The hypothetical inclusion of Xenos in the HH game

[Varyn]

These rules changes sound amazing!

 

Now, as there are stuff all HH players in my area, let's get GW to add all the Xenos and Chaos armies into the system and replace the hot mess that is 9th.

 

Just do what suits me, the rest of you can just accept those cha ges in good grace.

 

 

There was something in an early rumour about some xenos rules coming for Heresy 2.0. Orks and Eldar (in some form) would certainly make sense for some crusade era games.

 

I know that the Aus30k guys wrote some rules for Eldar, Orks and Necrons, these are usually available on their site, but it looks like the site is down and they're temporarily using a google drive link:

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/15AYRHDCBa5PMIwRP7vncbagfmW2Smzv8

 

If GW added rules for some xenos armies it would certainly be a way to attract some more players into Heresy, however I feel that it would be a fine balance; I wouldn't mind the odd game against a xenos army, but I think the focus of the game should be on the Horus Heresy civil war and the established factions within that.

[sarabando]

 

These rules changes sound amazing!

 

Now, as there are stuff all HH players in my area, let's get GW to add all the Xenos and Chaos armies into the system and replace the hot mess that is 9th.

 

Just do what suits me, the rest of you can just accept those cha ges in good grace.

 

 

There was something in an early rumour about some xenos rules coming for Heresy 2.0. Orks and Eldar (in some form) would certainly make sense for some crusade era games.

 

I know that the Aus30k guys wrote some rules for Eldar, Orks and Necrons, these are usually available on their site, but it looks like the site is down and they're temporarily using a google drive link:

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/15AYRHDCBa5PMIwRP7vncbagfmW2Smzv8

 

If GW added rules for some xenos armies it would certainly be a way to attract some more players into Heresy, however I feel that it would be a fine balance; I wouldn't mind the odd game against a xenos army, but I think the focus of the game should be on the Horus Heresy civil war and the established factions within that.

 

adding xenos would make the game step on 40k's toes a little too much, why would GW spend the money on running two almost identical games? 

[Varyn]

I think the logic (from GW) would be that someone with an ork army could try out Horus Heresy and then end up starting a legion force. I personally don't think xenos armies are needed in Horus Heresy, I was just commenting on the unofficial rules and rumours. I think that considering there would probably only be orks, Eldar and maybe Necrons, it wouldn't be too much of a cross over with 40k. These factions are present in the lore during the Horus Heresy so it wouldn't be completely out of left field. 

 

I am conscious that this will potentially derail the thread! 

 

Let's hope for some more bits of information on Heresy 2.0 soon, I have high hopes for Adepticon :) 

[Valkyrion]

Whilst technically a case could be made for full faction support for xenos armies, 30k is designed and balanced for marine on marine violence and emperor forbid that Eldar, for instance, were to be an unbalanced force and you end up with meta chasing HH players duking it out between different coloured pointy ears instead of Dark Angels knocking ten bells out the Night Lords. 

[Noserenda]

Whilst technically a case could be made for full faction support for xenos armies, 30k is designed and balanced for marine on marine violence and emperor forbid that Eldar, for instance, were to be an unbalanced force and you end up with meta chasing HH players duking it out between different coloured pointy ears instead of Dark Angels knocking ten bells out the Night Lords. 

Feels like that horse bolted a while ago, at least as far back as the Throne of Skulls where i fought Mechanicum in every game :D 

[Gorgoff]

FW won't do any xenos lists for HH. Not now and not if any New edition comes. Thats nonsense

[Bung]

I think the logic (from GW) would be that someone with an ork army could try out Horus Heresy and then end up starting a legion force. I personally don't think xenos armies are needed in Horus Heresy, I was just commenting on the unofficial rules and rumours. I think that considering there would probably only be orks, Eldar and maybe Necrons, it wouldn't be too much of a cross over with 40k. These factions are present in the lore during the Horus Heresy so it wouldn't be completely out of left field.

