Alternatives for Dreadnoughts. Sentinels? Lore Question

[Codex Grey]

Let's say a Chapter doesn't want to use dreadnoughts for philosophical reasons.

 

Would it be reasonable/possible for them to use IG Sentinels? Piloted by marines, or scouts if there's a size issue.

 

Also, what units could a Chapter use instead of Dreadnoughts to fill in the tactical gaps that dreadnoughts usually fill?

 

Finally, on a scale from 1 to HERETIC!!!!, what do you think about a stripped down dreadnought chassis, modified to be piloted by a marine?

 

For context, I'm working on fluff for a DIY Chapter called Void Slayers (link in sig.)

They are 3rd founding Iron Hands successors, so their founders were reasonably tech savvy, but they want to distance themselves from their parent Chapter's obsession with the mechanical. Dreadnoughts are viewed as emblematic of this obsession.

 

This is less of an issue now with Invictor War Suits, but since they have a long history I'm more conserned with the times before Primaris.

 

I want to make the fluff as believable as it can be within the established lore, so I'm interested in hearing if there is a general consensus on the subject I'm unaware of, or if it's just as I thought.

I want to know if it opens up a potential weakness in their capabilities or not. In which case what can potentially fill that role.

 

Any help or opinions are welcomed.

 

 

EDIT: Clarified a few things.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Codex Grey

[WARMASTER_]

Let's say a Chapter doesn't want to use dreadnoughts for philosophical reasons.

 

Would it be reasonable/possible for them to use IG Sentinels? Piloted by marines, or scouts if there's a size issue.

 

Also, what units could a Chapter use instead of Dreadnoughts to fill in the tactical gaps that dreadnoughts usually fill?

 

Finally, on a scale from 1 to HERETIC!!!!, what do you think about a stripped down dreadnought chassis, modified to be piloted by a marine?

 

For context, I'm working on a DIY Chapter called Void Slayers (link in sig.). They are 3rd founding Iron Hands successors, so their founders were reasonably tech savvy, but they want to distance themselves from their parent Chapter's obsession with the mechanical. Dreadnought are viewed as emblematic of this obsession.

This is less of an issue now with Invictor War Suits, but since they have a long history...

 

Any help or opinions are welcomed.

I’d probably say no with the sentinels as lore wise I just can’t see the gain? Power armour is probably better protection as it’s IG tech and not a battle tank, plus devastators can already carry equally as hevay weapons so it’s not more firepower either

 

As regards to the tactical hole it leaves I would suggest that they might employ more or have a preference for heavy weapons like devastators or even more suits of terminator armour as an iron hands successors it’s an easy justification

 

 

With the scale of 1 to heretic a stripped down chassis with a pilot is basically a invictor war suit but I wouldn’t push it past that personally

 

I feel it’s best a marine chapter doesn’t stray a million miles away with tech especially new tech they've created it rarely works in lore, (Relic weapons or ships being different to them inventing a new Dreadnought chassis) most chapters differences come from cultures or combat doctrines, I’d say if they don’t like Dreadnoughts a better explanation is they simply don’t use them and just go without

 

Edit

 

Just to add to my answer I also think it’s a cool idea for them not to use them and it’s also a good lore point for you to explore on how they cope without I wouldn’t worry about finding direct replacements but as I said above maybe explore different combat doctrines or slight changes to codex adherence like the star phantoms having an extra devastator squad per battle company or maybe have say a predator in the company pool rather than the armoury

Edited March 9, 2022 by BladeOfVengeance

[Grotsmasha]

White Scars feel the same way, and historically have fewer dreadnoughts, but recognise their utility.

Practically, I think converting a Firstborn Invictor as a Counts-as Dreadnought would be an excellent project and fantastic model.

[Karhedron]

The Invictor sounds exactly like what you are looking for.

[Codex Grey]

As regards to the tactical hole it leaves I would suggest that they might employ more or have a preference for heavy weapons like devastators or even more suits of terminator armour as an iron hands successors it’s an easy justification

 

(...)

 

I’d say if they don’t like Dreadnoughts a better explanation is they simply don’t use them and just go without

This was basically my stance up until now, but the issue was raised in another topic so I thought it would be neat to get some other opinions and ideas.

In the end I might just not go into any more details about the subject in my write up.

 

The Invictor sounds exactly like what you are looking for.

