Astartes being genetically engineered to obey the Emperor

[Just123456]

What evidence is there that Astartes are genetically engineered to obey the Emperor? The only inbuilt loyalty they have is towards their Primarchs, and even that is only respect and awe, not obedience.

 

I would appreciate evidence in the form of book extracts.

 

And Astartes have basked in the presence of their Primarchs, so have regular humans. Does that mean regular humans are genetically engineered to obey them?

 

"In the presence of a primarch, most mortals were gripped by the immensity of just what they were seeing. Here, in physical form, stood majesty incarnate. The biological manipulation, flesh-smithing and genetic rewriting that goes into the construction of one of the Emperor's sons was a unique and unrepeatable practice, with its roots hidden beneath layers of ubelievable secrecy, for even if another sentient being could glimpse the Emperor's gestation laboratories, they would never understand what transpired within. Every mote of biological matter in their bodies was painstakingly shaped – forged on the quantum level to contribute to the whole. It was beyond science, beyond alchemy, beyond psychic sorcery, and yet drew from all of these and more. Humans had suffered strokes and heart attacks in the presence of primarchs. Almost all, without exception, abased themselves upon first meeting one. Many wept without intention or reason."

Edited February 26, 2022 by Just123456

[Grotsmasha]

I wouldn't say that their genetic engineering is the cause of their loyalty, I think we can make the reasonable assumption that the 40k Chapter's methods of psychological indoctrination, chemically controlled and "brain-washed loyalty" methods, were also used at the inception of the Astartes project. 

[Just123456]

Hypno indoctrination is literally only brainwashing, and nothing else. That doesn't take away their free will. They can defy that even though most don't.

 

And tons of Astartes from traitor legions stayed loyalist, one is Barthusa Narek.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Just123456

[Slave to Darkness]

Because reasons, GW are not consistent with their lore, some things are not worth big brain time. 

 

As for brainwashing not taking away free will, I think Joost Meerloo may disagree. I wont say much as its kinda off topic but he was around during 1939-1945 (thats why Im not elaborating much, touchy subject). But he did end his 1956 book 'beat of the Mind' with the following... ''The modern techniques of brainwashing and menticide—those perversions of psychology—can bring almost any man into submission and surrender. Many of the victims of thought control, brainwashing, and menticide that we have talked about were strong men whose minds and wills were broken and degraded.''

 

 

Im sure the Imperium has access to better mind control techniques than the Germans did, they can literally erase memories with mind wiping, cant imagine they would care about giving you a soft reboot if you dont follow the narrative.  

Edited February 26, 2022 by Slave to Darkness

[Just123456]

Because reasons, GW are not consistent with their lore, some things are not worth big brain time.

I haven't seen any real evidence Astartes cannot fight against the Emperor even if they tried due to being conditioned to obey. The Horus Heresy puts a mark against that.

 

Their indoctrination is literally brainwashing. They can defy the Emperor.

 

And as I said before, I would appreciate evidence in the form of book extracts.

 

Astartes basking near their Primarchs has nothing to do with them being engineered to do that. Regular humans are basking near them as well. And regular humans often have a stronger reaction to them than Astartes do.

Because reasons, GW are not consistent with their lore, some things are not worth big brain time.

 

As for brainwashing not taking away free will, I think Joost Meerloo may disagree. I wont say much as its kinda off topic but he was around during 1939-1945 (thats why Im not elaborating much, touchy subject). But he did end his 1956 book 'beat of the Mind' with the following... ''The modern techniques of brainwashing and menticide—those perversions of psychology—can bring almost any man into submission and surrender. Many of the victims of thought control, brainwashing, and menticide that we have talked about were strong men whose minds and wills were broken and degraded.''

 

 

Im sure the Imperium has access to better mind control techniques than the Germans did, they can literally erase memories with mind wiping, cant imagine they would care about giving you a soft reboot if you dont follow the narrative.

Real-world brainwashing has no relevance to 40k brainwashing.

 

The fact that a lot of Legions betrayed the Imperium puts a mark against them being mind slaves.

 

And other experts said Joost Meerloo is wrong. The Horus Heresy as an event shows Astartes CAN defy the Emperor.

 

Even the Loyalist legions and Primarchs had doubts about the Emperor. Jaghatai saw him as a murderer and hated what he was doing. If they were all incapable of defying him and voicing their doubts, why would they do that?