 

I am conscious that this will potentially derail the thread!

 

Let's hope for some more bits of information on Heresy 2.0 soon, I have high hopes for Adepticon :)

Nah, you wont be able to play the same army in 2 games.

Thats Not how GW works.

[Spagunk]

I mean, lack of Xenos is kinda the HH schtick since 2012 or whatever. Great if they do something but like why get your hopes up that this is changing?

 

"Hope is the first step...something something..."

[MARK0SIAN]

 

I think the logic (from GW) would be that someone with an ork army could try out Horus Heresy and then end up starting a legion force. I personally don't think xenos armies are needed in Horus Heresy, I was just commenting on the unofficial rules and rumours. I think that considering there would probably only be orks, Eldar and maybe Necrons, it wouldn't be too much of a cross over with 40k. These factions are present in the lore during the Horus Heresy so it wouldn't be completely out of left field.

 

I am conscious that this will potentially derail the thread!

 

Let's hope for some more bits of information on Heresy 2.0 soon, I have high hopes for Adepticon :)

Nah, you wont be able to play the same army in 2 games.

Thats Not how GW works.

They do work like that in a few cases. Most people who play 40K could put together the models required for a kill team without much effort. And Daemons can be played in AoS, 40K and heresy with a lot of the same models.

 

I’m not saying that’s what they will do but it’s definitely feasible.

[Lord Marshal]

Non-Marine players are already dwarfed by Marine players about 20:1 when it comes to 30k. I'm not opposed to them writing up Xenos rules, but I don't imagine they'll be popular.

 

I'd rather see Dark Mechanicum and Imperial Army regulars get rules first.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[StrangerOrders]

I would personally point out that most Xenos wouldnt really make sense in 30k.

 

Necrons are still largely asleep, I think Trazyn and Orikan were awake along with a few vassals. But not really many more.

 

Nids havent been called yet.

 

Eldar of all stripes aside from Harlequins are still a ways from resembling their 'modern' forms. The fall is just barely leaving living memory and Aspect warriors are still conceptually new. If I recall correctly, the Paths arent even universally accepted yet. Vect still hasnt secured his stranglehold on Commoragh either.

 

Tau are not even a twinkle in the eyes of a particularly aroused goat with a fish fetish yet.

 

And the Ork clans are nowhere near their modern forms and are generally way too divergent to just have one range.

 

That being said.... it would be cool if they made like 3-kit Xenos sub ranges for the more common and nightmarish abominations of the time. Monstrousities like the Khrave, Slaugh or the Rangdan would be lovely to see envisioned. Especially since the Khrave's habit of using meat puppets would mean you could probably just use Imperial Army for your Troops.

 

Kinebrach wouldnt make sense, from a galactic PoV they were both already way too isolated and only got limited exposure being being curb-stomped into oblivion.

 

Just my two cents.

Edited March 9, 2022 by StrangerOrders

[SkimaskMohawk]

Narratively, Xenos shouldn't really be around during the heresy proper. The imperium had won; all major Xenos threats had been eradicated or severely culled. It's plausible to run into them here or there throughout the heresy, but not where they should be represented as a faction. It's the same thing that comes up with Titanicus. The heresy isn't about the Xenos.

 

Rules wise, 30k and Titanicus work best the closer you get to mirror. Everyone has the same box of tools and broadly the same set of capabilities. With each new faction added, the more opportunity for imbalance and skew builds comes into play; arguably all the non marine factions are stronger than the legions. Adding xenos on top of that will only make it worse as they need a hook that doesn't make people think it's "just" 7th Ed necrons, eldar or Orks. They have to be interesting like daemons, and not fodder for the plethora of anti Xenos weapons the legions have at their disposal.

[Montuhotep]

Tau are not even a twinkle in the eyes of a particularly aroused goat with a fish fetish yet.

 

 

Best description of them yet!

[Marshal Mittens]

Kroot were around!

[TheTrans]

I honestly see no issues with localised small-force xenos within 30k. 

