Using daemonic units with Night Lords

[Bulwyf]

=][= Due to interesting discussion, this thread was split off of the 9e CSM Marines thread - http://www.bolterand...-csm/?p=5732831 - as it was off topic there. =][=

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

 

I will say, venomcrawlers lookin real dope. I am excited.

I am really digging the vemomcrawler for my Night lords army. Everything about it complement our rules.

 

 

We are all free to make our armies as we see fit but I've noticed this post and another where you want to play demons and demon vehicles. NL are one of the legions that do not really use demons or demon vehicles. They look down on chaos and those who use it as weak and fools. My NL army has one demon prince to represent the Painted Count. That's it for demons or demon vehicles.  

I'm worried that NL seem to be forced to take units that run completely counter to their own fluff and lore. NL is about Raptors, Warp talons, jump pack chaos lords and terminators with dual LC. That's about as fluffy as you can get for NL. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Xenith
Thread split

[Lord Abaia]

 

 

I will say, venomcrawlers lookin real dope. I am excited.

I am really digging the vemomcrawler for my Night lords army. Everything about it complement our rules.

 

 

We are all free to make our armies as we see fit but I've noticed this post and another where you want to play demons and demon vehicles. NL are one of the legions that do not really use demons or demon vehicles. They look down on chaos and those who use it as weak and fools. My NL army has one demon prince to represent the Painted Count. That's it for demons or demon vehicles.  

I'm worried that NL seem to be forced to take units that run completely counter to their own fluff and lore. NL is about Raptors, Warp talons, jump pack chaos lords and terminators with dual LC. That's about as fluffy as you can get for NL. 

 

 

I can't stand this kind of attitude about Night Lords (or Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, etc.). If you want your guys to not have daemons that's totally fine, but why on earth would you make a post to call out someone for being excited about a unit that *you* don't think fits a faction? And it's not even internally consistent. You go on to explain the exception you've made for your daemon prince and then list Warp Talons (a daemonic unit) as one of the iconic units for the faction. The army is *Chaos* Space Marines, I will never understand the online shaming I see for people not hamstringing themselves by playing a sterilized, warp-free 30K list.

[Banks]

 

 

 

I will say, venomcrawlers lookin real dope. I am excited.

 

I am really digging the vemomcrawler for my Night lords army. Everything about it complement our rules.

 

We are all free to make our armies as we see fit but I've noticed this post and another where you want to play demons and demon vehicles. NL are one of the legions that do not really use demons or demon vehicles. They look down on chaos and those who use it as weak and fools. My NL army has one demon prince to represent the Painted Count. That's it for demons or demon vehicles.  

I'm worried that NL seem to be forced to take units that run completely counter to their own fluff and lore. NL is about Raptors, Warp talons, jump pack chaos lords and terminators with dual LC. That's about as fluffy as you can get for NL.

 

I can't stand this kind of attitude about Night Lords (or Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, etc.). If you want your guys to not have daemons that's totally fine, but why on earth would you make a post to call out someone for being excited about a unit that *you* don't think fits a faction? And it's not even internally consistent. You go on to explain the exception you've made for your daemon prince and then list Warp Talons (a daemonic unit) as one of the iconic units for the faction. The army is *Chaos* Space Marines, I will never understand the online shaming I see for people not hamstringing themselves by playing a sterilized, warp-free 30K list.

Let's not forget that the largest warband for the Night Lords is led by a Daemon Prince. I mean you can make your own fluff for the list. For the longest time I tried to avoid using daemons in my Night Lords list, I've now pivoted to using Daemon Engines. My lord is. Lord Discordant with venomcrawlers and a defiler, the way I see it they use them similar to Iron Warriors where they beat these daemons into submission, and use them as their own tools, sacrifice them with no hesitations

[Bulwyf]

 

 

 

I will say, venomcrawlers lookin real dope. I am excited.

I am really digging the vemomcrawler for my Night lords army. Everything about it complement our rules.

 

 

We are all free to make our armies as we see fit but I've noticed this post and another where you want to play demons and demon vehicles. NL are one of the legions that do not really use demons or demon vehicles. They look down on chaos and those who use it as weak and fools. My NL army has one demon prince to represent the Painted Count. That's it for demons or demon vehicles.  

I'm worried that NL seem to be forced to take units that run completely counter to their own fluff and lore. NL is about Raptors, Warp talons, jump pack chaos lords and terminators with dual LC. That's about as fluffy as you can get for NL. 

 

 

I can't stand this kind of attitude about Night Lords (or Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, etc.). If you want your guys to not have daemons that's totally fine, but why on earth would you make a post to call out someone for being excited about a unit that *you* don't think fits a faction? And it's not even internally consistent. You go on to explain the exception you've made for your daemon prince and then list Warp Talons (a daemonic unit) as one of the iconic units for the faction. The army is *Chaos* Space Marines, I will never understand the online shaming I see for people not hamstringing themselves by playing a sterilized, warp-free 30K list.

 

 

It is almost like I didn't start my post saying we are all free to make our armies as we see fit. Oh wait. I did.  Your righteous indignation is uncalled for. If you know the fluff for NL you will see that they don't really use demons or demon vehicles.  So anyone is free to use whatever their units are eligible to take. But there's also fluff concerns for those who care about it. 

 

You mention the demon prince and warp talons as exceptions. That is exactly what they are. Exceptions not the rule. The Painted Count is in the current fluff as a DP which makes it fluffy to take a DP to represent him since he does not have his own model. 