 

There were brainwashed soldiers who broke off in the real-world.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Slips

[Grotsmasha]

Hypno indoctrination is literally only brainwashing, and nothing else. That doesn't take away their free will. They can defy that even though most don't.

 

And tons of Astartes from traitor legions stayed loyalist, one is Barthusa Narek.

 

In the Dark Angel trilogy, it is revealed that the Chaplains, Asmodai (maybe Sapphon, been a while...) in this instance, can drop a phase and command even 1st Company Master Belial do whatever the hell he wants.

 

 

You know what?

 

The answer to your question is: There is no evidence that Astartes are ENGINEERED to be loyal to the Emperor.

[Just123456]

 

 

Hypno indoctrination is literally only brainwashing, and nothing else. That doesn't take away their free will. They can defy that even though most don't.

And tons of Astartes from traitor legions stayed loyalist, one is Barthusa Narek.

 

In the Dark Angel trilogy, it is revealed that the Chaplains, Asmodai (maybe Sapphon, been a while...) in this instance, can drop a phase and command even 1st Company Master Belial do whatever the hell he wants.

 

 

You know what?

 

The answer to your question is: There is no evidence that Astartes are ENGINEERED to be loyal to the Emperor.

Even the Loyalist Astartes and Primarchs had doubts about the Emperor. Jaghatai saw him as a mass murderer and hated what he did. If they were incapable of defying him and being brainwashed, why would they do that? And the Chaos Primarchs And Legions did everything to try and corrupt Jaghatai, and they failed even though Jaghatai views the Emperor as a mass murderer and hated what he did.

 

And what evidence is there that the Dark Angels books had them being mind slaves and incapable of defying? The Horus Heresy Astartes defied the Imperium. Even the Loyalist Astartes and Primarchs had doubts about the Empetor.

 

I appreciate your taking the time to answer. And I hope for another response.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Just123456

[Grotsmasha]

I'll say it again,There is NO evidence that Astartes are ENGINEERED to be loyal to the Emperor.

 

In 40k, the brain-washing and hypno-indoctrination is to the Chapter, which in a 30k perspective would indicate the marines primary loyalty would be to their Legion and Primarch.

Because the Primarch's were stolen from the Emperor, they were not fully .... imprinted? .... on him, meaning the Primarch's views and opinions were set by their upbringings and not The Emperors' philosophies and morals.

 

 

In summary, I'm agreeing with you in stating Astartes are mot constructed, or mentally indoctrinated (generally) to be specifically loyal to the Emperor en-masse.

 

 

Now the Dark Angels, honestly I'd have to read the books again to find the quote, and i will have a skim, I believe it was in the last 3rd of the 3rd book, but I have no idea if that is correct or not.

 

I will put in the caveat that this is most likely NOT TRUE for the 1st Legion Terrans (who were the Emperor's primary Legion for a bit), or any Terrans' from any Legion who personally fought under the Epmeror's command prior to the reclamation of the Primarchs.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Grotsmasha

[Just123456]

I'll say it again,There is NO evidence that Astartes are ENGINEERED to be loyal to the Emperor.

 

In 40k, the brain-washing and hypno-indoctrination is to the Chapter, which in a 30k perspective would indicate the marines primary loyalty would be to their Legion and Primarch.

Because the Primarch's were stolen from the Emperor, they were not fully .... imprinted? .... on him, meaning the Primarch's views and opinions were set by their upbringings and not The Emperors' philosophies and morals.

 

 

In summary, I'm agreeing with you in stating Astartes are mot constructed, or mentally indoctrinated (generally) to be specifically loyal to the Emperor en-masse.

 

 

Now the Dark Angels, honestly I'd have to read the books again to find the quote, and i will have a skim, I believe it was in the last 3rd of the 3rd book, but I have no idea if that is correct or not.

 

I will put in the caveat that this is most likely NOT TRUE for the 1st Legion Terrans (who were the Emperor's primary Legion for a bit), or any Terrans' from any Legion who personally fought under the Epmeror's command prior to the reclamation of the Primarchs.

Alright. But a lot of loyalist Astartes also hated what the Emperor did. Not exclusively the Loyalist Primarchs.