Like I get the AT argument, if you're brining titan scale assets to bear, then you probably have fleet support and if there is fleet support, the Imperium probably has a massive advantage which means dead enemy titan-esque units. 

But xenos, there are so many easy plot hooks for xenos to appear in (and lets be honest, 30k in the scale of actual warfare is a skirmish based game) orks, grown under some rocks, dirt farmer flipped said rock on compliant world, boom ork bull:cusstery. Eldar, popped out of warpgates as Legionary Steve has been forseen to be the bro that destroys Ulthwé, necrons, someone pulled a right instead of a left in their termite and woke up a tomb. 

As said above though as well, there is so many cool 'other' races that are around.

I've been sorely tempted to do a Khrave army using some form of Blackshields as the Khrave in an AoDC and using the mooks as ...well...mooks. Same with enslavers and a Daemons army, so many cool options.

Here is hoping they don't nuke all the grey area armies... but I think thats overly wishful thinking. 

[Noserenda]

I mean the "theres not many of them" argument always falls down assuming any given race has more than 10k fighters left in the whole galaxy, BOOM you just exceeded the Adeptus Custodes for numerical relevance :P 

It also makes the fairly narrow assumption that all Heresy collectors are only focused right at the edge of the periods timeline, when Pre Heresy armies are largely what kicked the whole thing off and still remain fairly common. 

No, the real problem is splitting the player base, something GW probably really wants to avoid right now given the dip 40k has had recently and it apparently working to address. Though that said i guess they dont really care what you use your models for once you bought them :D 

[Marshal Rohr]

It should also be pointed out about Mechanicum spam is that the AdMech in 30k is actually cool as hell. Skitarii are awesome but 40K AdMech is incredibly poorly fleshed out.

[TheTrans]

I mean the "theres not many of them" argument always falls down assuming any given race has more than 10k fighters left in the whole galaxy, BOOM you just exceeded the Adeptus Custodes for numerical relevance  

 

It also makes the fairly narrow assumption that all Heresy collectors are only focused right at the edge of the periods timeline, when Pre Heresy armies are largely what kicked the whole thing off and still remain fairly common. 

 

No, the real problem is splitting the player base, something GW probably really wants to avoid right now given the dip 40k has had recently and it apparently working to address. Though that said i guess they dont really care what you use your models for once you bought them

Haha fantastic point, **looks at the 10 Telemon dreads in existance and what.. isn't there like 3 tribunes (would make sense given the Tri I imagine haha)**

 

I honestly love all the earlier heresy books where a lot of them are them putting down..well not even the final xenos armies, but armies that sill have the capacity to be a pain. Like if you think about it, sure the Big E went back to Terra to do his thing and let horus keep going, but the crusade was far from over, meaning there would no doubt be a bunch of little splinter empires/fleets/worlds still rattling around.

 

The Tau would have existed as a race, they may have just started like early hunter-gatherer levels of society when you think about it. We had the Pyramids what for about 4-5000 years? 

 

But yeah to me saying "Orks/Eldar/minor xenos or human nations don't belong in the heresy because they weren't major combatants" is a bit dumb and sounds like people have drunk too much of the Anuj Kool-Aide.

 

The Legions should be front and centre, but to me without veiwing them through mortal/xenos eys makes them much less heroic. Marines are the main characters, but the other races are the rest of the story around them. 

[m0nolith]

Non-Marine players are already dwarfed by Marine players about 20:1 when it comes to 30k. I'm not opposed to them writing up Xenos rules, but I don't imagine they'll be popular.

 

I'd rather see Dark Mechanicum and Imperial Army regulars get rules first.

Tme and time again FW has said that HH is specifically about the civil war that took place then and the combatants of that civil war, ie loyalists, traitors and their demonic allies. 

 

Then again if GW proper recognizes 30k as a mainline product like 40k and Sigmar, all bets are off. 