 

You also seem to have missed my other point. I don't want to be forced to take demon units because they are the only units worth taking because of rules or points. That is a valid concern. You shouldn't be forced to take units that violate the fluff of the army you collect just to have a chance to win games. 

[Sandviper]

 

 

 

 

I will say, venomcrawlers lookin real dope. I am excited.

I am really digging the vemomcrawler for my Night lords army. Everything about it complement our rules.

 

 

We are all free to make our armies as we see fit but I've noticed this post and another where you want to play demons and demon vehicles. NL are one of the legions that do not really use demons or demon vehicles. They look down on chaos and those who use it as weak and fools. My NL army has one demon prince to represent the Painted Count. That's it for demons or demon vehicles.  

I'm worried that NL seem to be forced to take units that run completely counter to their own fluff and lore. NL is about Raptors, Warp talons, jump pack chaos lords and terminators with dual LC. That's about as fluffy as you can get for NL. 

 

 

I can't stand this kind of attitude about Night Lords (or Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, etc.). If you want your guys to not have daemons that's totally fine, but why on earth would you make a post to call out someone for being excited about a unit that *you* don't think fits a faction? And it's not even internally consistent. You go on to explain the exception you've made for your daemon prince and then list Warp Talons (a daemonic unit) as one of the iconic units for the faction. The army is *Chaos* Space Marines, I will never understand the online shaming I see for people not hamstringing themselves by playing a sterilized, warp-free 30K list.

 

 

It is almost like I didn't start my post saying we are all free to make our armies as we see fit. Oh wait. I did.  Your righteous indignation is uncalled for. If you know the fluff for NL you will see that they don't really use demons or demon vehicles.  So anyone is free to use whatever their units are eligible to take. But there's also fluff concerns for those who care about it. 

 

You mention the demon prince and warp talons as exceptions. That is exactly what they are. Exceptions not the rule. The Painted Count is in the current fluff as a DP which makes it fluffy to take a DP to represent him since he does not have his own model. 

 

You also seem to have missed my other point. I don't want to be forced to take demon units because they are the only units worth taking because of rules or points. That is a valid concern. You shouldn't be forced to take units that violate the fluff of the army you collect just to have a chance to win games. 

 

No one is forcing you to take anything. Play with the units you want to play. And you starting your post the way you did would hold weight if it wasnt followed with "but." You can play your army how you want BUT. Im not racist BUT. You can paint how you want BUT. Following a statement up with "but" the way you did nullifies the first part of the statement bud. 

[Bulwyf]

 

 

 

 

 

I will say, venomcrawlers lookin real dope. I am excited.

I am really digging the vemomcrawler for my Night lords army. Everything about it complement our rules.

 

 

We are all free to make our armies as we see fit but I've noticed this post and another where you want to play demons and demon vehicles. NL are one of the legions that do not really use demons or demon vehicles. They look down on chaos and those who use it as weak and fools. My NL army has one demon prince to represent the Painted Count. That's it for demons or demon vehicles.  

I'm worried that NL seem to be forced to take units that run completely counter to their own fluff and lore. NL is about Raptors, Warp talons, jump pack chaos lords and terminators with dual LC. That's about as fluffy as you can get for NL. 

 

 

I can't stand this kind of attitude about Night Lords (or Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, etc.). If you want your guys to not have daemons that's totally fine, but why on earth would you make a post to call out someone for being excited about a unit that *you* don't think fits a faction? And it's not even internally consistent. You go on to explain the exception you've made for your daemon prince and then list Warp Talons (a daemonic unit) as one of the iconic units for the faction. The army is *Chaos* Space Marines, I will never understand the online shaming I see for people not hamstringing themselves by playing a sterilized, warp-free 30K list.

 

 

It is almost like I didn't start my post saying we are all free to make our armies as we see fit. Oh wait. I did.  Your righteous indignation is uncalled for. If you know the fluff for NL you will see that they don't really use demons or demon vehicles.  So anyone is free to use whatever their units are eligible to take. But there's also fluff concerns for those who care about it. 

 

You mention the demon prince and warp talons as exceptions. That is exactly what they are. Exceptions not the rule. The Painted Count is in the current fluff as a DP which makes it fluffy to take a DP to represent him since he does not have his own model. 

 

You also seem to have missed my other point. I don't want to be forced to take demon units because they are the only units worth taking because of rules or points. That is a valid concern. You shouldn't be forced to take units that violate the fluff of the army you collect just to have a chance to win games. 

 

No one is forcing you to take anything. Play with the units you want to play. And you starting your post the way you did would hold weight if it wasnt followed with "but." You can play your army how you want BUT. Im not racist BUT. You can paint how you want BUT. Following a statement up with "but" the way you did nullifies the first part of the statement bud. 

 

 

Only if someone lacks reading comprehension would they think that. I said we can all play whatever units we want. It is a pretty simple to understand statement.

 

I added the rest to show the concerns about NL fluff. Some people do not care about fluff. That's certainly valid and their right to do so. Some of us do care about fluff and how playing fluffy will be potentially be penalized by it on the table. And don't tell me about the "play the units you want to play" wow really? No crap Sherlock. But can I play the units I want to play and also have it be a valid army on the table? That's a legitimate concern.

 

Hearing the only leaker in here who plays NL talk in several posts about how he can't wait to play demon units is concerning for NL players, like myself, that don't want to use them. I don't know how that is so hard to understand BUT feel free to stand on a soapbox about racism, painting and whatever other straw men you wish to insert.

[Isengrin]

 

 

 

 

 

I will say, venomcrawlers lookin real dope. I am excited.

