Ghazghkull Thraka: Prophet of the Waaagh!

[rookie40K]

The audiobook was fantastic! Very fun and entertaining. I really enjoyed this one a lot. Using Makari to tell his story was well done. Voice acting was quality. I recommend this one. Edited March 14, 2022 by rookie40K

[Taliesin]

I started reading some of this and from one of the Twice Dead King books, and this guy can really write.

The hype as BL's big new thing is real I would say, he is quality.

[aa.logan]

Not to be all “there was a thread on this”, but “there was a thread on this”; BL’s fault for leaving such a big gap between publications of issues, I concede.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370312-ghazghkull-thraka-prophet-of-the-waaagh/'> http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370312-ghazghkull-thraka-prophet-of-the-waaagh/

 

Loved it so much I’ll absolutely give the audiobook a listen sooner rather than later

[grailkeeper]

I enjoyed it more than Twice dead king. The discussion on pronouns was a bit... modern. Part of me hoped that it would be written entirely in Ork Speak- a bit like the way Irvine Welsh writes in heavy Glasgow dialect.

 

Could have done with more Orkimedes though. 

[Scribe]

The discussion on pronouns was a bit... modern.

Ugh. BL/GW fail to get books into my hands already, I certainly don't need an injection of this particular branch of modern venom included.

 

As if literally any faction in 40K would care.

 

Probably out of bounds for the forum anyway.

[cheywood]

I feel like there’s been enough moaning about authors having different political/social views over the years, especially around this particular subject. It’s tiresome hearing the same complaints to be honest. This isn’t the place to air thoughts on the matter.

 

Having read the book last year I don’t even remember the discussion on pronouns. It’s more than worth reading whether you agree or disagree with Crowley’s viewpoint.

Edited March 16, 2022 by cheywood

[aa.logan]

 

As if literally any faction in 40K would care.

 

.

For the record,

the discussion is based around the ork’s complete disregard for the concept of gender

so you’re correct, but maybe not in the way you thought.

[Scribe]

 

 

As if literally any faction in 40K would care.

 

.

For the record,

the discussion is based around the ork’s complete disregard for the concept of gender

so you’re correct, but maybe not in the way you thought.

LOL I will take it as confirmation of my position being correct. ;)

[Petitioner's City]

Well there is an element of sexism or mysogyny the orks destabilise - it's good (and very sarcastic) sci-fi that a marine would assume the orks are male, and thus G should be told as a "he" than a "they":

 

, the Deathwatch veteran had found one more bone to pick.

‘Ghazghkull is a he,’ he grumbled, wagging a finger at Biter and receiving an uncertain grunt in reply. ‘You keep saying they,’ Hendriksen clarified, ‘but Ghazghkull is a he.’

‘But… they… he is not a man?’ said Biter, their brow-ridge creased in bafflement. Falx cut in then, before another messy debate could ensue.

‘We’ve been through this, Orm. Orks have no… reproductive anatomy, and consequently no understanding of sex or gender.’

‘Some of us understand sexangender,’ interrupted Biter, keen as ever to demonstrate their unusual expertise in humans. ‘I find it all… quite funny.’

‘Silence, ork,’ Falx snapped, impatient to get back on track. ‘From now on, Ghazghkull is a he, whether it makes sense or not.’

‘As you wish,’ the interpreter said, casually inspecting the rust-eaten buckles on the sleeve of their greatcoat, then turning to address the gretchin in their own tongue. ‘Smakh-snohtt-rhunt. Miff-baahk. Lug-ug-bohss’gihtt,Ghaz’ghk’ull ogh-nahr… “Boyz”.’

At that, the gretchin broke out into frantic, snivelling yelps, which Falx would have taken for the onset of some sort of mental collapse if she hadn’t known it was laughter, and which prompted a snort of amusement from Biter. But the interpreter knew they had pushed their luck with the aside, and after one look at Falx’s face, urged the smaller creature on in a language they could all understand: a vicious blow to the temple.

 

As always do remember BL writers are scifi writers, and in the British context chose to write in a genre which isn't escapist, but has a strong critical and culturally engaged heritage.

[byrd9999]

Just for discussion, if Orks have no concept of sex or gender, they wouldn't use a plural pronoun to describe a singular being. More likely they'd use "it", surely?

[Roomsky]

Well, I'm sure this asanine line of discussion is going to get nuked at some point, so I may as well go hard.