[Dagoth Ur]

Tme and time again FW has said that HH is specifically about the civil war that took place then and the combatants of that civil war, ie loyalists, traitors and their demonic allies.

Pretty much this. This isn't Warhammer 40'000: The Great Crusade, but Warhammer 40'000: The Horus Heresy. It's about the imperial civil war. The presence and relevance - both actual and thematic - of xenos combatants is peripheral at best. Expecting or wanting Xenos rules out of the Horus Heresy is like expecting dedicated Traitor Legion rules out of the Badab War Books - why would they be there if they are literally irrelevant to the conflict at hand?

[TheTrans]

 

Tme and time again FW has said that HH is specifically about the civil war that took place then and the combatants of that civil war, ie loyalists, traitors and their demonic allies.

Pretty much this. This isn't Warhammer 40'000: The Great Crusade, but Warhammer 40'000: The Horus Heresy. It's about the imperial civil war. The presence and relevance - both actual and thematic - of xenos combatants is peripheral at best. Expecting or wanting Xenos rules out of the Horus Heresy is like expecting dedicated Traitor Legion rules out of the Badab War Books - why would they be there if they are literally irrelevant to the conflict at hand?

 

As said above though, if we're talking about actual relevance in the conflict, there probably shouldn't really be a complete Custodes/Talons army, maybe small units that join the army like knights errant, but we shouldn't be seeing custodes as much as we do. Most of the time they where either getting their teeth kicked in by daemons, or appeared on prospero for a bit. 

[Dagoth Ur]

 

 

Tme and time again FW has said that HH is specifically about the civil war that took place then and the combatants of that civil war, ie loyalists, traitors and their demonic allies.

Pretty much this. This isn't Warhammer 40'000: The Great Crusade, but Warhammer 40'000: The Horus Heresy. It's about the imperial civil war. The presence and relevance - both actual and thematic - of xenos combatants is peripheral at best. Expecting or wanting Xenos rules out of the Horus Heresy is like expecting dedicated Traitor Legion rules out of the Badab War Books - why would they be there if they are literally irrelevant to the conflict at hand?

 

As said above though, if we're talking about actual relevance in the conflict, there probably shouldn't really be a complete Custodes/Talons army, maybe small units that join the army like knights errant, but we shouldn't be seeing custodes as much as we do. Most of the time they where either getting their teeth kicked in by daemons, or appeared on prospero for a bit. 

 

We shouldn't be seeing factions that partook in three of the most crucial engagements of the era - the Burning of Prospero, the Webway War and the Siege of Terra?

 

....What?

 

The fact that so many people play them is not the issue at hand when their existence is legitimized by being written into the conflicts - otherwise we might as well complain that nearly everyone and their mother plays Space Marines in 40k proper. They are thematic and actual part of the conflict, in numbers great enough to be relevant to the engagements in question. Xenos are not.

[m0nolith]

 

 

Tme and time again FW has said that HH is specifically about the civil war that took place then and the combatants of that civil war, ie loyalists, traitors and their demonic allies.

Pretty much this. This isn't Warhammer 40'000: The Great Crusade, but Warhammer 40'000: The Horus Heresy. It's about the imperial civil war. The presence and relevance - both actual and thematic - of xenos combatants is peripheral at best. Expecting or wanting Xenos rules out of the Horus Heresy is like expecting dedicated Traitor Legion rules out of the Badab War Books - why would they be there if they are literally irrelevant to the conflict at hand?

 

As said above though, if we're talking about actual relevance in the conflict, there probably shouldn't really be a complete Custodes/Talons army, maybe small units that join the army like knights errant, but we shouldn't be seeing custodes as much as we do. Most of the time they where either getting their teeth kicked in by daemons, or appeared on prospero for a bit. 

 

By your logic everyone should be playing nothing but Militia/Cults and Imperial Army given how they were the vast majority of the combatants that took part in that conflict. Astartes numbered around two million while there were untold billions of baseline humans that took part in that war. 