I am really digging the vemomcrawler for my Night lords army. Everything about it complement our rules.

 

 

We are all free to make our armies as we see fit but I've noticed this post and another where you want to play demons and demon vehicles. NL are one of the legions that do not really use demons or demon vehicles. They look down on chaos and those who use it as weak and fools. My NL army has one demon prince to represent the Painted Count. That's it for demons or demon vehicles.  

I'm worried that NL seem to be forced to take units that run completely counter to their own fluff and lore. NL is about Raptors, Warp talons, jump pack chaos lords and terminators with dual LC. That's about as fluffy as you can get for NL. 

 

 

I can't stand this kind of attitude about Night Lords (or Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, etc.). If you want your guys to not have daemons that's totally fine, but why on earth would you make a post to call out someone for being excited about a unit that *you* don't think fits a faction? And it's not even internally consistent. You go on to explain the exception you've made for your daemon prince and then list Warp Talons (a daemonic unit) as one of the iconic units for the faction. The army is *Chaos* Space Marines, I will never understand the online shaming I see for people not hamstringing themselves by playing a sterilized, warp-free 30K list.

 

 

It is almost like I didn't start my post saying we are all free to make our armies as we see fit. Oh wait. I did.  Your righteous indignation is uncalled for. If you know the fluff for NL you will see that they don't really use demons or demon vehicles.  So anyone is free to use whatever their units are eligible to take. But there's also fluff concerns for those who care about it. 

 

You mention the demon prince and warp talons as exceptions. That is exactly what they are. Exceptions not the rule. The Painted Count is in the current fluff as a DP which makes it fluffy to take a DP to represent him since he does not have his own model. 

 

You also seem to have missed my other point. I don't want to be forced to take demon units because they are the only units worth taking because of rules or points. That is a valid concern. You shouldn't be forced to take units that violate the fluff of the army you collect just to have a chance to win games. 

 

No one is forcing you to take anything. Play with the units you want to play. And you starting your post the way you did would hold weight if it wasnt followed with "but." You can play your army how you want BUT. Im not racist BUT. You can paint how you want BUT. Following a statement up with "but" the way you did nullifies the first part of the statement bud. 

 

Saying we're all free to do whatever, but... is like the "with all due respect" formula followed by something incredibly disrespectful. 

 

Anyway, I can see were getting locked into a single play style would be highly annonying but just because a daemon engine is getting an upgrade doesn't automatically translate to a restricting army composition. Even if you're playing competitively. Hopefully, the codex will allow for several fun play styles. And the fluff argument is just silly, sorry. There's one NL warband were you can make an argument that they are disgusted by Chaos and daemons but, firstly, they didn't spend a lot of time in the warp which meant they were maybe 100 years removed from the heresy and secondly, they were an outlier. NL can be as degenerated as the rest.

 

But after seeing the teasers today I am so incredibly HYPED! Screw the rules, this will be a blast with the new minis!

[Sandviper]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will say, venomcrawlers lookin real dope. I am excited.

I am really digging the vemomcrawler for my Night lords army. Everything about it complement our rules.

We are all free to make our armies as we see fit but I've noticed this post and another where you want to play demons and demon vehicles. NL are one of the legions that do not really use demons or demon vehicles. They look down on chaos and those who use it as weak and fools. My NL army has one demon prince to represent the Painted Count. That's it for demons or demon vehicles.

I'm worried that NL seem to be forced to take units that run completely counter to their own fluff and lore. NL is about Raptors, Warp talons, jump pack chaos lords and terminators with dual LC. That's about as fluffy as you can get for NL.

I can't stand this kind of attitude about Night Lords (or Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, etc.). If you want your guys to not have daemons that's totally fine, but why on earth would you make a post to call out someone for being excited about a unit that *you* don't think fits a faction? And it's not even internally consistent. You go on to explain the exception you've made for your daemon prince and then list Warp Talons (a daemonic unit) as one of the iconic units for the faction. The army is *Chaos* Space Marines, I will never understand the online shaming I see for people not hamstringing themselves by playing a sterilized, warp-free 30K list.

It is almost like I didn't start my post saying we are all free to make our armies as we see fit. Oh wait. I did. Your righteous indignation is uncalled for. If you know the fluff for NL you will see that they don't really use demons or demon vehicles. So anyone is free to use whatever their units are eligible to take. But there's also fluff concerns for those who care about it.

 

You mention the demon prince and warp talons as exceptions. That is exactly what they are. Exceptions not the rule. The Painted Count is in the current fluff as a DP which makes it fluffy to take a DP to represent him since he does not have his own model.

 

You also seem to have missed my other point. I don't want to be forced to take demon units because they are the only units worth taking because of rules or points. That is a valid concern. You shouldn't be forced to take units that violate the fluff of the army you collect just to have a chance to win games.

No one is forcing you to take anything. Play with the units you want to play. And you starting your post the way you did would hold weight if it wasnt followed with "but." You can play your army how you want BUT. Im not racist BUT. You can paint how you want BUT. Following a statement up with "but" the way you did nullifies the first part of the statement bud.

Only if someone lacks reading comprehension would they think that. I said we can all play whatever units we want. It is a pretty simple to understand statement.

 

I added the rest to show the concerns about NL fluff. Some people do not care about fluff. That's certainly valid and their right to do so. Some of us do care about fluff and how playing fluffy will be potentially be penalized by it on the table. And don't tell me about the "play the units you want to play" wow really? No crap Sherlock. But can I play the units I want to play and also have it be a valid army on the table? That's a legitimate concern.

