's worth thinking about. The tokens are on the table to establish the zombies first turn. the spawn points. This game is meant to involve as much movement as players in inclined to use. Spawn points refill the table with zombies which keep things going. As far as where they come from, maybe these spawn points are portals or doors to the basement. Both are fine choices.

The spawn point could be represented by tokens or a specific terrain feature. we could use less of them in different missions, if it's better for the players r more thematic. 

This game is an attempt to use ideas from the Call of duty Zombies game, where players fight off wave after wave of zombies. 

To do this o the table top we'll need a way to reach an end point, based on any number of things. Ideas for that are, combined player score, kill count  vs a total number of zombies or maybe something else.  

The data being gathered is just a mechanic to help create the score outside of how many zombies did they kill. It could be used in campaign to determine the end boss players will face in the last game. I am still working on that. I have a few idea but they are not flushed out yet. 

In the early stages I had thought that the objective created the score for determining a winner among the players or possibly zombies, as I sated before I want it possible for the zombies to win. he second score was the kill count which I had figured would be something players could keep but also subtract from to fuel stratagems , which would be specific 

for this game.  But I am having second thoughts on that now as I want it to be much cleaner, less bookkeeping for players. 

 

Yes, players deploy in the same quadrant. I had no plans for them to be fighting each other in this mission. This was more of a first step in a test of concept. If the zombies work and are playable in more kinds of missions or formats then cool, I'm doing something right. There's a lot to hammer out still. 

 

Hope this wasn't gibberish. I hope to have more material in a few days or next week. I'm attempting to clean up my first rules packet so that it's easier to understand. Just have set to typing yet. 

Again, thank you for the reply! (It's given me a fair bit to work on.)

 

Just attempted a very rough solo play through will recommend at least two models, maybe three, for a solo game, one model is easily bogged down by zombies. By which I mean once the zombies get to your model you will have to fight and fight until you can get free. It's a feature not a bug!  For a player aid I am thinking about something like those cheat sheets we used to get with the starter box back in 3rd and so on. A big page with most of what you need to play and if the rules are streamlined enough that might be the whole ruleset.  One thing I did with the zombie spawn point is that it spawns a zombie token, which you move and at the end of that move roll the number of zombies, this worked very well, a lot less moving of models. Lastly I had set the zombies save at a 5+ but am tempted to give them a 6 or no save. Not exactly sure but will give it a try to see if it becomes unbalanced too much. I will set up and get pictures and maybe video when I am ready for another trial run.  

Just about have the game sequence where I want it, move, shoot, charge ect. still needs a little work. I found the space Marine struggled to put down enough zombies and may add a reroll to wound when in close combat as he was outnumber for a few turns. Though he did managed to clear off a lot of zombies. Maybe just leaving a bolter at AP5 would do it. Not sure if I want that or the ap system from 9th yet. it just has to be easy to play.  

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Warhead01

[Warhead01]

I've been working on the turn sequence. I wanted to modify the 40K sequence and add charging to the Movement phase and fighting in close combat to the shooting phase but it has become a bit confusing just now. Maybe doing this was the wrong direction, almost like maybe models need a set number of actions to choose from, this might clean this up but I'm just not sure yet and not ready to pursue that idea just now. 

One issue I am having in my physical playtesting is I am so far only using a 24" X24" area and maybe this is too small for a reasonable playtest but mostly the point has been to look at the mechanics. 

If I throw away everything I am so far unhappy with that leaves the zombies which I kinda like. Moving a token and then revealing the number of models works very well, feels clean. 
adding movement to the zombies every turn after the first is very cool and adds a bit of stress, I think, to the player. So, over all ever thing Zombie related that I have been able to test has works well. My last play test was two marines vs zombies. Want to try it with three models next time to find the right balance for solo play. 

At this stage any mission involving objectives seems pointless. But an escort mission or a mission where players have to defend the center or move to an exit point might play well enough. I'm looking at an alternate use for Objective zone markers. these might be spots on the table where players need to be to turn on game stratagems but that idea is still a ways off. The only other idea I have had is that we put a marker, like a D6 or bigger in an objective every turn a model is on the objective, so one turn set the dice to a 1 and so on every turn however, if a Zombie moves onto that objective the number will go down every turn a Zombie is on that objective zone. Or the number will stop moving if both a model and a Zombie are on the same objective zone.  Then just set a target number for a player victory or a set number of turns to run out the clock for a Zombie victory. Something like the players need a score of 6 to win but the zombies need a score of 0 for two consecutive turns to beat the players. It's fairly simple I think. from there we just need a proper number of Objective zones to balance the game based on the number of players and the number of models. 