 

As far as to the impact of Talons forces, the Webway war was one of the largest and longest battles of the Heresy, lasting for literal years, and even though they took 90% casualties given they were fighting a literal infinite horde of Daemons plus traitor Astartes and at least one traitor Titan Legio, they still somehow managed to hold the line. This is of course in addition the Porpero and a myriad of smaller detachments that were operating solo or attached to other Legions (ie Book 8, the force that was attached to the BA), not to mention the Siege itself.

So when you call into question their relevance in the conflict, then I have to call into question your knowledge of the lore. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by m0nolith

[TheTrans]

 

 

 

Tme and time again FW has said that HH is specifically about the civil war that took place then and the combatants of that civil war, ie loyalists, traitors and their demonic allies.

Pretty much this. This isn't Warhammer 40'000: The Great Crusade, but Warhammer 40'000: The Horus Heresy. It's about the imperial civil war. The presence and relevance - both actual and thematic - of xenos combatants is peripheral at best. Expecting or wanting Xenos rules out of the Horus Heresy is like expecting dedicated Traitor Legion rules out of the Badab War Books - why would they be there if they are literally irrelevant to the conflict at hand?

 

As said above though, if we're talking about actual relevance in the conflict, there probably shouldn't really be a complete Custodes/Talons army, maybe small units that join the army like knights errant, but we shouldn't be seeing custodes as much as we do. Most of the time they where either getting their teeth kicked in by daemons, or appeared on prospero for a bit. 

 

By your logic everyone should be playing nothing but Militia/Cults and Imperial Army given how they were the vast majority of the combatants that took part in that conflict. Astartes numbered around two million while there were untold billions of baseline humans that took part in that war. 

 

As far as to the impact of Talons forces, the Webway war was one of the largest and longest battles of the Heresy, lasting for literal years, and even though they took 90% casualties given they were fighting a literal infinite horde of Daemons plus traitor Astartes and at least one traitor Titan Legio, they still somehow managed to hold the line. This is of course in addition the Porpero and a myriad of smaller detachments that were operating solo or attached to other Legions (ie Book 8, the force that was attached to the BA), not to mention the Siege itself.

So when you say that they didn’t have an impact, then I have to question your knowledge of the lore. 

 

I'm not saying they didn't have an impact, I'm just saying if you go a per-capita basis on 'if they where there' then they weren't there for much of it. 

 

I'd love to see more militia and cult styled armies in the heresy also, makes your marines look more larger than life as they should! 

 

But its just people go 'well there wasn't enough xenos for there them to be battling or represented at all during the heresy' which if you want to run with that, then Custodes shouldn't be a common occurance due to how staggeringly small their numbers are. 

 

I honesty think custodes shouldn't have been introduced as a full army, just by their nature they aren't a strategic force in the slightest and should live as allies, or insert units to larger forces, but they are in and that is fine! It's just when people say no xenos should ever exist in the heresy as they didn't play a role/didn't have the man power to effect much is a bit naff with custodes running around. 

 

Also stuff starts becoming quite nebulous if we want to 'lock in' the heresy, as you certainly start to see the begginings of it prior to the true kick off, while legions are fighting xenos etc.

 

By all means correct me if I'm wrong here, Prospero happened before the Heresy actually kicked off yes? So depending on how anal we get on the dates, Custodes were only active in the webway and during the SoT (outside of smaller like unit operations), so if they are fighting marines, that aren't at the SoT or in the webway, it makes less sense than rando xenos being a pain in the butt. 

 

TL:DR Heresy is a sandbox, I don't think its fair to say 'No Xenos Ever' when other, full fleshed out factions probably played smaller parts, at least on a per-dude basis. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by TheTrans

[Slave to Darkness]

They could add in some of the Xenos mentioned in the books, Mecharachnid and Nephilim etc, but then people will want to use them in 9th edition as well as HH, so it will be basically the same game with 2 different set of rules. Already too much 'lost tech' showing up in 40k, keep the choom for the historical lot.