 

Hearing the only leaker in here who plays NL talk in several posts about how he can't wait to play demon units is concerning for NL players, like myself, that don't want to use them. I don't know how that is so hard to understand BUT feel free to stand on a soapbox about racism, painting and whatever other straw men you wish to insert.

If you say so buddy like multiple people didn't take you for exactly what you meant. No reason to get bent out of shape on leaks and rumors from someone who may have an older version. Leave the thread if you have a problem with the individual giving us the information.

 

I like playing fluffy. But sorry GW doesn't balance around fluff. So you can find a way to build an army balanced around both and be okay. I feel like you're capable.

[Bulwyf]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will say, venomcrawlers lookin real dope. I am excited.

I am really digging the vemomcrawler for my Night lords army. Everything about it complement our rules.

We are all free to make our armies as we see fit but I've noticed this post and another where you want to play demons and demon vehicles. NL are one of the legions that do not really use demons or demon vehicles. They look down on chaos and those who use it as weak and fools. My NL army has one demon prince to represent the Painted Count. That's it for demons or demon vehicles.

I'm worried that NL seem to be forced to take units that run completely counter to their own fluff and lore. NL is about Raptors, Warp talons, jump pack chaos lords and terminators with dual LC. That's about as fluffy as you can get for NL.

I can't stand this kind of attitude about Night Lords (or Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, etc.). If you want your guys to not have daemons that's totally fine, but why on earth would you make a post to call out someone for being excited about a unit that *you* don't think fits a faction? And it's not even internally consistent. You go on to explain the exception you've made for your daemon prince and then list Warp Talons (a daemonic unit) as one of the iconic units for the faction. The army is *Chaos* Space Marines, I will never understand the online shaming I see for people not hamstringing themselves by playing a sterilized, warp-free 30K list.

It is almost like I didn't start my post saying we are all free to make our armies as we see fit. Oh wait. I did. Your righteous indignation is uncalled for. If you know the fluff for NL you will see that they don't really use demons or demon vehicles. So anyone is free to use whatever their units are eligible to take. But there's also fluff concerns for those who care about it.

 

You mention the demon prince and warp talons as exceptions. That is exactly what they are. Exceptions not the rule. The Painted Count is in the current fluff as a DP which makes it fluffy to take a DP to represent him since he does not have his own model.

 

You also seem to have missed my other point. I don't want to be forced to take demon units because they are the only units worth taking because of rules or points. That is a valid concern. You shouldn't be forced to take units that violate the fluff of the army you collect just to have a chance to win games.

No one is forcing you to take anything. Play with the units you want to play. And you starting your post the way you did would hold weight if it wasnt followed with "but." You can play your army how you want BUT. Im not racist BUT. You can paint how you want BUT. Following a statement up with "but" the way you did nullifies the first part of the statement bud.

Only if someone lacks reading comprehension would they think that. I said we can all play whatever units we want. It is a pretty simple to understand statement.

 

I added the rest to show the concerns about NL fluff. Some people do not care about fluff. That's certainly valid and their right to do so. Some of us do care about fluff and how playing fluffy will be potentially be penalized by it on the table. And don't tell me about the "play the units you want to play" wow really? No crap Sherlock. But can I play the units I want to play and also have it be a valid army on the table? That's a legitimate concern.

 

Hearing the only leaker in here who plays NL talk in several posts about how he can't wait to play demon units is concerning for NL players, like myself, that don't want to use them. I don't know how that is so hard to understand BUT feel free to stand on a soapbox about racism, painting and whatever other straw men you wish to insert.

If you say so buddy like multiple people didn't take you for exactly what you meant. No reason to get bent out of shape on leaks and rumors from someone who may have an older version. Leave the thread if you have a problem with the individual giving us the information.

 

I like playing fluffy. But sorry GW doesn't balance around fluff. So you can find a way to build an army balanced around both and be okay. I feel like you're capable.

 

 

I will say this and stop this digression from going further. I have *zero* problems with Clockworkchris. Zero.  I have thanked him for sharing this information and will do say again: thank you Clockworkchris for sharing this information with us. If I could give him a hearty handshake or a hug over the internet I would. Sincerely.  My only concern that people seem to be confusing or not getting is that as a fluffy NL player I am concerned that he, as a fellow NL player, only has talked about demon units that he wants to play with. That is all.  Since he has more access to information than we do it seems as if the other units are not any good in comparison. If I am wrong I hope he enlightens me and the rest of us.

 

I am not in any way attacking him for his choice of units, his army selection or any thing about him as a person or as a fellow player. I don't know how anyone could think I did but hopefully this clarifies things for everyone especially Clockworkchris.

 

I will stop posting about this digression and ask others to do as well so the thread can continue about leaks/rumors about the codex and not this.

[Petitioner's City]

Also I think as ADB emphasized continuously, just because a portion of a legion acts X, doesn't mean others act y. Some night lords don't like daemons, but clearly others do! It was the artificial limitations of the Index Astartes/3.5 era - and very little else - that has left this lingering perception, I think, that *all* night lords are less into their gods and daemons?

 

In 2nd, we are told:

 

 

Unlike most of the Traitor Legions, the Night Lords serve no particular Chaos God. they regard their fellow Chaos Space Marines with the same cynicism and contempt they reserve for those loyal to the Emperor. Power and material gain are the only things Night Lords worship.

 

A similar text is also found on p. 14 of the codex. 