 

Does anyone know when the next Siege of Terra book will be released?

Edited February 26, 2022 by Just123456

[Gorgoff]

What evidence is there that Astartes are genetically engineered to obey the Emperor?

None.

End of story. ;)

[Closet Skeleton]

Hypno indoctrination is literally only brainwashing, and nothing else. That doesn't take away their free will. They can defy that even though most don't.

 

And tons of Astartes from traitor legions stayed loyalist, one is Barthusa Narek.

Brainwashing isn't scientifically recognised thing with a real definition so that first sentence is meaningless.

 

Colloquially brainwashing does imply a loss of 'free will' (which also has no agreed definition in spite/because of 2000 years of philosophical discussion on it) and a need for 'deprogramming' to 'regain' personal 'independence'. The novel (1959) and film (1962) The Manchurian Candidate is explicitly about loss of free will and solidified the concept of brainwashing in popular culture.

 

Most 'creating a space marine' articles describe Hypno-Indoctrination as being about redesigning the human mind for combat, not instilling loyalty. Its where the whole 'and they shall know no fear' thing comes from. Sometimes its said to be more important in the creation of a super soldier than the extra organs (many of which are random novelties anyway).

 

Some form of loyalty element is implied by it being reformed and improved post-Heresy though.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Bung]

What evidence is there that Astartes are genetically engineered to obey the Emperor? The only inbuilt loyalty they have is towards their Primarchs, and even that is only respect and awe, not obedience.

 

I would appreciate evidence in the form of book extracts.

 

And Astartes have basked in the presence of their Primarchs, so have regular humans. Does that mean regular humans are genetically engineered to obey them?

 

"In the presence of a primarch, most mortals were gripped by the immensity of just what they were seeing. Here, in physical form, stood majesty incarnate. The biological manipulation, flesh-smithing and genetic rewriting that goes into the construction of one of the Emperor's sons was a unique and unrepeatable practice, with its roots hidden beneath layers of ubelievable secrecy, for even if another sentient being could glimpse the Emperor's gestation laboratories, they would never understand what transpired within. Every mote of biological matter in their bodies was painstakingly shaped – forged on the quantum level to contribute to the whole. It was beyond science, beyond alchemy, beyond psychic sorcery, and yet drew from all of these and more. Humans had suffered strokes and heart attacks in the presence of primarchs. Almost all, without exception, abased themselves upon first meeting one. Many wept without intention or reason."

 

They dont even know themself.

 

If you read the short story "The will of the Legion" there is an Imperial Fist Captain asking himself are we doing this because its the right thing or dom we do it cause our Primarch ordered it.

[Just123456]

 

Hypno indoctrination is literally only brainwashing, and nothing else. That doesn't take away their free will. They can defy that even though most don't.

And tons of Astartes from traitor legions stayed loyalist, one is Barthusa Narek.

 

Brainwashing isn't scientifically recognised thing with a real definition so that first sentence is meaningless.

 

Colloquially brainwashing does imply a loss of 'free will' (which also has no agreed definition in spite/because of 2000 years of philosophical discussion on it) and a need for 'deprogramming' to 'regain' personal 'independence'. The novel (1959) and film (1962) The Manchurian Candidate is explicitly about loss of free will and solidified the concept of brainwashing in popular culture.

 

Most 'creating a space marine' articles describe Hypno-Indoctrination as being about redesigning the human mind for combat, not instilling loyalty. Its where the whole 'and they shall know no fear' thing comes from. Sometimes its said to be more important in the creation of a super soldier than the extra organs (many of which are random novelties anyway).

 

Some form of loyalty element is implied by it being reformed and improved post-Heresy though.

But I haven't seen any real evidence Astartes and Primarchs are engineered to obey the Emperor. If they are incapable of defying him, why did the Horus Heresy happen? And even loyalist Astartes and Primarchs had doubts about the Emperor. Jaghatai viewed him as a mass murderer and hated what he did. And a lot of loyalist legions also had their doubts about the Emperor. Why would they think of him as a mass murderer and hated what he did if they were incapable of defying him and can't think for themselves? Edited February 26, 2022 by Just123456

[Just123456]

 

What evidence is there that Astartes are genetically engineered to obey the Emperor? The only inbuilt loyalty they have is towards their Primarchs, and even that is only respect and awe, not obedience.