 

The Gothic languages are not English. It is a quirk of English to use a plural pronoun as a singular pronoun when referring to a person without gender. The Imperium would surely have it's own word for a person without apparent gender, as they frequently need to be diplomatic with a bunch of machine-people who might not appreciate being referred to as "it." The speakers aren't literally using "they" anymore than they actually use the word "gun." I would like to point out, by the way, how many people got their knickers in a twist when Thorpe used actual neo-pronouns.

 

Greenskins have no gender binary, why would one think in human terms about Ghaz? It would be like one of us meeting a race whose pronouns were based on a type of extra nose that we, as humans, don't even have. You'd probably be taken aback when your Dad was referred to as one of these, considering his singular-nasal status. And you probably wouldn't refer to him as a non-person by defaulting to "it," either.

 

If your goal is to keep politics out of your wargaming circles, then don't roll into a discussion about a novel (which many of us haven't even read) virtue-signalling about a handful of words out of 30,000.

 

Still love you Scribe, don't hate. 

[Scribe]

LOL I'm not touching it. All good Roomsky.

[DarkChaplain]

Just as a point of reference: The latest Cain short, "The Only Good Ork", refers to it/them, as per usual. When Ghazghkull is refered to in Crowley's advent short about Grotsnik putting Ghaz's head back on, both characters are refered to as "he". To Yarrick, Ghazghkull is also a "he".

 

Meanwhile, from what I understand (not having had time to read the novel for myself yet; I just wrapped up The Twice-Dead King: Ruin, though - another Crowley that does a lot of legwork to establish a distinct xenos culture), the pronoun-confusion has less to do with sex & gender than the interpreter being an ork of all things. He knows enough Low Gothic to interpret on a basic level, but he'd not be comparable to the intricacies of the basic Imperial language - or indeed anatomy - as a humie would be.

 

The only thing that confuses me here is why Biter opted for "they" instead of defaulting to "he", considering he's presumably interacting with Astartes of the Deathwatch, and "his" learning would probably have been driven mainly by military action or captive civilians. In other words, I'd consider it more probably to go with "he" as a form of address when his examples are mainly guardsmen (and guardswomen, I suppose) or Space Marines, rather than, say, a friendly Magos Biologis.

 

None of this seems egregious, though. At most, it's a tongue in cheek nudge at the reader to remind them that thinking about Orks in purely human terms is a fool's errand. The way xenos are being refered to has more to do with the observer than the subject - but let's be honest, orks just fit the bill of a big brutish, muscle-packing sponge of testosterone very neatly by design :')

[Roomsky]

Just as a point of reference: The latest Cain short, "The Only Good Ork", refers to it/them, as per usual. When Ghazghkull is refered to in Crowley's advent short about Grotsnik putting Ghaz's head back on, both characters are refered to as "he". To Yarrick, Ghazghkull is also a "he".

 

Meanwhile, from what I understand (not having had time to read the novel for myself yet; I just wrapped up The Twice-Dead King: Ruin, though - another Crowley that does a lot of legwork to establish a distinct xenos culture), the pronoun-confusion has less to do with sex & gender than the interpreter being an ork of all things. He knows enough Low Gothic to interpret on a basic level, but he'd not be comparable to the intricacies of the basic Imperial language - or indeed anatomy - as a humie would be.

 

The only thing that confuses me here is why Biter opted for "they" instead of defaulting to "he", considering he's presumably interacting with Astartes of the Deathwatch, and "his" learning would probably have been driven mainly by military action or captive civilians. In other words, I'd consider it more probably to go with "he" as a form of address when his examples are mainly guardsmen (and guardswomen, I suppose) or Space Marines, rather than, say, a friendly Magos Biologis.

 

None of this seems egregious, though. At most, it's a tongue in cheek nudge at the reader to remind them that thinking about Orks in purely human terms is a fool's errand. The way xenos are being refered to has more to do with the observer than the subject - but let's be honest, orks just fit the bill of a big brutish, muscle-packing sponge of testosterone very neatly by design :')

 

That is a very reasonable counterpoint. I think you hit to the heart of the matter though - Crowley's poking fun at our... anthropomorphization? Humanification? Of completely inhuman xenos. His commitment to humour and xenos POV is honestly why his books are so brilliant, to me.

 

I'm super looking forward to this TBH. Crowley's Necrons are superb and I'm stoked to read his orks.

[DarkChaplain]

I'm flip-flopping between wanting to read Reign or Ghaz next. I had a bit of a slow start on Ruin, but once I got invested, things were a blast. What I least expected was the rather extreme level of body horror Nate managed to build into the metal dudes.