 

3rd edition moved to a more unreliable representation of this, so you could as a reader doubt it too:

 

 

All of the evidence appears to indicate that they do not worship any of the Chaos gods and have become instead cynical, hard-bitten and frighteningly ruthless warriors who fight for the please of fighting and the rewards it can bring.

 

In their Index Astartes article, there is the following - more nuanced - take than what came in 2004:

 

 

Beliefs 

Night Lords are exceptionally versatile in their use of the forces of Chaos, employing the hell-spawned powers of each of the major Chaos deities with equal favour. It is just as likely that the Night Lords will be seen fighting alongside a group of foul Plague Marines as it is the warriors of the Thousand Sons. However, it has been ascertained that the Night Lords have nothing but scorn for faith in all its forms. whether it be the fanatical bloodlust of the Khornate Berzerker or the devotion of the Imperial creed. The only authority they recognise is that of temporal power and material wealth.

 

Observational evidence would suggest that the only reason the Night Lords fight is for the love of killing and the material rewards this can bring. They take great pleasure in gunning down defenceless prey, especially those too young or sick to stand up to them. It is certainly not for the thrill of battle that they fight, as an army of Night Lords can be expected to try every underhand trick in the book before resorting to honest combat. This is possibly a vestige of their ancestry in the criminal classes of Nostramo where it was commonplace to ruthlessly force the will of the strong upon the weak. 

 

 

 

Then 3.5 added to this with actual rules limiting their chaotic side:

 

 

Originating on a world of perpetual night under the leadership of the Night Haunter, a vigilante who ruled by fear it is unsurprising that the Night Lords are experts in the art of terror. The Emperor was on the verge of dealing with the Night Lords' excesses when the Heresy began. The Night Lords established a brutal reputation on the eastern fringes, attacking by surprise and showing absolutely no mercy to their unfortunate victims. Even the assassination of Night Haunter himself could not stop them. The catalogue of atrocities they have perpetuated and continue to perpetuate are their way of sapping their enemies' will to resist. 

 

Many weak, frightened planetary governors have capitulated rather than face the wrath of the Night Lords: none has ever been spared as a consequence.

 

Night Lord tactics are based on terror. No Legion is as careful as them in severing enemy communications and making visible examples of those who dare to oppose them. Darkness is their ally and they ruthlessly use their innate abilities to give themselves an advantage over their enemies. Aggressive patrolling and surprise raids are their stock in trade, they will patiently win a hundred small victories in order to achieve their objectives rather than pinning everything on one big battle.

 

• Because the Night Lords do not worship the Chaos Powers as gods they are reluctant to enter into Daemonic pacts so there are few Daemons in their armies. Chaos Furies are often enslaved by Raptor Cults, however, and so may be included. Daemon Princes and Possessed Chaos Space Marines are further exceptions as they are essentially Night Lords with Daemonic abilities. 
• Marked models may only bear the Mark of Chaos Undivided. Vehicles may not be dedicated to any of the Chaos Gods in particular. 

 

I think in the 2007 codex there is very little mention of them, but then in 6th:

 

The Night Lords are obsessed with preying upon those weaker than themselves. Since the martyrdom of their Primarch, the Legion has devolved into warbands of cynical, ruthless warriors who live to inspire terror within the teeming masses. The meticulously enacted atrocities they

inflict before each battle weaken the enemy's resolve before the killing blow is delivered. The Night Lords fight for the pleasure of the kill and for material gain, not because of the dictates of any deity- in fact, most of their number look down on the faithful as naive fools. The Night Lords put their faith in the use of fear a~ a weapon, the thrill of the chase, and the feast of murder at hunt's end.

 

In Traitor Legions, it was accepted daemons would be part of the more atheistic army:

 

 

NIGHT LORDS SPECIAL RULES

 

Any Detachment with the Chaos Space Marines Faction can be from one of the  Traitor Legions. A Night Loots Detachment retains the Chaos Space Marines Faction and is treated in all ways as a Chaos Space Marines Detachment, with the following modifications: 

• They cannot include any Unique units. • Units that have a Mark of Chaos cannot be taken.
• Units cannot he upgraded to take any Marks of Chaos.
• All units that can do so must be upgraded to Veterans of the long War, at no additional points cost.
• Any Daemon of Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh that is a Psyker can choose to generate all of their psychic powers from the Discipline of Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh respectively. 

 

Then in 8th, this lovely bit was added, recalling the Index Astartes text:

 

 

FEAR INCARNATE

The Night Lords thrive in sowing terror and confusion amongst the enemy. It is common practice for the Legion to shut down the communications of a target planet and broadcast hideous messages and screams across the airwaves as they begin slaughtering the populace at their leisure. Repeated instances have shown that they will give no quarter, and are entirely bereft of mercy. Any poor soul offering to surrender will have their pleas answered with mutilation and death.

 

Night Haunter’s Legion have no holy crusade, no belief that causes them to spread murder and misery to the worlds they prey upon. Similarly, they have no martial creed, all concept of honour eroded by their age-old habit of recruiting vicious criminals into their ranks.

 

The Night Lords are masters of stealth and infiltration. This skill appears to be innate to the Legion, and comes to the fore during the sick games they play to drive their prey into paroxysms of fear. They are extremely versatile in their use of the forces of Chaos, employing the powers of each of the Dark Gods with equal favour in order to further their horrific agendas

 

More recently, the esoteric and chaotic and indeed daemonic has appeared among several depictions of the legion.