I would appreciate evidence in the form of book extracts.

And Astartes have basked in the presence of their Primarchs, so have regular humans. Does that mean regular humans are genetically engineered to obey them?

"In the presence of a primarch, most mortals were gripped by the immensity of just what they were seeing. Here, in physical form, stood majesty incarnate. The biological manipulation, flesh-smithing and genetic rewriting that goes into the construction of one of the Emperor's sons was a unique and unrepeatable practice, with its roots hidden beneath layers of ubelievable secrecy, for even if another sentient being could glimpse the Emperor's gestation laboratories, they would never understand what transpired within. Every mote of biological matter in their bodies was painstakingly shaped – forged on the quantum level to contribute to the whole. It was beyond science, beyond alchemy, beyond psychic sorcery, and yet drew from all of these and more. Humans had suffered strokes and heart attacks in the presence of primarchs. Almost all, without exception, abased themselves upon first meeting one. Many wept without intention or reason."

 

They dont even know themself.

 

If you read the short story "The will of the Legion" there is an Imperial Fist Captain asking himself are we doing this because its the right thing or dom we do it cause our Primarch ordered it.

Again. A lot of Astartes are fanatics. They'll do practically anything their leaders say.

 

Why did a lot of loyalist legions and Primarchs also have their doubts about the Emperor to the extent Jaghatai and his Legion and other Astartes legions viewed him as a mass murderer and hated everything he did? Jaghatai hated what the Emperor did, and only stayed loyal since the alternative choice was much worse. And other loyalist legions and Primarchs also had doubts about the Emperor.

 

Barthusa Narek is a loyalist Word Bearer who betrayed his Legion. So much for Astartes being engineered to obey their Primarchs. Ain't that right? Barthusa Narek shows Astartes CAN defy their Primarchs. And the LOYALIST legions having doubts about the Emperor shows they CAN think for themselves.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Just123456

[Cactus]

This is a strange question. Just123456 do you think the astartes were genetically engineered to be loyal to the Emperor? Have you encountered someone with that view and you're testing their hypothesis?

 

I think the reason nobody can produce evidence in support is because it's not true. I don't tbink I have ever heard someone assert that it is.

[Noserenda]

Im guessing you mean like Robocop cant shoot executives? Its seems unlikely but we wont really know until the Big E teleports up to the Vengeful spirit, afaik thats the only time Traitors ever get the chance to try directly. They obviously are fully capable of doing it indirectly because of that lil civil war thing.

[Just123456]

Im guessing you mean like Robocop cant shoot executives? Its seems unlikely but we wont really know until the Big E teleports up to the Vengeful spirit, afaik thats the only time Traitors ever get the chance to try directly. They obviously are fully capable of doing it indirectly because of that lil civil war thing.

Even the Loyalist Astartes and Primarchs had doubts about the Emperor. Jaghatai viewed him as a mass murderer and what what he did. And Jaghatai only remained loyal since the alternative is worse. And other loyalists had their doubts about the Emperor as well.

 

There are users who said Astartes are engineered to obey the Emperor.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Just123456

[Grotsmasha]

Ok, I'm not following your point.

 

You are hammering at the point "that it just can't be true that Astartes are MADE to be loyal to the Emperor because The Heresy", but EVERY SINGLE REPLY to the topic is AGREEING with that point, BUT you keep replying to us like we are DISAGREEING with you. 

 

It's like you want us to disagree so you can prove us wrong.

 

I'm out.

[Just123456]

Thanks for the talk. I'll leave Edited February 27, 2022 by Just123456

[Just123456]

This is a strange question. Just123456 do you think the astartes were genetically engineered to be loyal to the Emperor? Have you encountered someone with that view and you're testing their hypothesis?

I think the reason nobody can produce evidence in support is because it's not true. I don't tbink I have ever heard someone assert that it is.

Thanks for posting.

 

Does the below book extract look like the Word Bearers knelt willingly? I have seen a few users say they knelt willingly.

 

https://pastebin.com/2qCAB4FE

Edited February 27, 2022 by Just123456

[Karhedron]

Does the below book extract look like the Word Bearers knelt willingly? I have seen a few users say they knelt willingly.

 

https://pastebin.com/2qCAB4FE

I assumed it was psychic power rather than anything genetic but it is not clear.