Terrain. at this point I have not used any in my playtests but I do feel solid walls and solid structures will be very useful. Some that only players may cross. But on an open table there only option is attack and hope for the best while getting swamped. 

And lastly even with terrain it might be a reasonable idea to limit line of site to zombies from player models. One of the features I like its moving zombie tokens and then revealing how many models are really there. So maybe a 10 to 12 inch range or maybe less, I'm undecided right now. and as you will recall at that contact range the number of zombies is added to the existing zombie token. Could be 2, could be 6 extra Zombies. 

Another avenue I'm interested in is seeing if this concept will carry over to grimdark futures. I'm just not really sure about that now. 

[Brother Tyler]

I suggest limited line of sight based on either terrain (using a Space Hulk mechanism) or darkness (a la night fighting). As long as the "blips" are outside of the player models' line of sight, they remain unconverted. Once they are in LOS, either within the darkness range or exposed from terrain, they are converted over using whatever mechanism you decide upon (either a "blip" representing a fixed number of zombie models, randomized, or whatever).

 

As far as movement goes, the mechanism I've used in my Hive of the Dead game draws upon the 4th edition Kill Team rules where the antagonist models are either unaware (starting) or aware. Unaware zombies move a shorter distance because they're just wandering around looking for food. Once zombies become aware of the player models, their movement distance increases as they charge the heroes. And then I added the increased complexity of two different types of zombies - regular and frenzied (frenzied zombies are even faster).

 

Realistically, the size of the playing area might vary with the mission. You might use a smaller playing area for a certain mission and a larger playing area for another mission, all determined around what provides the best challenge for the players. Much of this should depend upon how long you want the game to last, with the playing area size supporting that. In my first Hive of the Dead scenario, for example, the player had to move their kill team from one edge to an objective area at the opposite end, then return back to their starting point with some NPC models. This required a smaller playing area in order to keep the game length down to something reasonable (2' x 2'). In my current Hive of the Dead game, the objective is to sneak a lone model (or maybe a demi-squad) across the playing area with as little zombie engagement as possible. This requires an even smaller playing area (a killzone). In a scenario in which the player is defending an area, you might use a larger playing area. In this, I see two distinct areas of development. The first is the underlying rules for the zombies and how they work, and the second are the scenario rules (you might have multiple scenarios). This development becomes a bit iterative as you ensure that the rules for both areas work together.

[Warhead01]

I like most all of this. Nothing I'd disagree with, just need more time to digest it all.  It does look like you've got it and again I agree. 

 

 

 I see two distinct areas of development. The first is the underlying rules for the zombies and how they work, and the second are the scenario rules (you might have multiple scenarios). This development becomes a bit iterative as you ensure that the rules for both areas work together.

One idea I have had and maybe not expressed very well is that I am interested in setting the Zombies stats and behavior to the mission sheet. So, in one mission they rush the players but in another they might wonder around, as in your hive of the dead. These should be find and add some variety for the player experience. Other wise players would be stuck in a loop of basic mechanics and it would be challenging to adjust missions to have enough variety. I agree as well about the play area size adjustments. 

Recently I'd thought about setting up a set of random Zombie buffs so that any extra buffs would be random and they could have 1 or more buffs stacks, how ever many times a play would like to up the challenge these Zombies represent. Not sure if this should be something like 3 possible buffs or more, one chart or more but 3 possible buffs and a single roll would be an easy start.  When thinking about this I had 9th edition in mind but not I can't recall what brought this on. I haven't worked on this in a few weeks now.  It's still stewing on the back burner so it's not been abandoned. 

All of this should all be fairly simple as long as we know which 40K or necromunda rule set we're using as a base layer. That is looking like the more important part of the whole thing because in a few different "systems" the Zombies will naturally need to change to no ruin the game. I feel like I was over complicating things, which I discovered quickly with my first two play test attempts. The Zombies in close combat was a slap fight, sorta, but their movement made it impossible to avoid in a small play area with no terrain. It could be that revealing 2D3 + 1 Zombies was simply too many in such a small space. that was anywhere from 3 to 6 as I remember it.  Other changes would have been helpful as well.  On a larger area it might have played much better.  

Lastly, so how do we build a better zombie? is it even needed ? I guess if they are tailored to the mission then that sorts it self out. 
I guess it could be buffs in some cases or numerical advantage in others. So Missions before Zombies? (in a way.) 

I'll get back to this soon-ish.