 

This fine gentleman is found in Vigilus Ablaze:

 

 

 

 

Survival of the Cruellest

 

It was towards the end of the War of Nightmares that Praxis Empyrealus rose to power amongst the ranks of the Night Lords. The skull-masked Master of Possession had been Varrus Hekatos’ advisor for years, but the two generally exhibited a cold and seething hatred for one another. Though few amongst the Night Lords knew it, it was Praxis who had set the fires in the formerly quiet Venderan Maze – Hekatos’ base of operations. The leaping flames alerted the Ravenwing to the commander’s presence and, after a costly skirmish where Land Speeders duelled with jump pack-equipped Night Lords in the tightly packed streets, both Hekatos and the Ravenwing Lieutenant Pinyus lay dead.

 

Praxis Empyrealus wasted no time. Summoning a flock of iridescent sky rays and several packs of warpfire-hurling Flamers, he corralled the Land Speeders of the Ravenwing by setting the skies afire. Then, taking an impossible risk by physically touching the Noctilith Crown he had raised at the heart of the Maze, Praxis Empyrealus blasted the agile craft from the sky with a storm of livid purple lightning. When elements from the 3rd and 4th Companies of the Dark Angels closed in, they were met by overlapping fields of bolter fire – the Night Lords had learned every nook and crevice of their lair well. Five Dark Angels died for every Night Lord that fell that day, a ratio that pleased Abaddon enough to overlook the disastrous attack upon Dirkden. The Night Lords withdrew from the front lines after that victory – though they maintained a presence throughout the rest of the war.

 

There is also this text in Faith and Fury:

 

 

RISE OF TERROR

 

The Night Lords welcomed the coming of the Great Rift with relish. Fully half of the Imperium was wreathed in impenetrable darkness while the other half was left in confusion and chaos, leaving the piratical heretics to indulge their every depraved whim. Indeed, the remnant of the 8th Legion, who had been reduced to an existence of piracy and reaving in order to replenish their battle gear and numbers, prospered like never before.

 

Munitorum worlds were stripped bare by nightclad warriors. Several Space Marine fortressmonasteries were raided, gene-seed stolen and armouries emptied, defenders mutilated and ritually slaughtered. Worse still, the legion’s Chaos Sorcerers devised new methods of exploiting Humanity’s weakened state. These methods were as cunning as they were unthinkably cruel; thousands of Astropaths were abducted and subjected to agonising torment, for the sons of Curze had learnt how to use the combined psychic trauma of their victims to create siren signals that would divert or lure stranded Imperial vessels into their clutches.

 

The Night Lords learned to practice this dark art on a grand scale. Entire worlds were transformed into monuments to pain and terror, and the sons of Curze delighted in every gruesome atrocity.

 

This is a bit as part of a hunt between White Scars and Night Lords:

 

 

SCREAMS IN THE VOID

 

Yharas Kine and his Night Lords warband found rich pickings amidst the asteroid field known as the Tears of the Emperor. Broadcasting a terrible psychic signal, they lured their prey into darkness before hunting and tormenting them with sadistic delight. Their latest quarry, however, would not prove such an easy kill.

 

TEARS OF AGONY

 

The Nightmare of Celyx drifted through the Tears of the Emperor, broadcasting its terrible signal across the stars. Following the siren ship closely were the shadowed hulls of Night Lords vessels. As Imperial cruisers and escort ships were dragged off course into the belt, these reaver ships would strike hard and fast, firing boarding hooks and unleashing hunting parties of Heretic Astartes upon their stricken prey. Such was the horror let loose by the Night Lords that the Tears of the Emperor burned blood red. The asteroid field was visible from the surface of Talledus’ war-torn worlds, a ragged wound in the sky that promised a bloody and terrible end.

 

As the battle for the Talledus System raged on, more and more desperately needed reinforcements disappeared. Driven mad by the strength of the psychic broadcast, Navigators were drawn unerringly into the Night Lords’ trap. Astra Militarum generals and officers of the fleet despaired, for every lost ship was a heavy blow to the Imperium’s hopes of containing the Talledus conflict.

 

Salvation came from an unexpected quarter. A strike force of Vanguard Space Marines from the White Scars Chapter, under the command of Jodagha Khan, had been tracking the movements of Yharas Kine’s Night Lords for several months, following the psychic spoor of the Heretic Astartes’ tortured victims. The White Scars had witnessed first-hand the trail of horror that the Heretic Astartes had left in their wake, and their revulsion at the depravity of their fallen brethren was absolute. The Khan’s stealth cruisers followed the flight of the Nightmare of Celyx straight to Talledus, and to the Tears of the Emperor.

 

There the Khan and his battlebrothers found a graveyard of torn and twisted vessels, orbited by flayed, vacuum-frozen corpses still wearing expressions of agony. There was no sign of the siren ship itself, but the sudden shriek of proximity sensors revealed a host of incoming vessels – dagger-shaped Night Lords strike craft raging toward them at full speed.

 

The resulting void battle was swift and brutal. The smaller Night Lords force had approached under the cover of drifting asteroids, and was upon the White Scars before the Space Marines could bring their lance batteries to bear. The cruiser Thunderstone was boarded by several kill-packs of Raptors, who wreaked terrible carnage upon the crew and sabotaged several motive systems before being driven off by squads of White Scars Infiltrators. As soon as the tide of battle turned, the Night Lords vessels slipped back into the impervious cover of the asteroid field.

 

DEATH HUNT

 

The Night Lords had turned the Tears of the Emperor into their hellish playground, mastering the deadly, shifting battleground and turning it against their foes. The White Scars found themselves not only assailed by the Heretic Astartes, but staggered by the devious traps and lures that the Night Lords had assembled throughout the asteroid field – planetoids laced with cyclonic charges and astropathic signals that drew the White Scars into pre-prepared killing zones.