[Just123456]

 

Does the below book extract look like the Word Bearers knelt willingly? I have seen a few users say they knelt willingly.https://pastebin.com/2qCAB4FE

I assumed it was psychic power rather than anything genetic but it is not clear.

That book extract is clear as day that they were forced against their will.

 

The Horus Heresy wouldn't have happened if they were genetically engineered to obey him, and if they were indoctrinated to obey him with no free will.

 

Even the Loyalist Astartes and Primarchs had doubts about the Emperor. Jaghatai viewed him as a mass murderer and hated what he did (and Jaghatai only remained loyal since the alternative is worse).

 

And FYI, no amount of genetically engineered obedience is going to get the Word Bearers, every 100,000 of them, flying into the air when the Emperor raised his voice.

 

The Emperor sent 100,000 of them flying into the air when he raised his voice. That is clearly psyker strength.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Just123456

[MegaVolt87]

Astartes indoctrination is different in 30k and 40k.

 

30k- to legion, then Primarch. Primarch to Emperor. Pre-Primarch, legion master and high command would have met/fought beside the Emperor/ Custodes. SoH is remarkable, in that as one of the older legions, its Terran contingent was such a strong influence, purging the loyal elements damaged the legion in excess of what Horus anticipated. Also the Khan, he only stayed loyal because he made his oath to the Emperor first before Horus. If Horus had found Khan and met before the Emperor, things may have gone differently. 

 

40k- To Emperor, Primarch and then chapter. The process is reversed, the Emperor can't betray himself, Primarchs are no longer around to stray and the smaller chapter, everyone can keep tabs on each other and the power individuals can amass is quite limited in comparison. Consider also, you have a tighter bond because there are less of you and you are more accountable etc. 

 

Astartes indoctrination is meant to break down the self and re-build a personality to a common, unified set of beliefs and values. In the HH we see Legionaries retaining memories they probably shouldn't have kept, thus clashing with the legion culture and the Imperium's aims/ ideals. Then some who have no independent thought at all and are just a vessal for their Primarchs will, much like a Custode. One could even argue a 40k Astartes is just under a Custode in mental fortitude due to reforms post HH. 

[Just123456]

Astartes indoctrination is different in 30k and 40k.

 

30k- to legion, then Primarch. Primarch to Emperor. Pre-Primarch, legion master and high command would have met/fought beside the Emperor/ Custodes. SoH is remarkable, in that as one of the older legions, its Terran contingent was such a strong influence, purging the loyal elements damaged the legion in excess of what Horus anticipated. Also the Khan, he only stayed loyal because he made his oath to the Emperor first before Horus. If Horus had found Khan and met before the Emperor, things may have gone differently.

 

40k- To Emperor, Primarch and then chapter. The process is reversed, the Emperor can't betray himself, Primarchs are no longer around to stray and the smaller chapter, everyone can keep tabs on each other and the power individuals can amass is quite limited in comparison. Consider also, you have a tighter bond because there are less of you and you are more accountable etc.

 

Astartes indoctrination is meant to break down the self and re-build a personality to a common, unified set of beliefs and values. In the HH we see Legionaries retaining memories they probably shouldn't have kept, thus clashing with the legion culture and the Imperium's aims/ ideals. Then some who have no independent thought at all and are just a vessal for their Primarchs will, much like a Custode. One could even argue a 40k Astartes is just under a Custode in mental fortitude due to reforms post HH.

 

I know. The fact Jaghatai refused Horus shows he can think for himself and that Chaos corruption didn't eat away their engineered loyalty.

 

The Horus Heresy as an event shows Astartes and Primarchs CAN defy the Emperor. And Jaghatai having a dim view on the Emperor (hating him as a mass murderer) shows he can think for himself and that them being engineered to obey the Emperor is wrong, even if Chaos core would destroyed their engineered loyalty.

 

Jaghatai said while the Emperor is a mass murderer, the Chaos Gods are worse.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Just123456

[Brother Lunkhead]

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This thread is now locked pending review.

 

While the topic itself has generated interesting points, the originator's responses are repetitive to a point forcing this conversation into a circle with no path for expansion or conclusion.

 

If this thread is to be reopened, someone needs to PM me with a compelling reason, otherwise it may remain locked indefinitely. 

 

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