 

And fun fact: the absence of female Necrons in Ruin appears to be down to internal lore confusion, not an oversight by Crowley. Apparently the topic wasn't actually settled til after he was done with the novel. At least that's what he seemed to say in a Reddit comment a while back.

 

....and I shudder at the typos / grammar errors I made up there. I really shouldn't write replies while watching press conferences re: current events, it messes with me.

[sitnam]

I just finished this, and it was awesome. In context, the whole "Orks don't understand gender" thing was actually pretty funny and not done in any obnoxious way. Can't wait to see more xenos books from Crowley. I loved how he represented Blood Axes in particular with Biter

[byrd9999]

I just finished this, and it was awesome. In context, the whole "Orks don't understand gender" thing was actually pretty funny and not done in any obnoxious way. Can't wait to see more xenos books from Crowley. I loved how he represented Blood Axes in particular with Biter

If you enjoyed Biter/Taktikus and Crowley's Blood Axes, you should (if you haven't already) check out his Inferno! short story, The Enemy of My Enemy, and his Xmas short Mad Dok.

 

Biter/Taktikus gets a brief mention in Mad Dok, but is the star of TEoME, which is one of the best BL shorts I have ever read (the scene in the map room is perfection). The events of TEoME are also referenced in Ghazghkull Thraka, when Biter starts to regale everyone with his exploits, but gets interrupted. You also understand why Biter/Taktikus is needed as the translator in GT, because he can speak Low Gothic.

[caladancid]

I am a HUGE fan of Nate Crowley's Necron books and stories, and I think because of that I was a bit more forgiving to this than I otherwise would have been.

 

It is a really entertaining novel, for sure. In my head for some reason, most of the novel was colorized like the video game Borderlands with the same sort of tone. I did feel like it wandered around and never had much substance, maybe that is on purpose (see I am doing it again) but it seemed the story lacked weight.

 

I never felt the characters stood out in this they way they did with the Necrons. I wanted to think more of a psychic female Ogryn, but she felt more like a plot device to enhance the Space Wolf.

 

Anyway, I definitely would recommend buying and reading. Just don't expect the same sort of jaw dropping that occurs in The Twice-Dead King.

[Knockagh]

I am a HUGE fan of Nate Crowley's Necron books and stories, and I think because of that I was a bit more forgiving to this than I otherwise would have been.

 

It is a really entertaining novel, for sure. In my head for some reason, most of the novel was colorized like the video game Borderlands with the same sort of tone. I did feel like it wandered around and never had much substance, maybe that is on purpose (see I am doing it again) but it seemed the story lacked weight.

 

I never felt the characters stood out in this they way they did with the Necrons. I wanted to think more of a psychic female Ogryn, but she felt more like a plot device to enhance the Space Wolf.

 

Anyway, I definitely would recommend buying and reading. Just don't expect the same sort of jaw dropping that occurs in The Twice-Dead King.

I was the exact opposite! I found the necron books great but struggled with a host of issues in them with the portrayal of the necrons. I’m not knocking it as it was a great read but it didnt compare to Thraka. I loved everything about this book. I found Nate did a much better job of making the alien nature of the ork much more apparent than his necron stuff which came across very human in lots of ways.

 

He a great writer and I can’t wait to read the second necron book.

[caladancid]

 

I am a HUGE fan of Nate Crowley's Necron books and stories, and I think because of that I was a bit more forgiving to this than I otherwise would have been.

 

It is a really entertaining novel, for sure. In my head for some reason, most of the novel was colorized like the video game Borderlands with the same sort of tone. I did feel like it wandered around and never had much substance, maybe that is on purpose (see I am doing it again) but it seemed the story lacked weight.

 

I never felt the characters stood out in this they way they did with the Necrons. I wanted to think more of a psychic female Ogryn, but she felt more like a plot device to enhance the Space Wolf.

 

Anyway, I definitely would recommend buying and reading. Just don't expect the same sort of jaw dropping that occurs in The Twice-Dead King.

I was the exact opposite! I found the necron books great but struggled with a host of issues in them with the portrayal of the necrons. I’m not knocking it as it was a great read but it didnt compare to Thraka. I loved everything about this book. I found Nate did a much better job of making the alien nature of the ork much more apparent than his necron stuff which came across very human in lots of ways.

 

He a great writer and I can’t wait to read the second necron book.

 

 

Thats interesting- I am glad you liked it! Bottom line, the more Nate Crowley writes the better off we all are.