Gravis or Terminators vs S5?

[Valkyrion]

When facing a lot of S5, low AP, weaponry, are you better off with a T5 model to make it 4+ to wound, or the 2+/4++ of a terminator to make the save easier?

 

Or are there far too many variables at play to give a firm answer?

[Karhedron]

There are too many variables for a clear cut answer but I can give you an idea. Going from T4 to T5 means going from wounding on a 3+ to a 4+ which is a 25% reduction in casualties.

 

Going from a 3+ save to a 2+ vs AP0 results in a 50% reduction in casualties so vs AP0, Terminators are better. Once the AP starts increasing it become a bit hazier but even here, Terminators have an invulnerable save which helps.

 

Overall I think Terminators are tougher than Gravis but it is a close run thing. Gravis brings some capabilities like Heavy Intercessors in the Troop role and Eradicators for serious melta power. But in a comparison between Aggressors and Terminators, I would probably opt for the Terminators.

[Xenith]

If you're saying 4++ on the terminator, I assume this means you have a storm shield, so it would be 1+/4++? In which case, termies every day. Or are you trying to compare between aggressors and tactical terms for units that fill a similar role?

 

In a vacuum, as analysed by Kar, they're very similar. Aggressors would have more damage output from shooting. A key difference though is in stratagem support. You can chuck transhuman and unyielding on Gravis models to make them tougher - but not against S5 AP0 D1 weapons. 

 

Against the profile above, as Kar says, TDA is better. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Xenith

[Valkyrion]

Apologies with the 4++, that's me mixing my units up.

 

The new tyranid codex looks as though it has easy access to lots of S5 AP-1 weapons, like scything talons (Raveners, Warriors), fleshborers and so on.

 

So a heavy intercessor has a 50/50 chance of ignoring the wound, then a 50/50 chance of saving the wound - so 4 hits become 2 wounds become 1 failed save.

A standard terminator has a 66% chance of being wounded then a 66% of saving the wound - so 4 hits become 3 wounds become 1 failed save. (?)

 

 

If my maths are right then they are equal, but the Gravis is required to roll less dice on average which means less chance of a failed save? Or does probability not work like that?! 

 

I don't know how many S5 AP-1 hits are needed to wound a storm shield terminator. 9? (66% wound, is 6/9,  83% chance to save is 5/6)?

[Karhedron]

If my maths are right then they are equal, but the Gravis is required to roll less dice on average which means less chance of a failed save? Or does probability not work like that?!

No, probability has no memory.

 

I don't know how many S5 AP-1 hits are needed to wound a storm shield terminator. 9? (66% wound, is 6/9,  83% chance to save is 5/6)?

Yes, that is correct. They will need 9 hits to put 1 wound on SS/TDA, 4.5 hits to put a wound on regular TDA and 4 to put a wound on a Gravis Marine.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Karhedron

[Xenith]

Well, for 1 failed save on a 1+/4++, you need 6 wounds, which is 9 hits, which is 18 shots. Gaunts aren't going to be shooting terminators if they can help it, likewise warriors into terms is a bad matchup unless they have boneswords, in which case you're against S7/8, AP-2, D2. 

 

I think the main threat to heavy infantry from nids will be (outside mortals) monsters with ap-3 D3 weapons - terms will get a 4++/5++, while gravis gets a 6+ save, however THP will half the wounds, and the gravis strat will half the number of models that die to this. 

[Karhedron]

Just a note, the Gravis strat (UNYIELDING IN THE FACE OF THE FOE) only works vs 1D attacks so makes them tougher than Termies vs small-arms attacks but would not help against multi-damage attacks.

[Xenith]

Oops, I'm getting unyielding mixed up - I thought it was a -1D strat for GRAVIS? But it's actually +1 sv against D1 - so gravis is better if you're willing to spend CP. 

 

Did marines ever have a -1D strat for gravis, or am I going crazy?

[Karhedron]

Did marines ever have a -1D strat for gravis, or am I going crazy?

I can't remember if it was part of the 8.5E codex but I don't think so.

[chapter master 454]

A lot of factors here. The difference between making wounding hard or making saving easier is basically just putting the same effect in a different place.

 

If we assume it's another space marine shooting it:

 

0.67*0.5*0.33

vs.

0.67*0.67*0.17

(remember to math in the perspective of the attacker, he wants you to FAIL your save)

 

The maths works out the same in probability really. So in this case it doesn't matter really in a vacuum however there are other factors. First off being harder to wound makes re-roll 1s not as good. That would put a point in favour of gravis (for being defensively better).

But then the issue is we are talking about only 1 specific point about the units when there are entire panoplies of things within the game that both hurt the units. If you get hit with poison attacks, toughness means nothing and armour becomes more important but if you are getting hit with high AP low strength weapons then toughness becomes important.

 

Ultimately, it makes no difference really. I mean, if we are talking Heavy Bolters slamming into the target, Terminators with storm shields win this argument. Despite having a 1 level worse deal against the wound roll, they have 2 levels better saving the hits than the Gravis. However if only just talking basic terminators vs. gravis, they are in effect the same durability. And by the time AP is hitting this Invulnerable of terminators, it would of been ignoring gravis armour anyway (we are talking we need to see AP4 before the invulnerable kicks in and at that point its a runaway success for terminators).

[XeonDragon]

I've done heaps of mathhammer on gravis v terminators in terms of durability. I use a 'basket' method in that I use a basket of 10 different weapon profiles to determine the average number of shots from that basket to kill a model. Sometimes you'll get shot with bolters, sometimes with las cannons. 

 

In short, they have very similar overall or "average" durability, that said there are two key differences:

1. Terminators are more durable against high AP weapons, thanks to having a least a 5++
2. Gravis can use transhuman and/or unyielding in the face of the foe. 

So if you disregard CP, I think terminators are, overall and on average, slightly more durable. However, if you factor in using CP, I think gravis are. In terms of unit comparisons, I spent ages  thinking about and many games testing the difference between Aggressors and various flavours of terminators. I short, unless you spend CP on terminators (fury of the first), Aggressors do more damage in shooting and melee. They can also advance and shoot. However, Terminators will last longer and hence inflict more damage in subsequent turns than Aggressors unless you spend CP on the Aggressors to buff their survivability. 

 

So terminators can be as deadly as aggressors if you spend CP and aggressors can be as durable as terminators if you spend CP. Six one way half a dozen the other. 

 

Given the trend to increased AP values, I think a case can be made for terminators as the better "overall" durability pick. That said, there is also a trend to increased S of weapons (looking at you, fleshborer-wielding tyranids) so really, it is back to square one.

 

Personally, if I had to choose to take only one type of armour, I would take terminators if for no other reason than a ++ save is great, I like units that can do decent work or survive without being fed CP regularly and they give a native option to deepstrike, which gravis (other than Inceptors) don't provide. Aggressors can, however, advance and shoot which can be useful for grabbing objectives or in chapters that can natively or via stratagems advance and charge. So overall I think terminators might be a tad more flexible, a tad less CP hungry, similar durability, better resistance to both low AP weapons (via 2+) and high AP weapons (via ++). In some chapters however, I think aggressors would be the better pick (white scars, salamanders, maybe even blood angels as they get +1 advance and charge).

Edited March 24, 2022 by XeonDragon