 

Only the multi-spectrum precognition arrays of the White Scars’ stealth cruisers allowed them to navigate a path through the haunted darkness. So began a shadow war of escalating brutality, as the warriors of Chogoris sought to track down their hated foes through a maelstrom of blazing rocks and ruined spaceships. The Night Lords had spared the lives of the Navigators from these gutted vessels, though the survivors found themselves subject to a far worse fate than death. Flayed, agonised and kept alive and conscious by warp magic, they howled their torment into the void. These disruptive, psychic screams obscured the siren signal broadcast by the Nightmare of Celyx, rendering it all but impossible to discern the ship’s exact location.

 

Each of these lures was an ambush site guarded by kill-packs of Night Lords Raptors, Chaos Space Marines and Daemon Engines. Whether they were located on drifting asteroids or the skeletons of dead vessels, every inch of ground was rigged with las-grid traps, scatter mines and booby-trapped corpses. Incursor Squads paid a heavy toll to clear out each ambush site, utilising their Divinator-class auspexes to fashion a full-spectrum analysis of the battlefield and disperse this vital combat data to their battle-brothers. Infiltrator Squads breached the lightless halls of dead ships, hurling smoke grenades and firing disciplined bursts from their augurscoped marksman bolt carbines. The tenets of speed and constant movement, central to the art of warfare practised by the warriors of Chogoris, were stymied by the Night Lords’ devious tricks.

 

Yharas Kine and his contingent – masters of the art of stealth and subterfuge – delighted in the challenge provided by the Vanguard Space Marines. Claws of elite Chaos Terminators launched short-range teleportation strikes into the hearts of the White Scars formations, butchering and eviscerating with lightning claws and power axes. Heldrakes preyed upon the White Scars’ dropships in the vacuum of space, and the nightmarish fiends known as Warp Talons breached the hulls of Space Marine cruisers, running amok in the darkness.

 

For all the cruel ingenuity of the Night Lords’ attacks, the White Scars, under the command of the Khan, adapted with remarkable speed. They feigned desperate retreats, drawing the traitor forces into kill zones of their own. Damaged ships were sacrificed to lure in those Night Lords drunk on the thrill of murder and torture. The ambushers suddenly became the ambushed as White Scars warriors appeared in their midst, yelling blood-curdling war cries and engaging the Heretic Astartes in brutal, close-quarter battles.

 

Yet even as the momentum of battle shifted from hour to hour, the Nightmare of Celyx remained unseen, still broadcasting its demented song. Until the White Scars had cut off every false signal, the desperate fighting within the Tears of the Emperor would continue.

 

Of course, this is totally not addressing figures like these lovely figures:

 

 

 

Krieg Acerbus is a Daemon Prince of Chaos and the Axemaster of the Night Lords.[1c] His warband is the largest of the Night Lords in the galaxy.[2a]

 

 

Vandred, the Exalted - Tzeentchianly gifted and one of the more well-known members of the legion

 

And of course the aforementioned Painted Count among others.

 

Variety is life, I guess?

Edited March 24, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[Bulwyf]

Hey Bulwyf,

 

I didnt take anything the wrong way, but just wanted to add that all the info that I know barring point costs (which i know very little but promised bot to share) I share here. So essentially what I know you know. So my excitement on those models is purely based on the datasheet and my love of those models. As we know the will be stratagems for jump pack units and warp talons deny fall back so those still fit wonderfully well in fluffy and non fluffy NL lists, i am shre there is even more strats/relics/WT that will give us more options.

 

One thing the leaker has said is that all legions are extremely fluffy IW will want to go daemonengines or vehixles and cult of destruction. And WB will want their possesses.

 

So lets just wait and see

 

thank you for understanding. I never meant any ill will just concerned about the non demon units in the codex. I will definitely wait and see. I want all play styles to have an equal chance of winning as I am sure you do as well.

Wouldn't it be cool for Word Bearers to get some special possesd from a strat. Think Red butchers but possesed so Gal Vorbak. 

 

I think they should tbh. They originated the unit and it is totally fluffy for them to have slightly better possessed just like I think NL should have slightly better Raptors or IW with slightly better Oblits or Alpha Legion with slightly better cultists. It totally matches the fluff.

[MegaVolt87]

The legions are riven with factionalism. Your demon spam NL are as valid as the traditionalists, same with legions like IW's etc. 

[Valkia the Bloody]

Uhm....

I decided to start my Night Lords army because I loved the books.

I absolutely love my Night Lords army, because it has soooooo many options.

I can go totally wild with it with conversions and what-not.

My army has many many converted loyalist miniatures that might not look "chaosy" enough because my warband are pirates and stole the armor (and my guys are also not very good artificers, so all that trim just does not happen). Real reason for this- I got a lot of Primaris marines from the Indomitus box and from friends as a gift and converted them.

At the same time, I also have all these demon machines and even an oldschool metal demon prince.

And I think of all of it as a unified army.

Plus, I think it is fluffy as heck.

Reading the books, and listening to "Throne of Lies" makes one thing clear- yes, the Night Lords look down on demons and demon worshippers.

But they have no issue to use any method or tool at hand to spread terror and fear.

There are warbands that are totally given over to the dark gods.

Others that remain "pure".

All of them Night Lords.

So yeah. My army IS fluffy as heck. Even with the converted Primaris. Yes, they are chaosy enough. And also with my demon engines.