To be clear, I'm looking for alternatives from before the Invictor was a thing.

[Noserenda]

Sounds like you want an adorable baby invictor warsuit? :D 

Niche wise i suspect you would replace dreadnoughts with Terminators and Predators? Neither fits perfectly but thats why there are dreadnoughts after all.

[TheNewman]

They're a contentious model but Centurions are in the wheelhouse of what you're describing. Edited March 9, 2022 by TheNewman

[Xenith]

Finally, on a scale from 1 to HERETIC!!!!, what do you think about a stripped down dreadnought chassis, modified to be piloted by a marine?

 

 

I believe the original fluff for dreads had them potentially pilotable by normal, intact marines, however the neural feedback/whatever from piloting the thing would burn out their synapses and render them comatose after not too long - kind of like the redemptor dread fluff at the moment. It basically overclocks the brain, having to run all those systems, and the pilot melts. 

 

No reason you couldn't have a chapter doing this...but like the model is going to be a dreadnought.

 

What's the goal here, to avoid using the dreadnought model in the game as you dont like it, or to have a fluff justification for not entombing marines in dreads? 

 

As for tactical replacements, Tactical Dreadnought Armour is pretty much what you're looking for. Heavily armed and armoured warsuits for frontline/breaching action. 

[Codex Grey]

What's the goal here, to avoid using the dreadnought model in the game as you dont like it, or to have a fluff justification for not entombing marines in dreads?

The latter. This is as stated a lore question and I don't really care about the gameplay/model aspect of it.

 

I want to make the fluff as believable as it can be within the established lore, so I'm interested in hearing if there is a general consensus on the subject I'm unaware of, or if it's just as I thought.

The reasons for why the Chapter does not want to use Dreads make sense, imo, adds to their character, but I want to know if it opens up a potential weakness in their capabilities, which should be filled by something else. In which case what.

 

However, so far I'm getting the sense that people don't see it as too much of an issue.

[Xenith]

Sorry, forgot that bit in the title when answering.

 

Sentinels. Bear in mind that power armour is probably as thick as sentinel armour, heavy flamers/lascannons are man portable, and so are chainswords, I can't see marines using them. 

 

If the chapter is more forward thinking and less worries about tech-heresy (thus earning the wrath of mars), they might retrofit dread chassis with human pilot controls - attack bike seat might fit where a dread chassis goes? 

 

However if they view the marine/dread symbiosis as part of the cybernetic problem they wish to move past, and eschew dreads completely, plenty of other stuff can plug the gaps. Dreads are a mobile firebase and linebreaker, used where tracked vehicles might not be able to go. You can shore up this tactical deficiency with things like attack bikes, terminators, rapier platforms, thunderfire cannons (specifically said to go where other heavy units cant) or even just veteran squads to both deal out damage and provide tactical expertise to nearby units. 

 

*edit - types, my keyboard is rubbish, apparently. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Xenith

[Chaplain Augustus]

For Tactical reasons... Your chapter might develop a relationship with a knight house and call on their assistance for close armored support. I.e."hey can you guys help us out with those shiny warglaives? They sure can get the job done!"

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

You know there isn’t a fully functional battle brother inside the dreadnought right?

[MadGreek]

So, in the rogue trader days, dreadnaughts were piloted by living, functioning, Marines. They obviously retconned that to be pilots near death hardwired into the machinery.

 

As far as the Invictor goes, of course it perfectly matches the theme you want, a living pilot in a "stripped down" chasis. All you need to do is swap out arms / armament to suit the rules of the dread you are trying to "count-as." 

 

If the time frame concerns you - i.e. they have been doing this since founding, but Primaris are new, well.. are they though? Isn't it canon that Cawl started the project just after the Heresy, or at least about 10,000 years ago, but it all went "on ice" till Guilliman came back? PERHAPS, your chapter found or was giving access to the STC for the Invictor chasis way back then. Or, perhaps your chapter, after splitting from the parent chapter, decided to hollow out any dread chasis they had and fit there own pilot into them - and THAT's were Cawl got the idea for the Invictor. It all depends on what you want to do and how you want your individual chapter canon to play out.

 

Of course maybe the origin of the stripped down Dread has been lost to time, and as far as your chapter knows, it has always just been this way. Your models, your idea ( a good idea by the way), run with it.