I made up my own background and story for my warband, you are welcome to check it out in my Night Lords thread over at "Works in Progress".

I dare you to tell me otherwise.

:p

[Petitioner's City]

Exactly guys! That was the main flaw with 3.5, it locked people into these rather singlevisioned versions of each legion (this was one of Aaron's criticisms of people's view of it, for example).

Instead, as heresy itself revealed as a ruleset, and as a series of source books, you don't need to do that to still convey the character of each legion. It's not like as soon as each legion hit the eye that all that variety in approach, method and the like vanished for each - rather the rules (and our imaginations) have to catch up on that - more so, that when talking about tens and even hundreds of thousands of individuals, *across* time, space and the warp, there will be lots of variety in how different warbands treat with Chaos.

I think I always caution people when "relying" on codex one paragraph summaries - that is, everything I quoted above. You can't describe the doctrinal variation in a hundred thousand members - or even ten thousand, or one thousand, or one hundred - of a single culture or faith group in a single paragraph. Especially not a group without a central authority or single culture, which is basically the legions after the Heresy, or the NL from even during the Heresy (this being a key theme of the NL in the heresy - they fracture and run in a 100 different directions). That was - and remains - a continual point in Aaron's work with Chaos, including his deliberate subversion of expectations with his NL characters and the other warbands they encounter, and how he has subverted our traditional understanding of the Black Legion too.

Diaspora studies are also a good point of reference for this, as basically all legions are now diasporas. Diasporas are very varied, with very diverse continuity or rejection of origin cultures.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[Khornestar]

I don’t think either approach is wrong until one assumes their vision of “supposed to” is more valid or accurate than another interpretation. The background narrative depicts an insanely small fraction of the setting.

 

Ultimately, there are very few rules. No psykers allowed in a World Eaters army is one example. Even then, I’m sure we could find an example where they had to work with or rely on psykers for one reason or another.

[Petitioner's City]

I don’t think either approach is wrong until one assumes their vision of “supposed to” is more valid or accurate than another interpretation. The background narrative depicts an insanely small fraction of the setting.

 

Ultimately, there are very few rules. No psykers allowed in a World Eaters army is one example. Even then, I’m sure we could find an example where they had to work with or rely on psykers for one reason or another.

I also find it interesting when we consider what psychic could actually mean and if we often are too black and white with it - are the bloodwitches in the Blood Pact who create wirewolves khornate psykers, and even if they aren't, from the outside perspective what actually differentiates them from "true" psykers? Similarly, the heresy rules allows the khornate analogue to have psychic powers too, as well as the Malalian analogue. Thus perhaps it continues to be all the more complicated than hard-and-fast, black-and-white statements tend to suggest?

[Paradigm]

I think this is an interesting back and forth. A lot of folks seem to think Night Lords don’t use chaos.

 

However the fluff really doesn’t support this at all. They hate chaos and daemons like they hate everything how they even hate each other and themselves individually.

 

In universe, Night Lords have used daemons as a tool and been corrupted for it more often then not. We know the majority at the time of the heresy disdain the Daemonic, we also know that since then there have been many Daemon Princes ascend, plenty of possessed and marked marines, and it’s in every single Night Lords story so far. For every main character that wants to stay pure, there are five more who don’t really care.

 

Lord of Night has a Heresy Era captain begrudgingly use chaos as a tool then reject it. And then we see the largest Night Lords warband descend on a planet just to find him. All the descriptions of said warband show them to be heavily corrupted. This is the largest warband the night lords have, with a Daemon Prince leading them.

 

Then you have the ADB series, it’s got a warband of marines where all of them save a couple is corrupted in some way. The main character has uncontrollable visions, the initial chaos lord is possessed, all the others have some kind of chaos taint or perversion, except seemingly Xarl and maybe Mercution. They even have discussions about how they need to recruit but don’t know if their geneseed is functional after being so tainted.

 

Then you have all these other BL stories. They all have corrupted marines in them. One has a monstrous Raptor, and a relatively “pure” one. The others just treat them like particularly sadistic standard CSM. We’re they particularly anti daemon, it’s not mentioned so we can assume they aren’t.

 

Then you have the codex fluff, many of those stories reference the Painted Count or Daemonic rituals used to corrupt planets, about as many as any other chaos Legion has by percentage, reference daemons or chaos being used.

 

In summary, the Night Lords aren’t pure, and in general are just fine with chaos. By the time of the 40k setting any disdain for the warp is an anachronistic aspect of individual marines or warbands, not indicative of the wider philosophy of the legion as a whole.

 

There really is no wrong way to do Night Lords, they are extremely diverse due to their fracture and internal conflicts. Maybe not in the way the Black Legion or Word Bearers are, but they absolutely have the entire breadth of the chaos range in their arsenal, and much more that doesn’t have rules or models. There are probably even Nurgled out Plague Night Lords somewhere, there are also multiple warbands that look very very similar to Night Lords with an occult twist, like the Dark Brotherhood (Tzeentch) and Night Killers(Slaanesh) albeit, and importantly, not canonically dedicated. They also were fully dedicated to Khorne in the fluff at one point, early in their development.

[BitsHammer]

My take from the ADB series is that the Night Lords are all on a slippery slope of damnation but each one is looking at the ones more damned in one way or another than they are and going "well at least I'm not like them".

 

Personally I'm building a core of NL out of HH stuff with the intent of using it in both games, while also working in more twisted modern Chaos units (like Warp Talons) who can still fit with the overall faction even if they stand out visually because of that "well at least I'm not as damned as they are" mentality.